I've been asked to sponsor my step-son in his confirmation.

Pherekydes

lazygal wrote: »

I wouldn't do it. Myself and my other half have caused ripples in our family by not doing things like being godparents and other religious duties. We're both on the same page about it which makes things easier. I don't agree with the 'it means nothing to you, sure its only a rite of passage'. I would decline to do equivalent duties for children or adults of other faiths, and just because confirmation is just one of the things the majority of Irish schoolkids do doesn't change what we do. I don't want to cause hassle for the sake of it, but I'm not going to lie and give into family pressure to do something that makes me deeply uncomfortable.

It's great that you have each other, but the OP is in an awkward position. Many step-children have difficult relationships with what may be a new parent, so saying no could have consequences for the relationship. People might get the idea that the OP doesn't care about their new family. On the other hand, the OP has a chance to cement their new relationship with their step-child.

I say go for it.

mathepac

"The following would apply to a sponsor in the Roman Catholic Faith.
There is a new form out [in the RC denomination] which the sponsor must solemnly affirm.


" I am a registered participating member of the __[name of church _____ Church. I have received the Sacraments of Initiation - Baptism, Confirmation and Holy Eucharist. If married, I am married according to the regulations of the Catholic Church and any school age children are receiving religious formation.
I weekly participate in Sunday Mass and give witness to my faith in Christ Jesus by receiving Eucharist and Reconciliation as often as possible. I actively strive to live out my commitment to Christ and the Community by my loving response to those with whom I come in daily contact.
I realize the great responsibility of becoming a Sponsor for the Sacraments of Baptism and Confirmation, and I will give my support to the person I am sponsoring by my prayers and by the Christian example of my daily life."

Sponsor's Signature (seal of church)
---
The duties of the sponsor are to witness to their Catholic life by the lives they lead. Should the parents not attend Mass, they would be obliged to bring the child with them (as that is their witness to the faith.) They must assume the duties of the parents, should the child "go astray" or wander away from the church.
A CONFIRMATION SPONSOR supports the confirmation candidate as they prepare to join the Catholic Church in full membership. The sponsor attends religion classes with the candidate. After the candidate is confirmed into full membership, the sponsor continues to be a spiritual advisor"

The above is from an American Christian website, chosen at random. There are lots of other examples out there saying pretty much the same kind of thing.The bolding is mine for clarity purposes.

If I understand some posters correctly, as atheists participating in a solemn rite of passage ceremony, they have no difficulty swearing a false oath (affirmation).What if they were being sworn in as witnesses in court cases, jurors, judges, officers of the court, Gardai, soldiers, medics, TDs or President and are asked to solemnly affirm to discharge their duties honestly, without fear or favour, etc, do I take it their solemn oaths (affirmations) are worthless and that they are unfit for any of the offices / jobs I listed as they cannot tell the simple truth - i.e. that they believe in nothing, not even their own word?How can a person who denies they have a spirit (or that there is any such thing) swear to be a spiritual advisor to a child approaching adulthood? The bit in bold above is "spiritual advisor" not religious advisor.

So here we have a group of people who say that some of the reason they want no part in religion or religious organisations is to do with those organisations' lack of honesty and yet here they are behaving in exactly the same manner in this and possibly other cases. So in all your endeavours to differentiate yourselves from churches generally, here you are displaying exactly the same behaviours, and looking just he same as those you say you have no time for.

Hipocracy? Well if I can't get a reasoned explanation for the contradictory behaviour, then I can only assume so.

EDIT: I forgot to say that in my view a spiritual advisor gives a child an insight into what it means to be a good citizen, the difference between right and wrong, honesty and falsehood, what having a conscience means, respect for oneself and others, - you know all that quasi-religious / spiritual stuff that doesn't matter.

GRMA

Savage Tyrant wrote: »

Thanks very much for the replies. It actually does help a lot.
I feel much better about thinking of it as more of a "coming of age" ceremony rather than a strict religious one.
He knows I'm an atheist and he knew so long before he asked me.

I just didn't want to come across as a hypocrit as I never went ahead with my own confirmation as I had already rejected the notion of god by that age.

Thanks again.

You've said yes and its too late to back out anyway without stuff being messy... was a big deal that he wanted you to do it in the first place

I'm sure its not the first time you've felt a bit silly doing something for your kids lol

Enjoy the day

Bannasidhe

mathepac wrote: »

"The following would apply to a sponsor in the Roman Catholic Faith.
There is a new form out [in the RC denomination] which the sponsor must solemnly affirm.


" I am a registered participating member of the __[name of church _____ Church. I have received the Sacraments of Initiation - Baptism, Confirmation and Holy Eucharist. If married, I am married according to the regulations of the Catholic Church and any school age children are receiving religious formation.
I weekly participate in Sunday Mass and give witness to my faith in Christ Jesus by receiving Eucharist and Reconciliation as often as possible. I actively strive to live out my commitment to Christ and the Community by my loving response to those with whom I come in daily contact.
I realize the great responsibility of becoming a Sponsor for the Sacraments of Baptism and Confirmation, and I will give my support to the person I am sponsoring by my prayers and by the Christian example of my daily life."

Sponsor's Signature (seal of church)
---
The duties of the sponsor are to witness to their Catholic life by the lives they lead. Should the parents not attend Mass, they would be obliged to bring the child with them (as that is their witness to the faith.) They must assume the duties of the parents, should the child "go astray" or wander away from the church.
A CONFIRMATION SPONSOR supports the confirmation candidate as they prepare to join the Catholic Church in full membership. The sponsor attends religion classes with the candidate. After the candidate is confirmed into full membership, the sponsor continues to be a spiritual advisor"

The above is from an American Christian website, chosen at random. There are lots of other examples out there saying pretty much the same kind of thing.The bolding is mine for clarity purposes.

If I understand some posters correctly, as atheists participating in a solemn rite of passage ceremony, they have no difficulty swearing a false oath (affirmation).What if they were being sworn in as witnesses in court cases, jurors, judges, officers of the court, Gardai, soldiers, medics, TDs or President and are asked to solemnly affirm to discharge their duties honestly, without fear or favour, etc, do I take it their solemn oaths (affirmations) are worthless and that they are unfit for any of the offices / jobs I listed as they cannot tell the simple truth - i.e. that they believe in nothing, not even their own word?How can a person who denies they have a spirit (or that there is any such thing) swear to be a spiritual advisor to a child approaching adulthood? The bit in bold above is "spiritual advisor" not religious advisor.

So here we have a group of people who say that some of the reason they want no part in religion or religious organisations is to do with those organisations' lack of honesty and yet here they are behaving in exactly the same manner in this and possibly other cases. So in all your endeavours to differentiate yourselves from churches generally, here you are displaying exactly the same behaviours, and looking just he same as those you say you have no time for.

Hipocracy? Well if I can't get a reasoned explanation for the contradictory behaviour, then I can only assume so.

EDIT: I forgot to say that in my view a spiritual advisor gives a child an insight into what it means to be a good citizen, the difference between right and wrong, honesty and falsehood, what having a conscience means, respect for oneself and others, - you know all that quasi-religious / spiritual stuff that doesn't matter.

That wasn't what they asked me to swear to.

Plus - how many who call themselves Catholic can honestly swear to that - or are you implying all of those who do not, for example, go to Mass every Sunday are already hypocrites so it doesn't much matter what they swear to? Are you going to ask them to explain themselves too?

Kidchameleon

Tim Robbins wrote: »

Because some atheists have a problem with lieing. Others have issues supporting an organisation which raped and abused children and showed as little remorse as possible.

Do you ever a problem telling lies or supporting such evil?

I see your point about lying, but its in no way supporting the RCC. The stepson has made his decision, he's gonna go through with it no matter what I would imagine weather the OP follows through or not.

mathepac

Bannasidhe wrote: »

That wasn't what they asked me to swear to. ...

I didn't ask if it was and didn't imply it was. As I said in my post it just happens to be one of "... lots of other examples ...". Read my post.

Bannasidhe wrote: »

... Plus - how many who call themselves Catholic can honestly swear to that - or are you implying all of those who do not, for example, go to Mass every Sunday are already hypocrites so it doesn't much matter what they swear to? Are you going to ask them to explain themselves too?

The OP was concerned that as a person espousing an atheistic belief-system he might appear hypocritical, read his post. For the reasons stated above, my answer to his concern is that he does, for the reasons I gave.

If you want to discuss Christians / Catholics as hypocrites could I politely suggest you start your own thread. I am trying to give the OP my response on his chosen topic.

Artful_Badger

Kidchameleon wrote: »

I see your point about lying, but its in no way supporting the RCC. The stepson has made his decision, he's gonna go through with it no matter what I would imagine weather the OP follows through or not.

How is participating in a confirmation as a sponsor of a child being confirmed not supporting the RCC ? Whether or not it will happen without him doesnt change anything. Mass will happen whether I'm there or not but by going to mass I would be supporting the RCC.

The only way you can not support it is by taking no part in the perpetuation of their traditions by grooming the next generation of "believers". Sponsoring the kid IS supporting the RCC. Only question is whether that's an issue for the op. Doesnt seem to be as being there for the kid who wants him there in the traditions his mother wants him raised in is his highest priority.

Hotblack Desiato

Kidchameleon wrote: »

I see your point about lying, but its in no way supporting the RCC. The stepson has made his decision, he's gonna go through with it no matter what I would imagine weather the OP follows through or not.

Taking part in their rituals absolutely is supporting the RCC. It normalises their nonsense (a 12 year old making a solemn commitment to a faith for life? Really?) and de-normalises irreligion.

The children taking part in these rituals are not making a free choice to do so. They're doing it because they've been indoctrinated into it in school for years, it's the 'done thing' and opting out would often cause trouble at home and school, and if that's not enough there's the financial bribe :rolleyes:

12 isn't coming of age either, but there's a good reason why they do it so young isn't there.

I wish I'd had someone who I could honestly talk to about these sort of issues when I was a kid/teen, as someone who went through it all but never really believed any of it.

Bannasidhe

mathepac wrote: »

I didn't ask if it was and didn't imply it was. As I said in my post it just happens to be one of "... lots of other examples ...". Read my post.
The OP was concerned that as a person espousing an atheistic belief-system he might appear hypocritical, read his post. For the reasons stated above, my answer to his concern is that he does, for the reasons I gave.

If you want to discuss Christians / Catholics as hypocrites could I politely suggest you start your own thread. I am trying to give the OP my response on his chosen topic.

What exactly is an 'atheistic belief system' when it's at home Mr Come In Here Gunsblazing?

Why did you feel the need to even supply us with a version that may or may not be the version used if it wasn't to imply that it is a fairly standard version with some minor changes but essentially the oath required?

mathepac

Bannasidhe wrote: »

What exactly is an 'atheistic belief system' ...

It's self-explanatory, unless someone wants to troll / stir up sedition.

Bannasidhe wrote: »

... Mr Come In Here Gunsblazing? ...

Ah yes, the total rationality of name-calling, a bit like the old banshee wailing and caterwauling in the night.

Bannasidhe wrote: »

... Why did you feel the need to even supply us with a version that may or may not be the version used if it wasn't to imply that it is a fairly standard version with some minor changes but essentially the oath required?

Well to be honest I felt no compelling need to supply anyone other than the OP, the one with the dilemma, with anything. I used that version of the affirmation chosen at random from a Christian website (see my original post) as it's fairly standard, allowing for some minor changes, but in essence the affirmation required.

Pherekydes

mathepac wrote: »

It's self-explanatory, unless someone wants to troll / stir up sedition.

It's not self-explanatory. If it were self-explanatory an atheist wouldn't be asking what it was.

I don't speak for other atheists, but my atheism comes from abandonment of any belief system.

Ah yes, the total rationality of name-calling, a bit like the old banshee wailing and caterwauling in the night.

Ironic, no?

Hotblack Desiato

mathepac wrote: »

I used that version of the affirmation chosen at random from a Christian website (see my original post) as it's fairly standard, allowing for some minor changes, but in essence the affirmation required.

Choosing a data point at random and then claiming it's representative of the data set = STATISTICAL FAIL.

You may be right, but you can't be at all sure, can you

mathepac

Pherekydes wrote: »

It's not self-explanatory ...

It's self-explanatory.

Pherekydes wrote: »

... If it were self-explanatory an atheist wouldn't be asking what it was.

I don't speak for other atheists ...

Ah, the beautiful irony of it

Pherekydes wrote: »

... Ironic, no?

I'm glad it wasn't lost on you, but it was a trifle obvious, Bannasidhe and banshee.

mathepac

ninja900 wrote: »

Choosing a data point at random and then claiming it's representative of the data set = STATISTICAL FAIL.

You may be right, but you can't be at all sure, can you

So prove what I claimed and then prove me wrong rather than just troll. :P

lynski

Savage Tyrant wrote: »

I just didn't want to come across as a hypocrit as I never went ahead with my own confirmation as I had already rejected the notion of god by that age.

Thanks again.

I see a problem here: i dont think someone who has not been confirmed can stand as a sponsor, am i wrong?

Savage Tyrant

Tim Robbins wrote: »

Jaysus that's a real tough one OP. Do you mind me the arrangement? I am guessing you are married to the Mother?

And is your issue with the Catholic Church a moral one or just that you think they spout nonsense?

I'm not married to his mother but we are living together. He's a middle child of 3 brothers. Their father isn't involved in their lives.
I have 3 kids myself from a previous relationship and while they don't live with us, they are in our house 7 days out of 14 and they all consider themselves brothers and sisters.
My objection to the church is 99% based on the fact I consider the idea of a supreme being to be utter nonsense. But I'd be lying if I said I'd no moral objection.

Pherekydes wrote: »

It's great that you have each other, but the OP is in an awkward position. Many step-children have difficult relationships with what may be a new parent, so saying no could have consequences for the relationship. People might get the idea that the OP doesn't care about their new family. On the other hand, the OP has a chance to cement their new relationship with their step-child.

I say go for it.

This is exactly how I felt. I was genuinely touched that he asked me. He is very close to one of his uncles (who is a believer, and also his godfather) I was full sure he'd be the one asked. When he asked me I really felt touched and felt it was a request I simply couldn't turn down. Nor did I want to turn it down.
Besides, turning down the request would almost certainly have done more harm than good. He's quite a shy and sensitive young man and it would have certainly hurt his feelings if I'd said no.

lynski wrote: »

I see a problem here: i dont think someone who has not been confirmed can stand as a sponsor, am i wrong?

That certainly is a condition of fulfilling the sponsorship role, but if I look at it as a "coming of age" ceremony then I have no problem about not fulfilling the religious criteria.

My intention as of now, and after reading ALL the replies to this thread (and thanks again to everyone who commented) is to sit down with him over the coming days and explain to him that I will stand with him and that the promise I will make will be to raise him to be a good person, of good moral values but that it won't effect my belief that god doesn't exist. I will also not stand in his way of him practising his faith if he chooses to believe.

Lucy8080

Just do it.

Forget the big conversations.

The kid is just a kid.

That's my advice.

The world will still turn.

Wait 'til he goes to disco's aged 13/14....that's when you're gonna be challenged as a parent/guardian.


Get your credits in while you can....he ain't gonna be thinking of his confirmation day when suzie the fluzie flashes her eyes!

And who knows,maybe Suzie will have Atheist tendancies,...her voice may carry a lot more weight....than your good self.

Lucy8080

btw,..

There is a genuine problem if you have not been confirmed....as Lynski pointed out!

You may be out of the game by default.

I guess that would let you off the hook...and save the big conversation.

Bannasidhe

mathepac wrote: »

"The following would apply to a sponsor in the Roman Catholic Faith.
...
[/B]The above is from an American Christian website, chosen at random. There are lots of other examples out there saying pretty much the same kind of thing.The bolding is mine for clarity purposes.

Bannasidhe wrote: »

That wasn't what they asked me to swear to.

mathepac wrote: »

I didn't ask if it was and didn't imply it was. As I said in my post it just happens to be one of "... lots of other examples ...". Read my post.
.

'There are lots of other examples out there saying pretty much the same kind of thing' is not the same as 'I didn't ask if it was and didn't imply it was. As I said in my post it just happens to be one of' - your first post pretty much did imply that that was the standard format.

I stated that was not the format used at my nephew's confirmation, which was in Ireland not on some American website.

mathepac wrote: »

It's self-explanatory.
Ah, the beautiful irony of it
I'm glad it wasn't lost on you, but it was a trifle obvious, Bannasidhe and banshee.

Well done. You can translate from Irish into English. Wanna lollipop?

Kiwi in IE

Kidchameleon wrote: »

I don't get why atheists ever have this problem. If you don't believe it, what the hell difference does it make if you bless yourself etc.

To me, to be seen looking like I believe religious nonsense in a public place in the presence of others, would be on a par with being seen lying on the ground drunk outside a pub with my knickers showing. Not an impression I want to give of myself.

Real Life

Im in the same situation, i have to do it for my brother.
I didnt want to do it but he pleaded with me so eventually i gave in. I still dont feel right about it though.

kylith

I feel that when I agreed to be godmother to my niece I agreed to also stand up at her confirmation. I wish now that I'd said no at her baptism, but it's too late now. The way I look at it is; if she'd decided to follow the Klingon traditions and asked me to hold her Bat'leth during her Age of Ascension ceremony I'd be honoured do it, regardless of my personal beliefs about Stovokor.

Dades

lynski wrote: »

I see a problem here: i dont think someone who has not been confirmed can stand as a sponsor, am i wrong?

Interesting, if true. Though the likelihood of there being any kind of check on this is slim. One might be asked in passing or more likely, it's just assumed if you're there - you're confirmed yourself.

Also, mathepac and Bannasidhe, the thread has moved on, lets all do the same.

Kinski

Savage Tyrant wrote: »

My objection to the church is 99% based on the fact I consider the idea of a supreme being to be utter nonsense. But I'd be lying if I said I'd no moral objection.

Funnily enough, I've yet to meet the person who approves of Catholicism's moral prescriptions - who's against sex before marriage, homosexuality, and abortion under any circumstances - but doesn't practice because they just can't swallow the whole "God exists" bit.

Bannasidhe

Dades wrote: »

Interesting, if true. Though the likelihood of there being any kind of check on this is slim. One might be asked in passing or more likely, it's just assumed if you're there - you're confirmed yourself.

Also, mathepac and Bannasidhe, the thread has moved on, lets all do the same.

Will do, was just exercising my right of reply.

mathepac

Dades wrote: »

... Also, mathepac and Bannasidhe, the thread has moved on, lets all do the same.

I anticipated your request, which of course I'll gladly comply with, and haven't posted since I copped on that I'd been suckered into a troll-fest some 10 / 12 posts ago. Thanks.

Lucy8080

Dades wrote: »

Interesting, if true. Though the likelihood of there being any kind of check on this is slim. One might be asked in passing or more likely, it's just assumed if you're there - you're confirmed yourself.

Also, mathepac and Bannasidhe, the thread has moved on, lets all do the same.

And this.

A jobsworth priest/stickler for the rules....will pull you.

Most likely it will be a don't ask/ don't tell situation.

If you are not pushed ...don't bother pushing back.

All that's left is your relationship with this kid.

And you seem to be doing fine...as far as i can see.

The day will pass....don't get all theological on his ass.

I think he is just telling you that you're o.k. in his book.

It's a good start for you both.

best wishes whatever the decision.

gregers85

My Nephew asked me to stand for him also a few weeks ago! i was really torn as to what to do! after a week or so had gone by he had asked me a couple of times nd i taught feck it, it obviously means a lot to him to have me do it so i bit my tongue for an hour nd got on with it! I put a giant X through the prayer on his card and wrote under it: "who cares, MONEY!!! WooHoo!!" got a good kick out of it haha. I didnt go through all the usually BS, Simon Says Sit, Simon Says Stand, Simon Says kneel....... just sat there, (getting some disgruntled faces from other sponsors haha) absint minded and dreamed of the pub afterwards haha

Brian Shanahan

Kidchameleon wrote: »

I don't get why atheists ever have this problem. If you don't believe it, what the hell difference does it make if you bless yourself etc.

If you were living in a country which was religiously tolerant, but where the vast majority of the people followed a religion where one of the most common rituals was the self-slashing of the pecs with an obsidian knife, would you follow this practise if it wasn't part of your beliefs, just to fit in?

So, why do you demand that we athiests do what you refuse to do yourself?

Sarky

If you were to go ahead with it, what would happen if you later pointed out that you weren't at all qualified to sponser the lad? Would the confirmation still be valid? Would they undo it or require it to be redone? Would they just lie to themselves and pretend you were qualified for the sake of convenience? I'd love to know.