Advertisement
If you have a new account but are having problems posting or verifying your account, please email us on hello@boards.ie for help. Thanks :)
Hello all! Please ensure that you are posting a new thread or question in the appropriate forum. The Feedback forum is overwhelmed with questions that are having to be moved elsewhere. If you need help to verify your account contact hello@boards.ie
Hi there,
There is an issue with role permissions that is being worked on at the moment.
If you are having trouble with access or permissions on regional forums please post here to get access: https://www.boards.ie/discussion/2058365403/you-do-not-have-permission-for-that#latest

I've been asked to sponsor my step-son in his confirmation.

  • 29-03-2013 4:29am
    #1
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,165 ✭✭✭Savage Tyrant


    Just looking for some advice on how some of you would handle this situation.
    I've attended masses on occasion for communions, funerals and weddings... Generally I just sit quietly and just observe but don't take part. I don't kneel or bless myself or say the prayers. But I certainly don't draw attention to myself for not doing it either if that makes sense.
    I was asked by my step son to be his sponsor and I felt touched that he'd asked me and so said yes.
    Only now as it gets closer I've thought about it more in the sense of from my own standpoint. Does it make me a hypocrit? Should I bless myself for the sake of not doing so drawing attention.

    Has anyone else been in this position? Even if you haven't, how do you think you'd deal with it?

    Thanks.


«1

Comments

  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 13,018 ✭✭✭✭jank


    If its important for your stepson I see no reason why you would not do it. Regardless on what you think of confirmation it's his day and in a lot of ways symbolises his start of adulthood and the end of his childhold. If you don't believe then 'blessing' yourself is just a stupid act and should be viewed on as part of a ritual. I think that you should feel very lucky that your stepson looks up to you so much to ask you of all people to be his sponsor. Forget about the rest of the none sense, that is the most important thing to take away from this event. Just go with it.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 4,372 ✭✭✭im invisible


    awe no OP, you've got to take a stand, show him you're a man of principles....


    :pac:

    go with it, it means nothing, it means what you want it to mean, probably means more to you than it does to a lot of 'Catholics'


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 35,953 ✭✭✭✭Hotblack Desiato


    jank wrote: »
    in a lot of ways symbolises his start of adulthood and the end of his childhold.

    No, that's when he rejects religion :)

    In Cavan there was a great fire / Judge McCarthy was sent to inquire / It would be a shame / If the nuns were to blame / So it had to be caused by a wire.



  • Closed Accounts Posts: 5,482 ✭✭✭Kidchameleon


    I don't get why atheists ever have this problem. If you don't believe it, what the hell difference does it make if you bless yourself etc.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 35,953 ✭✭✭✭Hotblack Desiato


    Because it helps perpetuate the power and influence of the RCC, remember, the people who told you it's a sin to have sex but not to cover up child rape.

    In Cavan there was a great fire / Judge McCarthy was sent to inquire / It would be a shame / If the nuns were to blame / So it had to be caused by a wire.



  • Advertisement
  • Closed Accounts Posts: 35,514 ✭✭✭✭efb


    Your stepson asked so it means something to him, it mean something to you as you said yes. That's more important than optics


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,658 ✭✭✭Nolimits


    I'm an atheist and I did it for my nephew. He knew I didn't believe in God and asked me anyway, I felt honoured.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,552 ✭✭✭Layinghen


    How wonderful that your stepson has chosen you to stand with him at what must be one of the few very public events in his life where he gets to chose who shares the 'limelight' with him. Grab this opportunity with both hands as those teen years are approaching and soon you will only be greeted with grunts. For your own peace of mind all that will be required of you will be to attend the service and stand next to the child 'at the big moment' with your hand on his shoulder.


  • Registered Users Posts: 143 ✭✭ColdTurkey


    If there was no such thing as religion we would still have a coming of age ceremony, explain to the kid that thats what you want to be apart of. Just because it was hijacked by a religion doesn't mean you don't get to share in it


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 863 ✭✭✭goldenhoarde


    :) think about it your stepson is choosing to have you be a part of what is no doubt to him one of the biggest days so far in his life. Leave aside the religion aspect and that to me would be massive honour. as others have said after this he'll be a teenager so "jump on board"


  • Advertisement
  • Moderators Posts: 51,893 ✭✭✭✭Delirium


    From the Vatican website regarding sponsors (worded for baptisms, but pretty sure the same rules apply to confirmations).
    Can. 874 §1. To be permitted to take on the function of sponsor a person must:

    1/ be designated by the one to be baptized, by the parents or the person who takes their place, or in their absence by the pastor or minister and have the aptitude and intention of fulfilling this function;

    2/ have completed the sixteenth year of age, unless the diocesan bishop has established another age, or the pastor or minister has granted an exception for a just cause;

    3/ be a Catholic who has been confirmed and has already received the most holy sacrament of the Eucharist and who leads a life of faith in keeping with the function to be taken on;

    4/ not be bound by any canonical penalty legitimately imposed or declared;

    5/ not be the father or mother of the one to be baptized.

    §2. A baptized person who belongs to a non-Catholic ecclesial community is not to participate except together with a Catholic sponsor and then only as a witness of the baptism.

    Source
    If they're not actually following the rules for confirmation, why not skip the mass and just have party/coming-of-age event?

    If you can read this, you're too close!



  • Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 25,558 Mod ✭✭✭✭Dades


    Enjoy the day. :)


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 5,482 ✭✭✭Kidchameleon


    ninja900 wrote: »
    Because it helps perpetuate the power and influence of the RCC, remember, the people who told you it's a sin to have sex but not to cover up child rape.

    So the OP blessing him/herself in a meaningless ceremony helps perpetuate RCC power? Mmmmmkaaayyyyyy...


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 31,967 ✭✭✭✭Sarky


    So the OP blessing him/herself in a meaningless ceremony helps perpetuate RCC power? Mmmmmkaaayyyyyy...

    Yes, it does. Do you know how this sort of thing works at all?


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,555 ✭✭✭Kinski


    Since you don't believe in God you'll be fine. If you're wrong you'll be going to hell...but you're going there anyway because you don't believe, you'll just probably end up in a slightly worse circle of it than you might otherwise have been in, not one of the ones with Hitler or anything, just one with unwed mothers and the like.

    In other words, your nephew wants you to do it so go ahead. See if you can give the bishop a surreptitious wink while you're up there.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,555 ✭✭✭Kinski


    ninja900 wrote: »
    Because it helps perpetuate the power and influence of the RCC, remember, the people who told you it's a sin to have sex but not to cover up child rape.

    I actually think it undermines their position; they've turned what's supposed to be one of the most solemn, profound moments in a Catholic's life (its rite-of-passage into adulthood) into a day out where kids dress up and get money from the relatives.

    This is why I have no interest in things like countmeout; if the Catholic Church is desperate enough to count me as one of their flock, it's a sign of their weakness, not their power and influence.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 19,218 ✭✭✭✭Bannasidhe


    Nolimits wrote: »
    I'm an atheist and I did it for my nephew. He knew I didn't believe in God and asked me anyway, I felt honoured.

    Me too.
    He's 30 now and a proud atheist too.

    He didn't believe in God then either so wanted a fellow non-believer at his back as it wasn't like he was given a choice by his mother (who is a divorced, re-married, contraception using, traveled to the UK with friends to support them when they were having abortions, pro same-sex marriage typical Irish Catholic).


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 7,132 ✭✭✭Just Like Heaven


    My little sister asked me to be her sponser for this confirmation thing last week, I'm about as atheist as Dawkins don't even go to mass on Christmas with my family anymore but did this one.

    The few times I have gone along to a mass I don't really do the praying and going up for communion thing either. However, all the sponsers are shelved up in the first three rows so I went up and got communion and kneeled when everybody else did, cause I wasn't sure if the sponser is supposed to be a Catholic or not (I was wondering, thanks Koth :P) + it felt like the bishop and the two priests were glaring at me the whole time :p

    There's nothing to it, the bishop isn't gonna test you before you the mass (probably).


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,165 ✭✭✭Savage Tyrant


    Thanks very much for the replies. It actually does help a lot.
    I feel much better about thinking of it as more of a "coming of age" ceremony rather than a strict religious one.
    He knows I'm an atheist and he knew so long before he asked me.

    I just didn't want to come across as a hypocrit as I never went ahead with my own confirmation as I had already rejected the notion of god by that age.

    Thanks again.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 25,848 ✭✭✭✭Zombrex


    I don't get why atheists ever have this problem. If you don't believe it, what the hell difference does it make if you bless yourself etc.

    Depends on how you view oaths.

    I personally (and I'm not judging the OP, this is just my personal view) think that you shouldn't swear to something that you are not going to do or don't believe in, that on a principle of honor (as in honoring your oath) that is not a good thing to do. I would think this whether it is a religious thing, or a national thing or a legal thing. This is especially true if you don't believe in the thing you are swearing to.

    When people say Whats the big deal you don't believe in it anyway, I think what they are actually saying is what is the big deal no one else believes in it either, the idea being that no one will care that you swore an oath because they don't think there is anything there anyway. Which raises the question why is anyone doing it in the first place?


  • Advertisement
  • Closed Accounts Posts: 4,339 ✭✭✭Artful_Badger


    Depends on your view of the RCC. If you think its just going along and humoiring others beliefs then you're fine.

    Personally I wouldn't be supporting it or a kid being dragged further into it.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 19,218 ✭✭✭✭Bannasidhe


    Zombrex wrote: »
    Depends on how you view oaths.

    I personally (and I'm not judging the OP, this is just my personal view) think that you shouldn't swear to something that you are not going to do or don't believe in, that on a principle of honor (as in honoring your oath) that is not a good thing to do. I would think this whether it is a religious thing, or a national thing or a legal thing. This is especially true if you don't believe in the thing you are swearing to.

    When people say Whats the big deal you don't believe in it anyway, I think what they are actually saying is what is the big deal no one else believes in it either, the idea being that no one will care that you swore an oath because they don't think there is anything there anyway. Which raises the question why is anyone doing it in the first place?

    They asked me to swear to teach him about Catholicism - I had no problem fulfilling that promise - auntie told him all about Catholicism - did I mention he is now an atheist? :P


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 25,848 ✭✭✭✭Zombrex


    Bannasidhe wrote: »
    They asked me to swear to teach him about Catholicism - I had no problem fulfilling that promise - auntie told him all about Catholicism - did I mention he is now an atheist? :P

    I'm not quire sure that is what the Catholic Church had in mind :D

    Bannasidhe - "Oh I'll teach him about Catholicism muh ha ha ha ha HA HA HA"



  • Closed Accounts Posts: 4,339 ✭✭✭Artful_Badger


    koth wrote: »
    From the Vatican website regarding sponsors (worded for baptisms, but pretty sure the same rules apply to confirmations).
    If they're not actually following the rules for confirmation, why not skip the mass and just have party/coming-of-age event?

    Exactly, just buy the kid his first razor and go out for a meal.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 19,218 ✭✭✭✭Bannasidhe


    Zombrex wrote: »
    I'm not quire sure that is what the Catholic Church had in mind :D

    Then they should have been more precise in what they asked me to promise. :cool:


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,016 ✭✭✭Tim Robbins


    I don't get why atheists ever have this problem. If you don't believe it, what the hell difference does it make if you bless yourself etc.

    Because some atheists have a problem with lieing. Others have issues supporting an organisation which raped and abused children and showed as little remorse as possible.

    Do you ever a problem telling lies or supporting such evil?


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,016 ✭✭✭Tim Robbins


    Just looking for some advice on how some of you would handle this situation.
    I've attended masses on occasion for communions, funerals and weddings... Generally I just sit quietly and just observe but don't take part. I don't kneel or bless myself or say the prayers. But I certainly don't draw attention to myself for not doing it either if that makes sense.
    I was asked by my step son to be his sponsor and I felt touched that he'd asked me and so said yes.
    Only now as it gets closer I've thought about it more in the sense of from my own standpoint. Does it make me a hypocrit? Should I bless myself for the sake of not doing so drawing attention.

    Has anyone else been in this position? Even if you haven't, how do you think you'd deal with it?

    Thanks.

    Jaysus that's a real tough one OP. Do you mind me the arrangement? I am guessing you are married to the Mother?

    And is your issue with the Catholic Church a moral one or just that you think they spout nonsense?


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,644 ✭✭✭✭lazygal


    I wouldn't do it. Myself and my other half have caused ripples in our family by not doing things like being godparents and other religious duties. We're both on the same page about it which makes things easier. I don't agree with the 'it means nothing to you, sure its only a rite of passage'. I would decline to do equivalent duties for children or adults of other faiths, and just because confirmation is just one of the things the majority of Irish schoolkids do doesn't change what we do. I don't want to cause hassle for the sake of it, but I'm not going to lie and give into family pressure to do something that makes me deeply uncomfortable.


    I wish an atheist in my family had said no to being my sponsor and explained the reasons why because it might have made my a la carte parents think a little about why they went along with the Catholic traditions. They sure as hell don't believe any of the teachings and weren't regular mass goers before all the scandals broke, but continue to do the hatches, matches and dispatches thing because 'sure what else would you do'. It would certainly have caused me to think about the religion thing a bit. I was a very conformist and compliant child and fell for all the nonsense about the significance of the religious side of the day without even thinking about it. I'd have appreciated an alternative view.


  • Posts: 0 CMod ✭✭✭✭ Zayn Tangy Vet


    I don't think I could do it tbh, it's getting up and lying and setting a bad example for this "coming of age" ceremony


  • Advertisement
  • Closed Accounts Posts: 7,132 ✭✭✭Just Like Heaven


    I can see where people who wouldn't do it are coming from, I despise the church as much as anybody could. I won't go to mass for basically anything unless it's a wedding or a funeral, I won't be married in a church, I've made it clear that if something were to happen to me I wouldn't want my burial/cremation have anything to do with a church, my kids won't be baptised etc. - I feel I've made my point.

    However in my case it was that the person doing the communion asked me of their own accord to do it, if it had been say, their parent (in my case, my parent :rolleyes:, perhaps I would have tried to wiggle out of it depending on who it was I was and if the child doing the communion knew I had been asked. Ultimately it's up to the OP, but because it was the child themselves that asked me, even I had to concede that one :p


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 16,197 ✭✭✭✭Pherekydes


    lazygal wrote: »
    I wouldn't do it. Myself and my other half have caused ripples in our family by not doing things like being godparents and other religious duties. We're both on the same page about it which makes things easier. I don't agree with the 'it means nothing to you, sure its only a rite of passage'. I would decline to do equivalent duties for children or adults of other faiths, and just because confirmation is just one of the things the majority of Irish schoolkids do doesn't change what we do. I don't want to cause hassle for the sake of it, but I'm not going to lie and give into family pressure to do something that makes me deeply uncomfortable.

    It's great that you have each other, but the OP is in an awkward position. Many step-children have difficult relationships with what may be a new parent, so saying no could have consequences for the relationship. People might get the idea that the OP doesn't care about their new family. On the other hand, the OP has a chance to cement their new relationship with their step-child.

    I say go for it.


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 4,991 ✭✭✭mathepac


    "The following would apply to a sponsor in the Roman Catholic Faith.
    There is a new form out [in the RC denomination] which the sponsor must solemnly affirm.


    " I am a registered participating member of the __[name of church _____ Church. I have received the Sacraments of Initiation - Baptism, Confirmation and Holy Eucharist. If married, I am married according to the regulations of the Catholic Church and any school age children are receiving religious formation.
    I weekly participate in Sunday Mass and give witness to my faith in Christ Jesus by receiving Eucharist and Reconciliation as often as possible. I actively strive to live out my commitment to Christ and the Community by my loving response to those with whom I come in daily contact.
    I realize the great responsibility of becoming a Sponsor for the Sacraments of Baptism and Confirmation, and I will give my support to the person I am sponsoring by my prayers and by the Christian example of my daily life."

    Sponsor's Signature (seal of church)
    ---
    The duties of the sponsor are to witness to their Catholic life by the lives they lead. Should the parents not attend Mass, they would be obliged to bring the child with them (as that is their witness to the faith.) They must assume the duties of the parents, should the child "go astray" or wander away from the church.
    A CONFIRMATION SPONSOR supports the confirmation candidate as they prepare to join the Catholic Church in full membership. The sponsor attends religion classes with the candidate. After the candidate is confirmed into full membership,
    the sponsor continues to be a spiritual advisor"

    The above is from an American Christian website, chosen at random. There are lots of other examples out there saying pretty much the same kind of thing.The bolding is mine for clarity purposes.

    If I understand some posters correctly, as atheists participating in a solemn rite of passage ceremony, they have no difficulty swearing a false oath (affirmation).What if they were being sworn in as witnesses in court cases, jurors, judges, officers of the court, Gardai, soldiers, medics, TDs or President and are asked to solemnly affirm to discharge their duties honestly, without fear or favour, etc, do I take it their solemn oaths (affirmations) are worthless and that they are unfit for any of the offices / jobs I listed as they cannot tell the simple truth - i.e. that they believe in nothing, not even their own word?How can a person who denies they have a spirit (or that there is any such thing) swear to be a spiritual advisor to a child approaching adulthood? The bit in bold above is "spiritual advisor" not religious advisor.

    So here we have a group of people who say that some of the reason they want no part in religion or religious organisations is to do with those organisations' lack of honesty and yet here they are behaving in exactly the same manner in this and possibly other cases. So in all your endeavours to differentiate yourselves from churches generally, here you are displaying exactly the same behaviours, and looking just he same as those you say you have no time for.

    Hipocracy? Well if I can't get a reasoned explanation for the contradictory behaviour, then I can only assume so.

    EDIT: I forgot to say that in my view a spiritual advisor gives a child an insight into what it means to be a good citizen, the difference between right and wrong, honesty and falsehood, what having a conscience means, respect for oneself and others, - you know all that quasi-religious / spiritual stuff that doesn't matter.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,417 ✭✭✭GRMA


    Thanks very much for the replies. It actually does help a lot.
    I feel much better about thinking of it as more of a "coming of age" ceremony rather than a strict religious one.
    He knows I'm an atheist and he knew so long before he asked me.

    I just didn't want to come across as a hypocrit as I never went ahead with my own confirmation as I had already rejected the notion of god by that age.

    Thanks again.



    You've said yes and its too late to back out anyway without stuff being messy... was a big deal that he wanted you to do it in the first place

    I'm sure its not the first time you've felt a bit silly doing something for your kids lol

    Enjoy the day :)


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 19,218 ✭✭✭✭Bannasidhe


    mathepac wrote: »
    "The following would apply to a sponsor in the Roman Catholic Faith.
    There is a new form out [in the RC denomination] which the sponsor must solemnly affirm.


    " I am a registered participating member of the __[name of church _____ Church. I have received the Sacraments of Initiation - Baptism, Confirmation and Holy Eucharist. If married, I am married according to the regulations of the Catholic Church and any school age children are receiving religious formation.
    I weekly participate in Sunday Mass and give witness to my faith in Christ Jesus by receiving Eucharist and Reconciliation as often as possible. I actively strive to live out my commitment to Christ and the Community by my loving response to those with whom I come in daily contact.
    I realize the great responsibility of becoming a Sponsor for the Sacraments of Baptism and Confirmation, and I will give my support to the person I am sponsoring by my prayers and by the Christian example of my daily life."

    Sponsor's Signature (seal of church)
    ---
    The duties of the sponsor are to witness to their Catholic life by the lives they lead. Should the parents not attend Mass, they would be obliged to bring the child with them (as that is their witness to the faith.) They must assume the duties of the parents, should the child "go astray" or wander away from the church.
    A CONFIRMATION SPONSOR supports the confirmation candidate as they prepare to join the Catholic Church in full membership. The sponsor attends religion classes with the candidate. After the candidate is confirmed into full membership,
    the sponsor continues to be a spiritual advisor"

    The above is from an American Christian website, chosen at random. There are lots of other examples out there saying pretty much the same kind of thing.The bolding is mine for clarity purposes.

    If I understand some posters correctly, as atheists participating in a solemn rite of passage ceremony, they have no difficulty swearing a false oath (affirmation).What if they were being sworn in as witnesses in court cases, jurors, judges, officers of the court, Gardai, soldiers, medics, TDs or President and are asked to solemnly affirm to discharge their duties honestly, without fear or favour, etc, do I take it their solemn oaths (affirmations) are worthless and that they are unfit for any of the offices / jobs I listed as they cannot tell the simple truth - i.e. that they believe in nothing, not even their own word?How can a person who denies they have a spirit (or that there is any such thing) swear to be a spiritual advisor to a child approaching adulthood? The bit in bold above is "spiritual advisor" not religious advisor.

    So here we have a group of people who say that some of the reason they want no part in religion or religious organisations is to do with those organisations' lack of honesty and yet here they are behaving in exactly the same manner in this and possibly other cases. So in all your endeavours to differentiate yourselves from churches generally, here you are displaying exactly the same behaviours, and looking just he same as those you say you have no time for.

    Hipocracy? Well if I can't get a reasoned explanation for the contradictory behaviour, then I can only assume so.


    EDIT: I forgot to say that in my view a spiritual advisor gives a child an insight into what it means to be a good citizen, the difference between right and wrong, honesty and falsehood, what having a conscience means, respect for oneself and others, - you know all that quasi-religious / spiritual stuff that doesn't matter.

    That wasn't what they asked me to swear to.

    Plus - how many who call themselves Catholic can honestly swear to that - or are you implying all of those who do not, for example, go to Mass every Sunday are already hypocrites so it doesn't much matter what they swear to? Are you going to ask them to explain themselves too?


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 5,482 ✭✭✭Kidchameleon


    Because some atheists have a problem with lieing. Others have issues supporting an organisation which raped and abused children and showed as little remorse as possible.

    Do you ever a problem telling lies or supporting such evil?

    I see your point about lying, but its in no way supporting the RCC. The stepson has made his decision, he's gonna go through with it no matter what I would imagine weather the OP follows through or not.


  • Advertisement
  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 4,991 ✭✭✭mathepac


    Bannasidhe wrote: »
    That wasn't what they asked me to swear to. ...
    I didn't ask if it was and didn't imply it was. As I said in my post it just happens to be one of "... lots of other examples ...". Read my post.
    Bannasidhe wrote: »
    ... Plus - how many who call themselves Catholic can honestly swear to that - or are you implying all of those who do not, for example, go to Mass every Sunday are already hypocrites so it doesn't much matter what they swear to? Are you going to ask them to explain themselves too?
    The OP was concerned that as a person espousing an atheistic belief-system he might appear hypocritical, read his post. For the reasons stated above, my answer to his concern is that he does, for the reasons I gave.

    If you want to discuss Christians / Catholics as hypocrites could I politely suggest you start your own thread. I am trying to give the OP my response on his chosen topic.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 4,339 ✭✭✭Artful_Badger


    I see your point about lying, but its in no way supporting the RCC. The stepson has made his decision, he's gonna go through with it no matter what I would imagine weather the OP follows through or not.

    How is participating in a confirmation as a sponsor of a child being confirmed not supporting the RCC ? Whether or not it will happen without him doesnt change anything. Mass will happen whether I'm there or not but by going to mass I would be supporting the RCC.

    The only way you can not support it is by taking no part in the perpetuation of their traditions by grooming the next generation of "believers". Sponsoring the kid IS supporting the RCC. Only question is whether that's an issue for the op. Doesnt seem to be as being there for the kid who wants him there in the traditions his mother wants him raised in is his highest priority.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 35,953 ✭✭✭✭Hotblack Desiato


    I see your point about lying, but its in no way supporting the RCC. The stepson has made his decision, he's gonna go through with it no matter what I would imagine weather the OP follows through or not.

    Taking part in their rituals absolutely is supporting the RCC. It normalises their nonsense (a 12 year old making a solemn commitment to a faith for life? Really?) and de-normalises irreligion.

    The children taking part in these rituals are not making a free choice to do so. They're doing it because they've been indoctrinated into it in school for years, it's the 'done thing' and opting out would often cause trouble at home and school, and if that's not enough there's the financial bribe :rolleyes:

    12 isn't coming of age either, but there's a good reason why they do it so young isn't there.

    I wish I'd had someone who I could honestly talk to about these sort of issues when I was a kid/teen, as someone who went through it all but never really believed any of it.

    In Cavan there was a great fire / Judge McCarthy was sent to inquire / It would be a shame / If the nuns were to blame / So it had to be caused by a wire.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 19,218 ✭✭✭✭Bannasidhe


    mathepac wrote: »
    I didn't ask if it was and didn't imply it was. As I said in my post it just happens to be one of "... lots of other examples ...". Read my post.
    The OP was concerned that as a person espousing an atheistic belief-system he might appear hypocritical, read his post. For the reasons stated above, my answer to his concern is that he does, for the reasons I gave.

    If you want to discuss Christians / Catholics as hypocrites could I politely suggest you start your own thread. I am trying to give the OP my response on his chosen topic.

    What exactly is an 'atheistic belief system' when it's at home Mr Come In Here Gunsblazing?

    Why did you feel the need to even supply us with a version that may or may not be the version used if it wasn't to imply that it is a fairly standard version with some minor changes but essentially the oath required?


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 4,991 ✭✭✭mathepac


    Bannasidhe wrote: »
    What exactly is an 'atheistic belief system' ...
    It's self-explanatory, unless someone wants to troll / stir up sedition.
    Bannasidhe wrote: »
    ... Mr Come In Here Gunsblazing? ...
    Ah yes, the total rationality of name-calling, a bit like the old banshee wailing and caterwauling in the night.
    Bannasidhe wrote: »
    ... Why did you feel the need to even supply us with a version that may or may not be the version used if it wasn't to imply that it is a fairly standard version with some minor changes but essentially the oath required?
    Well to be honest I felt no compelling need to supply anyone other than the OP, the one with the dilemma, with anything. I used that version of the affirmation chosen at random from a Christian website (see my original post) as it's fairly standard, allowing for some minor changes, but in essence the affirmation required.


  • Advertisement
  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 16,197 ✭✭✭✭Pherekydes


    mathepac wrote: »
    It's self-explanatory, unless someone wants to troll / stir up sedition.

    It's not self-explanatory. If it were self-explanatory an atheist wouldn't be asking what it was.

    I don't speak for other atheists, but my atheism comes from abandonment of any belief system.
    Ah yes, the total rationality of name-calling, a bit like the old banshee wailing and caterwauling in the night.

    Ironic, no?


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 35,953 ✭✭✭✭Hotblack Desiato


    mathepac wrote: »
    I used that version of the affirmation chosen at random from a Christian website (see my original post) as it's fairly standard, allowing for some minor changes, but in essence the affirmation required.

    Choosing a data point at random and then claiming it's representative of the data set = STATISTICAL FAIL.

    You may be right, but you can't be at all sure, can you :)

    In Cavan there was a great fire / Judge McCarthy was sent to inquire / It would be a shame / If the nuns were to blame / So it had to be caused by a wire.



  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 4,991 ✭✭✭mathepac


    Pherekydes wrote: »
    It's not self-explanatory ...
    It's self-explanatory.
    Pherekydes wrote: »
    ... If it were self-explanatory an atheist wouldn't be asking what it was.

    I don't speak for other atheists ...
    Ah, the beautiful irony of it
    Pherekydes wrote: »
    ... Ironic, no?
    I'm glad it wasn't lost on you, but it was a trifle obvious, Bannasidhe and banshee.


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 4,991 ✭✭✭mathepac


    ninja900 wrote: »
    Choosing a data point at random and then claiming it's representative of the data set = STATISTICAL FAIL.

    You may be right, but you can't be at all sure, can you :)
    So prove what I claimed and then prove me wrong rather than just troll. :P


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,585 ✭✭✭lynski



    I just didn't want to come across as a hypocrit as I never went ahead with my own confirmation as I had already rejected the notion of god by that age.

    Thanks again.
    I see a problem here: i dont think someone who has not been confirmed can stand as a sponsor, am i wrong?


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,165 ✭✭✭Savage Tyrant


    Jaysus that's a real tough one OP. Do you mind me the arrangement? I am guessing you are married to the Mother?

    And is your issue with the Catholic Church a moral one or just that you think they spout nonsense?

    I'm not married to his mother but we are living together. He's a middle child of 3 brothers. Their father isn't involved in their lives.
    I have 3 kids myself from a previous relationship and while they don't live with us, they are in our house 7 days out of 14 and they all consider themselves brothers and sisters.
    My objection to the church is 99% based on the fact I consider the idea of a supreme being to be utter nonsense. But I'd be lying if I said I'd no moral objection.
    Pherekydes wrote: »
    It's great that you have each other, but the OP is in an awkward position. Many step-children have difficult relationships with what may be a new parent, so saying no could have consequences for the relationship. People might get the idea that the OP doesn't care about their new family. On the other hand, the OP has a chance to cement their new relationship with their step-child.

    I say go for it.

    This is exactly how I felt. I was genuinely touched that he asked me. He is very close to one of his uncles (who is a believer, and also his godfather) I was full sure he'd be the one asked. When he asked me I really felt touched and felt it was a request I simply couldn't turn down. Nor did I want to turn it down.
    Besides, turning down the request would almost certainly have done more harm than good. He's quite a shy and sensitive young man and it would have certainly hurt his feelings if I'd said no.
    lynski wrote: »
    I see a problem here: i dont think someone who has not been confirmed can stand as a sponsor, am i wrong?

    That certainly is a condition of fulfilling the sponsorship role, but if I look at it as a "coming of age" ceremony then I have no problem about not fulfilling the religious criteria.

    My intention as of now, and after reading ALL the replies to this thread (and thanks again to everyone who commented) is to sit down with him over the coming days and explain to him that I will stand with him and that the promise I will make will be to raise him to be a good person, of good moral values but that it won't effect my belief that god doesn't exist. I will also not stand in his way of him practising his faith if he chooses to believe.


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,980 ✭✭✭Lucy8080


    Just do it.

    Forget the big conversations.

    The kid is just a kid.

    That's my advice.

    The world will still turn.

    Wait 'til he goes to disco's aged 13/14....that's when you're gonna be challenged as a parent/guardian.


    Get your credits in while you can....he ain't gonna be thinking of his confirmation day when suzie the fluzie flashes her eyes!

    And who knows,maybe Suzie will have Atheist tendancies,...her voice may carry a lot more weight....than your good self.


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,980 ✭✭✭Lucy8080


    btw,..

    There is a genuine problem if you have not been confirmed....as Lynski pointed out!

    You may be out of the game by default.

    I guess that would let you off the hook...and save the big conversation.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 19,218 ✭✭✭✭Bannasidhe


    mathepac wrote: »
    "The following would apply to a sponsor in the Roman Catholic Faith.
    ...
    [/B]The above is from an American Christian website, chosen at random. There are lots of other examples out there saying pretty much the same kind of thing.The bolding is mine for clarity purposes.

    Bannasidhe wrote: »
    That wasn't what they asked me to swear to.
    mathepac wrote: »
    I didn't ask if it was and didn't imply it was. As I said in my post it just happens to be one of "... lots of other examples ...". Read my post.
    .


    'There are lots of other examples out there saying pretty much the same kind of thing' is not the same as 'I didn't ask if it was and didn't imply it was. As I said in my post it just happens to be one of' - your first post pretty much did imply that that was the standard format.

    I stated that was not the format used at my nephew's confirmation, which was in Ireland not on some American website.
    mathepac wrote: »
    It's self-explanatory.
    Ah, the beautiful irony of it
    I'm glad it wasn't lost on you, but it was a trifle obvious, Bannasidhe and banshee.

    Well done. You can translate from Irish into English. Wanna lollipop?


  • Registered Users Posts: 3,063 ✭✭✭Kiwi in IE


    I don't get why atheists ever have this problem. If you don't believe it, what the hell difference does it make if you bless yourself etc.

    To me, to be seen looking like I believe religious nonsense in a public place in the presence of others, would be on a par with being seen lying on the ground drunk outside a pub with my knickers showing. Not an impression I want to give of myself.


  • Advertisement
Advertisement