Proud to be from where you come from

enricoh · 20-03-2013 03:13PM

too right i am, one of the best days of my life being at croker when we won sam! proud watching irish fans in the stadium b4 euro 2012.
great country run by gimps. only in ireland would it be uncool to be proud where yer from

Hoop66 · 20-03-2013 03:13PM

Lars1916 wrote: »

I'm proud of being German. Why not, there are other things than the Third Reich and Angela Merkel

Like lederhosen and sheisse-videos

conorhal · 20-03-2013 03:15PM

Strawberry Milkshake wrote: »

I was a very proud Londoner during the Olympics last year.

Not so proud during the London riots.

That's because one was a triumph of culture and communal spirit celebrating a shared pride in it's expression, the other was pretty much a failure of all that and a warning to those that think 'society doesn't matter'.

hooradiation · 20-03-2013 03:18PM

conorhal wrote: »

I'd say the same about nation's.

There is an upper limit to the number of people you can have any real relationship with, it's about 150.
Ideas of nations falling under the same umbrella as other, smaller groups is wishful thinking.

Wompa1 · 20-03-2013 03:31PM

Confab wrote: »

Another proud to be Irish thread. Haven't had one of those in a while. FWIW, patriotism is illogical. Nobody chose to be born in their country.

LaminatorSGL wrote: »

Why be proud of something that is out of your control? Being born somewhere, or having parents of the same nationality is happenstance.

Defeating the giant monkey man and saving the 9th dimension? Now that's pride inducing.

Three Seasons wrote: »

It's not really. Pride is about feeling good for some sort of accomplishment. Being born somewhere isn't an accomplishment. It's the luck of the draw. You can't really say you are proud you won a raffle.

What about Gay Pride?

Shenshen · 20-03-2013 03:56PM

I never got why I should be proud of where I come from - how is that an achievement?

Yes, the place I grew up (Germany) has had significant influence on how I see the world these days, but was that my choice? No. It was an accident of birth.

I don't hate the place, don't get me wrong, but I don't understand why I should be proud of it.
I prefer being proud of things I actually influenced or achieved myself.

Shenshen · 20-03-2013 03:59PM

Wompa1 wrote: »

What about Gay Pride?

I think there's usually a lot of personal and social struggle involved for most of the individuals affected.
So in a way, being openly gay is something people can be proud of.

Nodin · 20-03-2013 04:01PM

Wompa1 wrote: »

What about Gay Pride?

Is that near Cork?

Wompa1 · 20-03-2013 04:02PM

Shenshen wrote: »

I think there's usually a lot of personal and social struggle involved for most of the individuals affected.
So in a way, being openly gay is something people can be proud of.

Historically there's been a personal and social struggle involved with being Irish too...

Leftist · 20-03-2013 04:02PM

enricoh wrote: »

too right i am, one of the best days of my life being at croker when we won sam! proud watching irish fans in the stadium b4 euro 2012.
great country run by gimps. only in ireland would it be uncool to be proud where yer from

are you ever proud of someone who doesn't come from your defined group?

Shenshen · 20-03-2013 04:05PM

Wompa1 wrote: »

Historically there's been a personal and social struggle involved with being Irish too...

Quite. But how many of those posting on here have found it to be a personal and social struggle in their lives?

I would say that once homosexuality is treated as perfectly normal the world over, gay pride will be just as redundant as national pride.

Shenshen · 20-03-2013 04:07PM

enricoh wrote: »

too right i am, one of the best days of my life being at croker when we won sam! proud watching irish fans in the stadium b4 euro 2012.
great country run by gimps. only in ireland would it be uncool to be proud where yer from

Don't flatter yourself.
It's uncool in lots of places, there's nothing uniquely Irish about it at all.

Hoop66 · 20-03-2013 04:09PM

enricoh wrote: »

only in ireland would it be uncool to be proud where yer from

Brilliant.
So...only in [where you're from] would it be uncool to be proud of [where you're from]. So are you proud of [where you're from] for it being uncool to be proud of [where you're from]?

Wompa1 · 20-03-2013 04:13PM

Shenshen wrote: »

Quite. But how many of those posting on here have found it to be a personal and social struggle in their lives?

I would say that once homosexuality is treated as perfectly normal the world over, gay pride will be just as redundant as national pride.

You think Irish people are accepted the world over? Ever try doing business with the English? Sounds like Australians are getting sick of us. Seems like we're looked down on in the likes of Crete, Tenerife etc. The French just don't like anybody.

The Irish persevered through hell, we have a rich history and culture. Why not take pride in that? You can feel pride, shame or indifference.

If you tell somebody you are gay, you might think they'll jump to conclusions about your character. If you tell somebody you are Irish, you might think they'll jump to conclusions about your character...

Gongoozler · 20-03-2013 04:15PM

I would've been in the 'why be proud of something you had no hand in?' camp, only now i cant help but think how many people have children that they're proud of,where they've done nothing to contribute to it, or who are proud to be smart, when they had no influence over that? Pride is a weird thing.

It is also a sin, so damn you all to hell!

Shenshen · 20-03-2013 04:19PM

Wompa1 wrote: »

You think Irish people are accepted the world over? Ever try doing business with the English? Sounds like Australians are getting sick of us. Seems like we're looked down on in the likes of Crete, Tenerife etc. The French just don't like anybody.

The Irish persevered through hell, we have a rich history and culture. Why not take pride in that? You can feel pride, shame or indifference.

If you tell somebody you are gay, you might think they'll jump to conclusions about your character. If you tell somebody you are Irish, you might think they'll jump to conclusions about your character...

So... because some people in other countries are prejudiced against people from your country, you should be proud of what some other people who lived in the same country you now live in did decades and centuries ago?

No, sorry, I don't see the logic.

Pherekydes · 20-03-2013 04:32PM

Yitzhak Rabin wrote: »

"Nationalism is an infantile disease. It is the measles of mankind."

-Albert Einstein

But then again Albert obviously never attended an impassioned game of rugby, such as the time Ireland kicked the English around Croke Park.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YS4AfMflkOk

So pride is just about remembering when your side won?

Shenshen · 20-03-2013 04:35PM

Pherekydes wrote: »

So pride is just about remembering when your side won?

From what I gather, you also need to forget when your side lost. Or when it cheated.

Leftist · 20-03-2013 04:45PM

Gongoozler wrote: »

I would've been in the 'why be proud of something you had no hand in?' camp, only now i cant help but think how many people have children that they're proud of,where they've done nothing to contribute to it, or who are proud to be smart, when they had no influence over that? Pride is a weird thing.

It is also a sin, so damn you all to hell!

relevant point.

I would argue that your children are your family. Even your friends can be close enough to be family and I can see why you would be proud of them for their achievements.

But what about seamus from a town you've never been to, or even paddy from around the corner, someone you've never conversed with.

They sing at a football match and some people are 'proud' of that. Proud that their teams support has done it's job. So where does that extend to? Does it end at nationality?

Being proud of a group of strangers, whom you don't personally know, is weak minded imo. It's attaching yourself to someone else's achievemnt.

Proud to be irish/any nationality just for the sake of it is weak as ****.

Einhard · 20-03-2013 04:53PM

Confab wrote: »

Another proud to be Irish thread. Haven't had one of those in a while. FWIW, patriotism is illogical. Nobody chose to be born in their country.

From an evolutionary point of view, patriotism isn't at all illogical. The instinct behind it is what gave us herd mentality so to speak, and played a huge part in our survival and progress to where we are now. Patriotism could be said to be atavistic, in the same way as limb remanents in whales, but it stems from a powerful evolutionary urge, and thus can't be ignored or easily dismissed.I appreciate that it's daft to cheer when someone you've never met wins something in a competition you probably don't even care about, and simply because he or she happens to have been born within the same arbitrary, human-decreed border, but I still get a lump in my throat when the anthem is played before a big match, and I still cheer for the Irish team. The patriotic urge is simply too strong within us to so easily dismiss, and that's why I tend to think that those who do dismiss it, are often doing it because it's a somewhat fashionable trend. I mean- are there really people out there who feel no sense of patriotism or pride in their country. At all? I doubt there's many. And yet, from all the guff spouted in threads like this, you'd swear that patriotism, and that herd instinct, was something that could switched on and off at will.

Leftist · 20-03-2013 05:11PM

Einhard wrote: »

From an evolutionary point of view, patriotism isn't at all illogical. The instinct behind it is what gave us herd mentality so to speak, and played a huge part in our survival and progress to where we are now. Patriotism could be said to be atavistic, in the same way as limb remanents in whales, but it stems from a powerful evolutionary urge, and thus can't be ignored or easily dismissed.I appreciate that it's daft to cheer when someone you've never met wins something in a competition you probably don't even care about, and simply because he or she happens to have been born within the same arbitrary, human-decreed border, but I still get a lump in my throat when the anthem is played before a big match, and I still cheer for the Irish team. The patriotic urge is simply too strong within us to so easily dismiss, and that's why I tend to think that those who do dismiss it, are often doing it because it's a somewhat fashionable trend. I mean- are there really people out there who feel no sense of patriotism or pride in their country. At all? I doubt there's many. And yet, from all the guff spouted in threads like this, you'd swear that patriotism, and that herd instinct, was something that could switched on and off at will.

While humans are a social and pack animal by nature, which may explain why a lot of us tend to love a cause or a flag or an ism to get behind or hide within, I don't think it's 'fashionable' to consider we do not need to dive face first into the most basic characteristics, just because it's in our nature.

Some might argue it's in our nature to hunt and kill. But as a civilised people we are capable of understanding that the benefit of others, specifically the well being of animals or humans, is more important than some basic force of nature from within.

The herd instinct is one thing we can't get rid of, but our brains and education can tell us that defining the herd by a man made institution or a flag or a religion is pretty much fabricated nonsense.

Are we supposed to welcome a stranger as a member of our herd over someone we know well because the former is the same nationality and the latter is a foreigner?

Snickers Man · 20-03-2013 05:23PM

Read the sig.

:cool:

Einhard · 20-03-2013 07:37PM

Leftist wrote: »

While humans are a social and pack animal by nature, which may explain why a lot of us tend to love a cause or a flag or an ism to get behind or hide within, I don't think it's 'fashionable' to consider we do not need to dive face first into the most basic characteristics, just because it's in our nature.

Some might argue it's in our nature to hunt and kill. But as a civilised people we are capable of understanding that the benefit of others, specifically the well being of animals or humans, is more important than some basic force of nature from within.

The herd instinct is one thing we can't get rid of, but our brains and education can tell us that defining the herd by a man made institution or a flag or a religion is pretty much fabricated nonsense.

Are we supposed to welcome a stranger as a member of our herd over someone we know well because the former is the same nationality and the latter is a foreigner?

I agree with you that we're not prisoners of evolution, and that we're capable of moving beyond the instincts that have been hardwired into us. Hence, we're generally not openly hostile to people who are different to us. However, I do think there is an element of modishness to some of the cries against patriotism. Most people can see that patriotism is daft. Most people still indulge in it. For some then, to say that they've entirely discarded such tendencies seems to me a little suspicious. Put it this way, I've never met someone who refused to cheer Ireland or their county or whatever, simply because they don't believe in patriotism. Yet, when these threads come up, there's always a significant number who claim just that. Seems strange to me.

Icyseanfitz · 21-03-2013 12:42PM

Leftist wrote: »

wow.

care to elaborate? as in "wow what an amazingly articulate point you have put across good sir for reason X or Y"
.
.
.
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or you could just leave it at wow

Leftist · 21-03-2013 01:19PM

Einhard wrote: »

I agree with you that we're not prisoners of evolution, and that we're capable of moving beyond the instincts that have been hardwired into us. Hence, we're generally not openly hostile to people who are different to us. However, I do think there is an element of modishness to some of the cries against patriotism. Most people can see that patriotism is daft. Most people still indulge in it. For some then, to say that they've entirely discarded such tendencies seems to me a little suspicious. Put it this way, I've never met someone who refused to cheer Ireland or their county or whatever, simply because they don't believe in patriotism. Yet, when these threads come up, there's always a significant number who claim just that. Seems strange to me.

Can't speak for everyone on that but personally speaking I would be cheering on Ireland in football.

But I don't like rugby so I am not even slightly bothered if they win or lose, same applies to other sports.

I do understand what you mean though, it's our group. We want them to win. That's the great thing about sports. I cheer on a team from a place I never lived.. it's all harmless fun.

But there's one thing waving a flag for a sports team, and a whole other thing for someone who waves a flag at any given chance.

The latter is the weakness that draws us to hide in a group.

Icyseanfitz wrote: »

care to elaborate? as in "wow what an amazingly articulate point you have put across good sir for reason X or Y"
.
.
.
.
or you could just leave it at wow

lets just leave it at wow.

Fromthetrees · 21-03-2013 01:25PM

It's the social cohesion part that makes pride of where you're from a positive thing.

The London riots are the best and most recent example of having a big enough section in your society who didn't give a sh1t about where they're from, or who didn't give a feck about who they share their part of the world with.

There's always going to be an evolutionary role for pride to play in our psyche, along the same reasons why charity to strangers can be explained. If a village a few miles away gets flooded, Diny will load of the tractor with as many lads and sand bags as he can find and head off to lend a helping hand, this is a good thing folks.

Shenshen · 21-03-2013 01:28PM

Einhard wrote: »

I agree with you that we're not prisoners of evolution, and that we're capable of moving beyond the instincts that have been hardwired into us. Hence, we're generally not openly hostile to people who are different to us. However, I do think there is an element of modishness to some of the cries against patriotism. Most people can see that patriotism is daft. Most people still indulge in it. For some then, to say that they've entirely discarded such tendencies seems to me a little suspicious. Put it this way, I've never met someone who refused to cheer Ireland or their county or whatever, simply because they don't believe in patriotism. Yet, when these threads come up, there's always a significant number who claim just that. Seems strange to me.

If cheering a team was all about patriotism, sports would be a sad place indeed I think.

Look at what happens when Ireland doesn't qualify in whichever sport you personally might be interested in - do you lose all interest and ignore the games being played between other nations?

Most people I know would go "Ah, well", and pick another team to support, based on pretty random personal preferences (was there on holiday, have a mate who is from there, kind of like the stereotypes of the country, any possible reason you could think of could make someone pick "their" team) and will happily cheer them on until they either leave the competition (in which case people pick their next favourite team) or win.

I don't think it's got anything much to do with patriotism at all, really. It's more being into a particular kind of sport and picking which side you'd want to win. An emotional bet, you could call it.
And people tend to pick the familiar over the non-familiar.

Icyseanfitz · 21-03-2013 01:32PM

Leftist wrote: »

Can't speak for everyone on that but personally speaking I would be cheering on Ireland in football.

But I don't like rugby so I am not even slightly bothered if they win or lose, same applies to other sports.

I do understand what you mean though, it's our group. We want them to win. That's the great thing about sports. I cheer on a team from a place I never lived.. it's all harmless fun.

But there's one thing waving a flag for a sports team, and a whole other thing for someone who waves a flag at any given chance.

The latter is the weakness that draws us to hide in a group.

lets just leave it at wow.

i love a good discussion i do :pac:

in all seriousness what is wrong with either of the points i put across? the evolution of us humans is an amazing thing, why should i not feel a bit of pride in being part of that, obviously its not something i myself accomplished or had any choice in but nevertheless its an amazing thing to be human.

As for loving ireland, what exactly is wrong with that? im glad i was born here, i feel no particular pride in being "irish" per say but i am proud to live in this beautiful country

Leftist · 21-03-2013 01:39PM

Icyseanfitz wrote: »

i love a good discussion i do :pac:

in all seriousness what is wrong with either of the points i put across? the evolution of us humans is an amazing thing, why should i not feel a bit of pride in being part of that, obviously its not something i myself accomplished or had any choice in but nevertheless its an amazing thing to be human.

As for loving ireland, what exactly is wrong with that? im glad i was born here, i feel no particular pride in being "irish" per say but i am proud to live in this beautiful country

come on. Please. Proud to be human?

Icyseanfitz · 21-03-2013 01:44PM

Leftist wrote: »

come on. Please. Proud to be human?

why shouldnt i be?

Proud to be from where you come from

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