Garda Sgts facing disciplinary hearing after walkout.

SB2013 · 27-03-2013 03:39PM

dj jarvis wrote: »

Sorry garda - but put up or shut up, you signed the contract - no point whinging about it now.

Just a point on that. Contracts work both ways.

dj jarvis · 27-03-2013 03:41PM

Lelantos wrote: »

Actually, the gardai are answerable to the people of Ireland, that's their contract,,the sooner the politicians are taken out of the equation the better. Shatter & his cronies are trying to keep them in check, but a time will come when the gardai will turn on their paymasters, when that day comes it will lead to a mini revolution & the politicians will then realize that the gardai are not their personal enforcement agency

yea , and their contract with the people states they cant be union members or strike - its a simple as that

shatter has to keep them in check , its his job - and if they do " turn on their paymasters " the other arms of security and defense will have to tackle them.
as you point out they work for the people, and if they turn against the state , they turn against you and me - for what ? over pay and conditions ? if they are not happy , leave - others would be delighted

im sorry , but your post is wishful rabble rousing but un workable. in the real world - if they step out of line , they will and should be jumped on and hard , becasue if you dont - bye bye security of the state.

Boombastic · 27-03-2013 03:42PM

SB2013 wrote: »

Just a point on that. Contracts work both ways.

So does bench marking

dj jarvis · 27-03-2013 03:44PM

SB2013 wrote: »

Just a point on that. Contracts work both ways.

they do - and im sure there is a clause that allows the state to change wage levels and perks as needed , no public sector worker is immune from this **** storm , dont see why they should be

lets face it , their own people walked out before the talks , and now they are regretting it

they are public workers - paid for by us - cuts need to be made - sorry lads
dont like it then leave.

Paulzx · 27-03-2013 03:45PM

NiallSparky wrote: »

The loyalty of the Garda Commissioner should be to the State, not his subordinates.

Then why is it apparent his loyalty is to Shatter?

No senior manager in any organisation can run it efficently if he loses his employees respect. Management don't have to be popular but they do need to have the respect of the people they manage if the organisation is to function.

Senior Garda management quite obviously do not have this respect. They can enforce discipline all they want but when management are functioning correctly discipline generally takes care of itself no matter where you work.

Without a change of minister and commissioner i can't see AGS as a body coming back from this. Trust has completely broken down

Paulzx · 27-03-2013 03:46PM

Boombastic wrote: »

So does bench marking

Benchmarking has been more than reversed at this stage for many sectors

Larbre34 · 27-03-2013 03:47PM

Paulzx wrote: »

Then why is it apparent his loyalty is to Shatter?

No senior manager in any organisation can run it efficently if he loses his employees respect. Management don't have to be popular but they do need to have the respect of the people they manage if the organisation is to function.

Senior Garda management quite obviously do not have this respect. They can enforce discipline all they want but when management are functioning correctly discipline generally takes care of itself no matter where you work.

Without a change of minister and commissioner i can't see AGS as a body coming back from this. Trust has completely broken down

Well done Sir, you have just got to the root of public sector intransigence in one sentence.

dj jarvis · 27-03-2013 03:48PM

Midnight Sundance wrote: »

Taking aside any opinions on their wages etc, I think they should be allowed to voice their opinions.
( who is to say that they all didn't have a bad dose of diarrhoea and needed the bathroom urgently??)

but they can voice their opinion , they have the " garda union" for that, knowing full well when they joined that they CANT HAVE A UNION OR STRIKE
They voted in their association , who walked out , so they lost their chance at voicing their opposition to the cuts

cant have it both ways

It will be a international disgrace on the force if they "strike"

Lelantos · 27-03-2013 03:49PM

dj jarvis wrote: »

yea , and their contract with the people states they cant be union members or strike - its a simple as that

shatter has to keep them in check , its his job - and if they do " turn on their paymasters " the other arms of security and defense will have to tackle them.
as you point out they work for the people, and if they turn against the state , they turn against you and me - for what ? over pay and conditions ? if they are not happy , leave - others would be delighted

im sorry , but your post is wishful rabble rousing but un workable. in the real world - if they step out of line , they will and should be jumped on and hard , becasue if you dont - bye bye security of the state.

Actually, when the people march on the dáil for cutting old people's medical cards etc, acts that were illegal, the gardai should be at the forefront of these marches. Their remit is to protect the people, not the unjust laws & edicts of the privileged. he laws of the state are one thing, the whims of corrupt politicians are another thing entirely

HondaSami · 27-03-2013 03:53PM

dj jarvis wrote: »

dont like it then leave.

why leave if you like the job? Why don't politicians take more cuts, like expenses for example, why are they not taking a bigger hit?

brandon_flowers · 27-03-2013 03:54PM

It wasn't as if they slipped out to have a piss, they obviously made themselves noticed. They should be disciplined. Fairly spineless thing to do if you ask me. Why not put up their hand and ask the difficult questions? Staying stum or walking out is hardly is not going to achieve anything. It is downright disrespectful actually.

If you walked out of a speech by your company CEO regardless of circumstance you wouldn't be coming back.

VinLieger · 27-03-2013 03:57PM

brandon_flowers wrote: »

It wasn't as if they slipped out to have a piss, they obviously made themselves noticed. They should be disciplined. Fairly spineless thing to do if you ask me. Why not put up their hand and ask the difficult questions? Staying stum or walking out is hardly is not going to achieve anything. It is downright disrespectful actually.

If you walked out of a speech by your company CEO regardless of circumstance you wouldn't be coming back.

So what? That was the objective, are you saying the gardai have less rights than every other person in this country?
Lol you think a CEO could fire someone for walking out of a speech and not end up in court?

Larbre34 · 27-03-2013 03:58PM

The AGSI and GRA should simply cease engagement on all matters of change management and reform, and end invitations to Ministers and Command staff to their conferences or other gatherings.

If those Sergeants, or that Garda (who asked questions of Enda as a voter in his private time) are disciplined by 'fines, suspension and a reduction in rank' then it really is time we took a look at personal liberty and the direction this state is taking. There are dangerous precedents afoot here. You might even say Grotesque, Unbelievable, Bizarre and Unprecedented.......

Going Forward · 27-03-2013 04:00PM

If the Gaurds, nurses, teachers etc. are so unhappy with their pay etc, they are free to offer their talents elsewhere, resign, and get a sackable non secure non pensionable job in the private sector.

I also am fed up listening to the very misleading claims that each gaurd works every Christmas day along with a picture being painted that each and every gaurd is in imminent danger at all times

They do not, and hopefully will not reach harm, but they are now finding the same qualified sympathy from much of the general public to whom they displayed general arrogance whilst enthusiastically dishing out points for minor RT misdemeanours instead of engaging and constructively warning the general public.

Mix this in with recent and past high profile corruption cases and the wealth of local corruption that occurs below the radar and the fact that each and every ordinary person has accepted cuts that they do not agree with, well we are all in the same boat.

When Garda recruitment begins again there will be a stampede to fill such undesirable positions.

BTW, I'd love know what the 24/7 group (they dont work 24 hours a day btw) make of the very generous volunteers up and down the country who give up their time free of charge, from the likes of the RNLI to the Order of Malta etc. to selflessly serve the community .

They must really be dumb

dj jarvis · 27-03-2013 04:03PM

Lelantos wrote: »

Actually, when the people march on the dáil for cutting old people's medical cards etc, acts that were illegal, the gardai should be at the forefront of these marches. Their remit is to protect the people, not the unjust laws & edicts of the privileged. he laws of the state are one thing, the whims of corrupt politicians are another thing entirely

i think you misunderstand their remit
laws passed by the house , signed into law by the president are the laws they must enforce and protect.

they might have sympathy for the marchers , but they are paid to not do anything about their sympathy's.

they cant and should not act on public opinion.
you got a issue with the laws being passed ? then start a party and start making your own laws - and those laws the garda would have to enforce

you cant have it both ways

Mountjoy Mugger · 27-03-2013 04:05PM

Going Forward wrote: »

BTW, I'd love know what the 24/7 group (they dont work 24 hours a day btw) make of the very generous volunteers up and down the country who give up their time free of charge, from the likes of the RNLI to the Order of Malta etc. to selflessly serve the community .

They must really be dumb

Many of these generous volunteers are also in the Public Service - to selflessly serve the community as you so eloquently put it.

dj jarvis · 27-03-2013 04:07PM

HondaSami wrote: »

why leave if you like the job? Why don't politicians take more cuts, like expenses for example, why are they not taking a bigger hit?

becasue they signed up for it knowing they would have little say if any if cuts came down the line.

if they want politicians to take a bigger hit , then make their voices heard at the ballot box.

that is how democracy works - not by holding the state to ransom,
they are doing themselves NO favors with this course of action.

the government wont and cant let this slide.

as for the question of why leave , if your wages are cut to a point where you think the job is not worth it , then im sorry but you leave.
that is how it works

brandon_flowers · 27-03-2013 04:08PM

VinLieger wrote: »

So what? That was the objective, are you saying the gardai have less rights than every other person in this country?
Lol you think a CEO could fire someone for walking out of a speech and not end up in court?

The Gardai should of course have equal rights, maybe even more rights but walking out of a speech by your employer is not a right. I can guarantee it breaches a code of conduct and that is the reason that sanctions are being mentioned.

And Lol at you if you think the majority of unfair dismissals ever make a court room.

Larbre34 · 27-03-2013 04:14PM

Going Forward wrote: »

If the Gaurds, nurses, teachers etc. are so unhappy with their pay etc, they are free to offer their talents elsewhere, resign, and get a sackable non secure non pensionable job in the private sector.

I also am fed up listening to the very misleading claims that each gaurd works every Christmas day along with a picture being painted that each and every gaurd is in imminent danger at all times

They do not, and hopefully will not reach harm, but they are now finding the same qualified sympathy from much of the general public to whom they displayed general arrogance whilst enthusiastically dishing out points for minor RT misdemeanours instead of engaging and constructively warning the general public.

Mix this in with recent and past high profile corruption cases and the wealth of local corruption that occurs below the radar and the fact that each and every ordinary person has accepted cuts that they do not agree with, well we are all in the same boat.

When Garda recruitment begins again there will be a stampede to fill such undesirable positions.

BTW, I'd love know what the 24/7 group (they dont work 24 hours a day btw) make of the very generous volunteers up and down the country who give up their time free of charge, from the likes of the RNLI to the Order of Malta etc. to selflessly serve the community .

They must really be dumb

Eh, perhaps two hours a week, with involvement usually coming about as an extension to a hobby or family involvement - mountaineering, sailing etc. People are as attracted to these groups for their social interactive aspect as the nature of the volunteer work itself. Professional emergency workers deal with the good bad and ugly every shift they report for. As a comparison its not even a different league, its a different sport........

Lelantos · 27-03-2013 04:15PM

dj jarvis wrote: »

i think you misunderstand their remit
laws passed by the house , signed into law by the president are the laws they must enforce and protect.

they might have sympathy for the marchers , but they are paid to not do anything about their sympathy's.

they cant and should not act on public opinion.
you got a issue with the laws being passed ? then start a party and start making your own laws - and those laws the garda would have to enforce

you cant have it both ways

Again, incorrect. They are acting on the will of the incumbent govt. The mistreatment of the orderly, the shell debacle in mayo, there are many more, these are not laws that have been signed by our president, these are the acts of corruption by politicians & expect their "personal" police force to enforce their edicts. The gardai must remain separate from the govt, there has to be a line drawn & when politicians try to overstep their remit, they should be slapped down.

testicle · 27-03-2013 04:18PM

Mr Jinx wrote: »

They were off duty and attending a conference of their rep body! I doubt standing up and walking out off a room has broken any discipline regulations.

Gardai are never off duty...

dj jarvis · 27-03-2013 04:18PM

Lelantos wrote: »

Again, incorrect. They are acting on the will of the incumbent govt. The mistreatment of the orderly, the shell debacle in mayo, there are many more, these are not laws that have been signed by our president, these are the acts of corruption by politicians & expect their "personal" police force to enforce their edicts. The gardai must remain separate from the govt, there has to be a line drawn & when politicians try to overstep their remit, they should be slapped down.

well that quote there ends my debate with you

when you are back in the real world, drop me a line,
dont have time for this hyperbole.

Going Forward · 27-03-2013 04:22PM

Larbre34 wrote: »

Eh, perhaps two hours a week, with involvement usually coming about as an extension to a hobby or family involvement - mountaineering, sailing etc. People are as attracted to these groups for their social interactive aspect as the nature of the volunteer work itself. Professional emergency workers deal with the good bad and ugly every shift they report for. As a comparison its not even a different league, its a different sport........

They knew they werent going to be helping little old ladies cross the road or fetching cats from trees 24/7 when they applied.

VinLieger · 27-03-2013 04:28PM

brandon_flowers wrote: »

The Gardai should of course have equal rights, maybe even more rights but walking out of a speech by your employer is not a right. I can guarantee it breaches a code of conduct and that is the reason that sanctions are being mentioned.

And Lol at you if you think the majority of unfair dismissals ever make a court room.

Whatever you know what i meant, also its not the garda commisioner suggesting disciplinary action its shatter who has absolutely NO remit for suggesting such a thing, and hes just pissed cus they all arent sucking his dick like his twisted version of reality thinks they should

VinLieger · 27-03-2013 04:29PM

Bah double post

Death and Taxes · 27-03-2013 04:30PM

dj jarvis wrote: »

part of the job contract is no strike , 100% disciplined
now saying that i think they have a point , but you CAN NOT have garda going on strike , walking away from talks or snubbing ministers ,

they are well paid in solid jobs and retire REAL early , all that is asked of them is to keep the peace of the state , ****ty job at times ,and even might get killed ( more road worker get killed than garda , but road workers dont get the very good remuneration that garda do )

but they know when the leave templemore they have to obey orders , like them or not

If they are unhappy with the pay and condition then leave the force , shatter would love it if loads left , sure he is trying to get rid of loads,

the Defence forces would not and should not do this "blue flu" out of respect for the chain of command , becasue once that is broken - it can only lead to disorder come times of deployment

Sorry garda - but put up or shut up, you signed the contract - no point whinging about it now.

You choose to singularly omit the fact the Defence Forces are allowed into negotations, if they are allowed to negotiate then why are the Gardai not similarly allowed?

Death and Taxes · 27-03-2013 04:33PM

dj jarvis wrote: »

they do - and im sure there is a clause that allows the state to change wage levels and perks as needed , no public sector worker is immune from this **** storm , dont see why they should be

lets face it , their own people walked out before the talks , and now they are regretting it

they are public workers - paid for by us - cuts need to be made - sorry lads
dont like it then leave.

The were barred from the talks so how could they have waqlked out when they were never allowed in?
Ah, dont bother answering, shure why let the truth get in the way of your misrepresentative rant, Mr Shatter!

dj jarvis · 27-03-2013 04:36PM

WileyCoyote wrote: »

You choose to singularly omit the fact the Defence Forces are allowed into negotations, if they are allowed to negotiate then why are the Gardai not similarly allowed?

Im forgetting nothing,

They are allowed the VERY SAME "negotiating" rights as the the defense forces,
the difference is , the PDFORRA did not walk out of the talk in a huff

and they are not allowed to negotiate anything - they are invited to pay talks as a Courtney and nothing else.

They know the limits of their "negotiating" powers , as do PDFORRA
FFS, they walked out and now it has gone to **** they are whinging.

If as a garda, you are not happy that you CANT be represented at union pay talks table , then you should review your situation and look for another job.

The Muppet · 27-03-2013 04:36PM

dj jarvis wrote: »

part of the job contract is no strike , 100% disciplined
now saying that i think they have a point , but you CAN NOT have garda going on strike , walking away from talks or snubbing ministers ,

they are well paid in solid jobs and retire REAL early , all that is asked of them is to keep the peace of the state , ****ty job at times ,and even might get killed ( more road worker get killed than garda , but road workers dont get the very good remuneration that garda do )

but they know when the leave templemore they have to obey orders , like them or not

If they are unhappy with the pay and condition then leave the force , shatter would love it if loads left , sure he is trying to get rid of loads,

the Defence forces would not and should not do this "blue flu" out of respect for the chain of command , becasue once that is broken - it can only lead to disorder come times of deployment

Sorry garda - but put up or shut up, you signed the contract - no point whinging about it now.

Oh I hadn't realised these 4 Gardai went on strike, I thought they had just walked out of a meeting

dj jarvis · 27-03-2013 04:37PM

The Muppet wrote: »

Oh I hadn't realised these 4 Gardai went on strike, I thought they had just walked out of a meeting

i was not talking about the 4 garda who walked out , but the bigger threat to strike

but you knew this didn't you

Garda Sgts facing disciplinary hearing after walkout.

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