'Dog attack' girl found dead in Atherton house

Cupcake_Crisis · 26-03-2013 11:56PM

Any dog that has been abused or ill treated has the potential to snap, not just breeds that 'look dangerous'. Nobody knows the conditions these dogs were kept in.

wolfpawnat · 26-03-2013 11:57PM

Cupcake_Crisis wrote: »

Any dog that has been abused or ill treated has the potential to snap, not just breeds that 'look dangerous'. Nobody knows the conditions these dogs were kept in.

At least two staffs (an energetic breed) and two mastiffs (two large dogs) in one house, you can imagine the poor things weren't well looked after!

Dozen Wicked Words · 26-03-2013 11:58PM

Okay, so not going to win the argument here as a staffy or a mastiff apparently aren't more muscular and more powerful than Labrador/Retriever, that has been totally imagined. They also aren't breeds which young men with too much testosterone and not enough brain cells are more likely to own and train incorrectly. These young men choose this kind of dog for their lovely eye colour and their glossy coats.

garv123 · 27-03-2013 12:01AM

Dozen Wicked Words wrote: »

Okay, so not going to win the argument here as a staffy or a mastiff apparently aren't more muscular and more powerful than Labrador/Retriever, that has been totally imagined. They also aren't breeds which young men with too much testosterone and not enough brain cells are more likely to own and train incorrectly. These young men choose this kind of dog for their lovely eye colour and their glossy coats.

The muscle of the dog made no difference here.. there was 5 of them and 5 mid sized dogs could kill a 14 year old girl..

Most of the young men go for pitbulls not mastiffs. Mastiffs are gentle giants the majority of the time.

Cupcake_Crisis · 27-03-2013 12:01AM

wolfpawnat wrote: »

At least two staffs (an energetic breed) and two mastiffs (two large dogs) in one house, you can imagine the poor things weren't well looked after!

I'd say there's a lot more to this story than meets the eye. The sad part is there will be thousands of placid, well trained Staffies and Mastiffs put down out of fear because of this. It's very , very tragic, but i'd nearly bet my house that it was entirely preventable.

wolfpawnat · 27-03-2013 12:05AM

Dozen Wicked Words wrote: »

Okay, so not going to win the argument here as a staffy or a mastiff apparently aren't more muscular and more powerful than Labrador/Retriever, that has been totally imagined. They also aren't breeds which young men with too much testosterone and not enough brain cells are more likely to own and train incorrectly. These young men choose this kind of dog for their lovely eye colour and their glossy coats.

Have you walked a staff and a lab? They both are well able to pull. But hell so is my uncles JRT who is tiny and he would nearly pull a sled!

We are all saying here it is idiotic men and women with single figure IQ's that are the reason this breed has a bad name with their "tough pit bull like" features, but a Pitty and a Staff are not the same breed, only related. And Pits in the right hands are a great dog, just not recommended for young families like their staffie cousin.

Mastiffs aren't even muscular, they are just lumbering, seriously, I have never met a breed more likely to bowl you over just walking lazily. I rather see one of them trudging towards me than a hyper collie or lab!

wolfpawnat · 27-03-2013 12:09AM

Cupcake_Crisis wrote: »

I'd say there's a lot more to this story than meets the eye. The sad part is there will be thousands of placid, well trained Staffies and Mastiffs put down out of fear because of this. It's very , very tragic, but i'd nearly bet my house that it was entirely preventable.

I used walk my neighbours staff while also with my 3yo in a buggy, people thought I was insane, "it'll savage him" we used also mind the dog when the owner was away, seriously, the most dangerous think the fella ever did was sit near my son at meal times in hope of a dropped bit of spud, never once was a bad dog, well trained and a total sweetie. They had to rehome him and if I wasn't pregnant I would have snapped him up in seconds!!!!

But sure, what good is talking about the millions of good dogs when so many are willing to condemn them for the actions of few! Some dogs are just bad eggs, others are made that way by circumstance, but lets not let fact get in the way of a bit of sensationalism now shall we?:rolleyes:

Cupcake_Crisis · 27-03-2013 12:13AM

wolfpawnat wrote: »

I used walk my neighbours staff while also with my 3yo in a buggy, people thought I was insane, "it'll savage him" we used also mind the dog when the owner was away, seriously, the most dangerous think the fella ever did was sit near my son at meal times in hope of a dropped bit of spud, never once was a bad dog, well trained and a total sweetie. They had to rehome him and if I wasn't pregnant I would have snapped him up in seconds!!!!

But sure, what good is talking about the millions of good dogs when so many are willing to condemn them for the actions of few! Some dogs are just bad eggs, others are made that way by circumstance, but lets not let fact get in the way of a bit of sensationalism now shall we?:rolleyes:

A neighbour of mine has a Staffie, i walk him with my two dogs all the time, an absolute gem of a dog. I'd go as far as saying he's friendlier and more patient with kids than my female bichon, and no one would blink an eye at a bichon sitting beside a child.

starlings · 27-03-2013 12:15AM

Logical_Bear wrote: »

its not cheap sh1t.You post clueless,knee jerk bolloxology that might get POTD on the daily mail forums and nowhere else.

What,if anything,do you know about staffordshire bull terriers?
My parents have had them as pets/bred them for over 40 years.There's been 3 generations of kids in the house and guess what?No maulings.none.nada.zip(running out of words here..) which is strange for an apparrently vicious breed of dog you and the other kneejerkers that pollute AH threads seem to think they are.

Cant comment on bull mastiffs,but the way dogs are raised and treated play a BIG part in the way they behave around people and other pets.

Even 'fighting dogs' like pitbulls and so-called ban dogs go through horrific training to fight..their bad traits are brought to the fore on purpose.Google it if ye can be bothered

Having said that some dogs are better 'family' pets than others.

I can see why you'd be defensive about the dogs you had as pets growing up, but unfortunately all I know about these dogs is that I see them snarling on the leashes of people who seem to use them as a scobe-mascot, so I have the opposite prejudice.

I never had dogs as a child, but I grew up in a rural area and was taught how to "introduce myself" to them properly, and how to recognise when they were friendly and what to do if they were not. This went for the working sheepdogs and the oul peata who'd follow you home from school. Seems lots of people are brought up, unlike us, not knowing that dogs are not toys.

Cupcake_Crisis · 27-03-2013 12:19AM

starlings wrote: »

I can see why you'd be defensive about the dogs you had as pets growing up, but unfortunately all I know about these dogs is that I see them snarling on the leashes of people who seem to use them as a scobe-mascot, so I have the opposite prejudice.

Unlike us, a dog can't chose what's on the end of it's leash. If you looked a bit further afield you'd see that the one's snarling are very much in the minority.

Icyseanfitz · 27-03-2013 12:19AM

Dozen Wicked Words wrote: »

Its "their turn" because they have killed someone, if and when chihuahua or great dane kill I presume it will be "their turn". My point is that of course a dog if trained badly or mistreated can be vicious, but not all dogs have the same inherent power that the dogs in this attack have.

all dogs are potentially lethal when in a pack, doesnt matter if its a terrier or an irish wolfhound,
its all in how you raise the dog and treat it nothing at all to do with specific breed, the owners of these animals clearly did a piss poor job

RIP to the poor kid, horrible way to go id imagine

wolfpawnat · 27-03-2013 12:20AM

starlings wrote: »

I can see why you'd be defensive about the dogs you had as pets growing up, but unfortunately all I know about these dogs is that I see them snarling on the leashes of people who seem to use them as a scobe-mascot, so I have the opposite prejudice..

I have to ask, where are you living? I have never seen a snarling Staff or mastiff. And I have seen many of them and am living in anything but the classiest area of Dublin.

starlings · 27-03-2013 12:26AM

Cupcake_Crisis wrote: »

I'd say there's a lot more to this story than meets the eye. The sad part is there will be thousands of placid, well trained Staffies and Mastiffs put down out of fear because of this. It's very , very tragic, but i'd nearly bet my house that it was entirely preventable.

absolutely preventable. Horrible thing to happen, and that picture of her sweet face in the link is heartbreaking.

Cupcake_Crisis wrote: »

Unlike us, a dog can't chose what's on the end of it's leash. If you looked a bit further afield you'd see that the one's snarling are very much in the minority.

I blame the snarling on the owner, of course, but I'm still wary of the snarling dog. I'm not really a "dog person" so I take each one as it is. If anything, I favour bigger dogs as the hyper little breeds annoy me.

starlings · 27-03-2013 12:30AM

wolfpawnat wrote: »

I have to ask, where are you living? I have never seen a snarling Staff or mastiff. And I have seen many of them and am living in anything but the classiest area of Dublin.

I'm going to have to do a quick google here!

The types I was referring to are stocky and have big jaws, but the main point is that they are being yanked around town by people who are trying to look tough.

I'd rather not say where I live.

garv123 · 27-03-2013 12:32AM

starlings wrote: »

I'm going to have to do a quick google here!

The types I was referring to are stocky and have big jaws, but the main point is that they are being yanked around town by people who are trying to look tough.

I'd rather not say where I live.

pitbull?

wolfpawnat · 27-03-2013 12:39AM

starlings wrote: »

I'm going to have to do a quick google here!

The types I was referring to are stocky and have big jaws, but the main point is that they are being yanked around town by people who are trying to look tough.

I'd rather not say where I live.

There are a few mastiffs
the napoleon
https://encrypted-tbn3.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcQiF4En1kP5hOgeA7-jKCTU2f1byjgtL_uh-fQb4AB7q9vbb9DOLQ

the dogue des bordeaux
http://www.animalinelmondo.com/images/cane/dogue%20de%20bordeaux.jpg

the bull mastiff
https://encrypted-tbn1.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcTy0Ei0vYEQGIJHpv4vr5maz8zuNpg988VHcBfHUTLr6Bi5tFTL6Q

these are the three main types of mastiff you'll see around

Also Staff's and Pits are very similar in appearance, it is really in their height and smaller differences that tell them apart
the Pit Bull
http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_7dgpfhjQ36M/TJZTv9Tb7eI/AAAAAAAAAA4/UPzgxieeHZ0/s1600/CesarPSA3.jpg

and the staff
http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-Tgjq0eKmvJg/TVQFi3sVJGI/AAAAAAAAB5I/ZTmFZQHoiBI/s1600/Staffordshire+Bull+Terriers.jpg

the latter are more short and stock.

Fair enough about the living thing, but can I ask are you in a city, town or rural area?

starlings · 27-03-2013 12:39AM

garv123 wrote: »

pitbull?

I've been googling images and a few breeds mentioned on the thread are like the ones I have seen. But as I've said, I'm not a "dog person" and I don't want to offend any owners of particular breeds because I don't have a clue.

My point is that bad treatment of the particular dogs I have seen has made me wary of them. It's not entirely irrational to be wary if you've been snapped at, but it would be irrational to think that the whole breed is bad.

Wibbs · 27-03-2013 12:40AM

blacklilly wrote: »

Such a sad story, rip to the young girl, truely horrendous.
As someone who has owned dogs all my life (typically non aggressive breeds) and lucky enough never to have had a bad experience with them, I am still very cautious when children in particular are around them. I've a Springer the last 10 year's, she's never showed any aggression towards a human but I never ever take a chance with her while my nephew or any child is around her. Even the most trust worthy dogs can become jealous in a spilt second. I'm not saying this is what has happened in this case but dog owners need to be more responsible and acknowledge the danger that can occur. All too often dog owners become too realiant on their perceived temperament of their dogs.

This in a big way.

Now just IMHO, some breeds can be more potentially dangerous. Breeds with a high prey drive for example are more likely to see a child or someone they see as weaker as a potential target given the right, or wrong circumstances and upbringing/socialisation. Breeds with stronger resource guarding/aggression another possible issue. That said there is an awful lot of dodgy thinking around some of the "dangerous" breeds. Like has been said this can go in cycles where a breed or breeds are singled out as being "bad". "Pitbulls" and Staffies etc a good example. Labrador bites someone? Barely registers. Staffie does and it's all over the daily mail. People love to have villains and good guys. It makes it all so black and white and comforting. Look at the current dangerous/restricted dogs list. German shepherds are on it, yet go back a generation or so and they were commonly used as guide dogs for the blind. Pitties and Staffies generally don't have a high prey drive. Many of the "cute" and "safe" breeds do. They're generally less resource guarding too, but let's not get that in the way of a headline.

Personally? I'd generally trust a staffie around kids before I'd trust a "family friendly" retriever(and nothing wrong with them BTW). Either way it's much more about the owner IMH and like blacklilly said you can't make assumptions about any dog, pedigree or mutt. Give a dickhead(and they're usually male) a poodle and you'll have trouble. Give a responsible owner a rottie and you won't. People forget that dogs are an apex predator, just like us. That's why we were such a great fit all those thousands of years ago. Your pekingese deviates from a wolf in their genetics by a tiny amount(luckily in a good way). TBH I'm surprised how few cases like this tragic one occur.

And it is very tragic. Terrible terrible event.

RIP to that poor young woman.

steddyeddy · 27-03-2013 12:42AM

I think the problem with The Staffordshire Bull Terrier paradoxically lies in their suitability as pet. If trained for aggression they will go out of their way to please and as a result could potentially make more aggressive dogs in the wrong hands.

They were originally bred for pit fighting so I would find it hard to believe they still haven't got a stronger tendency towards increased aggression in the wrong hands.

I think another problem that's overlooked is a person's nervousness around a dog. I'm sure there have been instances where a dog picked up on that and mistook it for aggression and maybe acted out on it.

The final point I wanted to make is that I think some owners might not be purposely encouraging violence in their dog but some are extremely naive about their dogs eg leaving a dog with kids that the dog doesn't know or not properly socializing their dogs.

Icyseanfitz · 27-03-2013 12:43AM

you can make any dog aggressive, beat and abuse them enough and a nice family retriever can become a killer.

look at this for instance, a lovely lab who any non dog person would think is a 100 times safer than a pit, but it isnt

wolfpawnat · 27-03-2013 12:44AM

starlings wrote: »

I've been googling images and a few breeds mentioned on the thread are like the ones I have seen. But as I've said, I'm not a "dog person" and I don't want to offend any owners of particular breeds because I don't have a clue.

My point is that bad treatment of the particular dogs I have seen has made me wary of them. It's not entirely irrational to be wary if you've been snapped at, but it would be irrational to think that the whole breed is bad.

There is no perfect breed, they all have their short comings, and sadly for those on the RB list, it is usually the moron holding the lead that is their greatest one.

I am always wary of all dogs even though I would know a bit about most breeds and am a dog lover. Each animal, like each human is different and with a small child I never like them getting too close. All it takes is my son stepping on their paw and they may snap, it is a defence mechanism but one I rather my son not experience it.

Smaller and herder breeds worry me as more of them tend to be pampered and as a result can have a low tolerance of sticky rough children, or in the case of herders, their brains are wired to herd and nip heels, they cannot help it, we have engineered them for that purpose, but every dog has the potential to be a sweetheart, but also they have the potential to be the anti-Christ with paws!!!

Logical_Bear · 27-03-2013 12:45AM

garv123 wrote: »

pitbull?

who knows?

Ive seen plenty of scumbags walking around with staffies/pitbulls/ban dogs in town but tbh never seen them snarling(the dogs I mean :pac: ).

Again Im not saying dogs dont savage/kill but a very high % of the time its to how they are raised/treated.

With a lot of pure breed dogs the aggression has been bred out of them.And all dogs come from working back grounds.Think huskies are cute?check out youtube for a working pack of them pulling sleighs in alaska.No way are they a family pet when bred/trained to be that way.

Lapin · 27-03-2013 12:46AM

Logical_Bear wrote: »

its not cheap sh1t.You post clueless,knee jerk bolloxology that might get POTD on the daily mail forums and nowhere else.

What Daily Mail Forums? I don't read that paper and if I do post on a topic linked to it, 9 times out of 10 I'm critical of the manner in which they report a story.

Logical_Bear wrote: »

What,if anything,do you know about staffordshire bull terriers?

Enough to know that they are inherently dangerous animals that have no business being kept as family pets.

As I said, safer animals are kept locked up in cages in the zoo while dogs like these are killing people.

I love dogs but I know where to draw the line between what breed of dog to regard as safe to have around a house and those that aren't.

Logical_Bear wrote: »

My parents have had them as pets/bred them for over 40 years.There's been 3 generations of kids in the house and guess what?No maulings.none.nada.zip(running out of words here..).......

So what.

The fact that your dogs have never killed anyone in the past doesn't mean they don't have the potential to do so at some stage in the future.

I'm sure the dogs involved in today's killing never mauled a poor girl to death in the past either.

But thats poor comfort to the family of Jade Anderson tonight.

shinkansen · 27-03-2013 12:47AM

DrumSteve wrote: »

Slight overreaction there chief.

A dog is generally only as bad as its owner (any type of dog).

why are bull terriers and the like responsible for almost all the recent dog deaths in the uk recently then?

Icyseanfitz · 27-03-2013 12:49AM

Lapin wrote: »

What Daily Mail Forums? I don't read that paper and if I do post on a topic linked to it, 9 times out of 10 I'm critical of the manner in which they report a story.

Enough to know that they are inherently dangerous animals that have no business being kept as family pets.

As I said, safer animals are kept locked up in cages in the zoo while dogs like these are killing people.

I love dogs but I know where to draw the line between what breed of dog to regard as safe to have around a house and those that aren't.

So what.

The fact that your dogs have never killed anyone in the past doesn't mean they don't have the potential to do so at some stage in the future.

I'm sure the dogs involved in today's killing never mauled a poor girl to death in the past either.

But thats poor comfort to the family of Jade Anderson tonight.

i cant name a dog that isnt potentially dangerous, its the idiots that abuse the animals that cause the problems

jonon9 · 27-03-2013 12:50AM

Lapin wrote: »

That poor girl joins a long list of many others who have met with a similar fate.

Early indications were two of the dogs put down were bull mastiffs and two may be Staffordshire bull terriers, officers said.

These breeds of dogs have absolutely use whatsoever apart from stroking the egos of their muppet owners.

I'm sick of hearing stories like this where innocent people are attacked and killed.

They should all be put down alongside a good proportion of their owners who treat them like toys.

No need for dogs like this at all to be kept as pets.

There are tamer animals kept in cages in the zoo.

Your one stupid bastard do you know that, any dog can be made attack hell even a child can be made do some ****ed up things with the wrong upbringing so please keep your uneducated ideas to yourself

Icyseanfitz · 27-03-2013 12:51AM

shinkansen wrote: »

why are bull terriers and the like responsible for almost all the recent dog deaths in the uk recently then?

because for some reason idiots buy that particular breed to look tough, and then treat the animals like crap to bring out their aggressive tendencies so that people will think their tough.

also is there some proof that most dog related deaths in the uk where caused by these animals?

shinkansen · 27-03-2013 12:53AM

well clearly the children involved did not kill themselves., from the top of my head there is at least 3 such dogs involved in child deaths over the last.......hmm 4-5-6 years.

and only them breeds.

i like dogs, i love them but for them breeds i am not sure they are at all sociable or suitable as 'pets'.

starlings · 27-03-2013 12:54AM

Logical_Bear wrote: »

who knows?

Ive seen plenty of scumbags walking around with staffies/pitbulls/ban dogs in town but tbh never seen them snarling(the dogs I mean :pac: ).

Again Im not saying dogs dont savage/kill but a very high % of the time its to how they are raised/treated.

With a lot of pure breed dogs the aggression has been bred out of them.And all dogs come from working back grounds.Think huskies are cute?check out youtube for a working pack of them pulling sleighs in alaska.No way are they a family pet when bred/trained to be that way.

I put my foot in it with the 'snarling'. Apologies to you and thanks to wolfpawnat for the links to refer to different breeds.

Twice in maybe ten years I've passed a dog on the street and it lurched at me, snarling. Both times the dogs got yanked back on their leashes but it was clear the owner had no control. This is totally anecdotal and I understand that it's the owner who is at fault. If anything, this makes me more alert to expressions and signals in dogs and that's not a bad thing.

But it does make me see how people could -wrongly- conclude after a bad experience that a particular type of dog is 'bad' or 'more dangerous'.

wolfpawnat · 27-03-2013 12:56AM

Lapin wrote: »

Enough to know that they are inherently dangerous animals that have no business being kept as family pets.

As I said, safer animals are kept locked up in cages in the zoo while dogs like these are killing people.

What is your professional basis for this may I ask?

My partner is a 4th year vet student and has done much of his clinical practice, and they are taught by the leading experts both in this country and from Britain regarding every species of pet, including dog behaviorists, rescue center owners/groups and of course veterinary surgeons and one of the breeds most recommended for a young family according to the professionals is the Staffordshire Bull Terrier. They have high pain thresholds and tolerance when trained properly, so if your two year old throws it's rattle and it accidentally hits your staff, it wouldn't whimper and yelp like a Yorkie. It will barely register it. They are a loving family pet and are always yearning to please their master however they can, and that is the reason that these idiots think them a great fighting dog, because the animal will do what it can to please you, just most of us prefer them to sit than to kill. But sure, you clearly know better than the most qualified people in Britain and Ireland:rolleyes:

'Dog attack' girl found dead in Atherton house

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