Have you ever experienced hibernophobia?

tipptom · 05-03-2013 02:43PM

FT,you will find plenty on here who will tell its not happening to you, and to feel free to get the first boat home if you dont like it,get a thicker skin etc and you should look on it as great crack.I wonder do they talk to black people the same way,dont think so,they would get a going over for their little piece of banter.Just go through some of these guys previous posts and you will see what they are about.
I lived in London for 25 years and if I thought some one was trying to insult me because I was irish after I had started a job,they would get their answer back in spades one way or the other and it laid down a marker to anyone else that if they went beyond a line that it was not ok and that it would not be tolerated and never had a problem,to accept it lets the idiots think it is ok and the cycle continues.

FTA69 · 05-03-2013 02:44PM

I know, the point wasn't intended to be directed at you specifcially.

I never once said it was a daily occurrence. The amount of strawmanning going on in this thread is unreal.

One poster on here said I was making out that Irish people are in daily fear of their lives. Something I never did. That's strawmanning.

The question then becomes, how widespread is it?

Things like prejudice are fairly hard to quantify. It's not a major issue, but like all forms of bigotry it tends to rear it's head from time to time.

Fratton Fred · 05-03-2013 02:46PM

old hippy wrote: »

It sure is. Or when you're told to "grow a thicker skin", "go home if you don't like it", "it's only a joke" etc etc etc.

I always admired a dear old friend of mine who's no longer with us. His house was raided by the police in the 70s and he was questioned at length about whether he had any IRA ties (he didn't - hated them). Afterwards he never bore any ill will towards his host country or the met. I'm not so sure I would have been so calm and forgiving.

I remember three Irish guys that worked with my father back in the eighties.

All three were from Cavan and monaghan, hung out together etc and all lived in Acton.

One of them though got taken in for questioning three times, had has flat searched etc whilst the other two never had a problem. For some reason Declan was hassled to the point he moved backto Ireland. For some reason the Met police just decided they didn't want him around.

Was it Hibernophobia? He would probably think so, as no one that knew him ever thought he was involved with any republican activity, but why just him and not the other two?

FTA69 · 05-03-2013 02:48PM

tipptom wrote: »

to accept it lets the idiots think it is ok and the cycle continues.

True. That sort of nonsense (along with things like homophobia and sexism etc) should be challenged when it manifests itself.

To be honest there's nothing sadder than someone blatantly being abused and them chuckling along with it in the name of "banter" rather than acknowledging what's staring them in the face. It only propagates the "jolly eejit" stereotype.

Fratton Fred · 05-03-2013 02:59PM

FTA69 wrote: »

True. That sort of nonsense (along with things like homophobia and sexism etc) should be challenged when it manifests itself.

To be honest there's nothing sadder than someone blatantly being abused and them chuckling along with it in the name of "banter" rather than acknowledging what's staring them in the face. It only propagates the "jolly eejit" stereotype.

You need to decide when it is banter and when it isn't though otherwise you just look touchy.

I get wise cracks in the office, usually in the form of a stupid mockney accent, to which I usually reply aah bejaysus would ya go an ****e ya feckin gobdob and we all laugh.

I've had someone do it in a pub and my response of **** off you fat **** was, I felt, appropriate. (I hasten to add having four large Irish mates with me helped).

FTA69 · 05-03-2013 03:01PM

Fratton Fred wrote: »

I've had someone do it in a pub and my response of **** off you fat **** was, I felt, appropriate. (I hasten to add having four large Irish mates with me helped).

Of course it's appropriate. Someone taking liberties should be set right and that's the end of it.

Fratton Fred · 05-03-2013 03:13PM

FTA69 wrote: »

Fratton Fred wrote: »

Of course it's appropriate. Someone taking liberties should be set right and that's the end of it.

Let's do an experiment.

We'll go on the rip in Covent garden and I'll wear an Ireland shirt to see how much abuse I get.

On the condition we follow it up with a pub crawl in Temple Bar where you get to wear an England shirt!

anncoates · 05-03-2013 03:41PM

Fratton Fred wrote: »

On the condition we follow it up with a pub crawl in Temple Bar where you get to wear an England shirt!

You'll just get some convoluted bullshit about it being an understandable folk reaction based on the bloodshed and oppression of 800 years.

FTA69 · 05-03-2013 03:46PM

anncoates wrote: »

You'll just get some convoluted bullshit about it being an understandable folk reaction based on the bloodshed and oppression of 800 years.

Or not. But whatever you want to think yourself like.

Chinasea · 05-03-2013 07:03PM

FTA69 wrote: »

http://www.irishpost.co.uk/uncategorized/get-the-latest-irish-post-out-now

I realise the first link may not be the most impartial but there's a number of sources about far-right anti-Irish activity in Liverpool. The Irish Post alludes to it above.

Classy publication. Are you for real. You might have well linked back to Stormfront.

Miss Lockhart · 05-03-2013 07:14PM

Chinasea wrote: »

Nothing to be amused at. I don't see anything funny. Especially when the OP has, as I believe tried to incite a Brit bashing thread. And then the usual suspects conclude that anyone who might challenge this is 'anti Irish' - now, perhaps that is a tad pathetic as opposed to amusing if we were to go down that silly street.

OP opened up the thread with a fairly general hypothetical statement, with the disclaimer that it was not an anti English thread but....then followed up as soon as the thread had swung the way he wanted with his own personal (once off) negative experience soliciting others to follow suit.

My observation. My right. My belief.

What good could be achieved by that. Isn't it time that we moved on?

We'll all have to remember that next time you start generalised Irish bashing based on anecdotes.

I don't see anyone Brit bashing as you call it. People have shared various experiences with various nationalities.

And to be honest I don't really care if the OP has an ulterior motive - it's been an interesting and fairly balanced discussion of people's experiences. I don't see the problem.

Chinasea · 05-03-2013 07:28PM

Miss Lockhart wrote: »

I don't see anyone Brit bashing as you call it.

Ah right so Ted.

FTA69 · 05-03-2013 08:00PM

Chinasea wrote: »

Classy publication. Are you for real. You might have well linked back to Stormfront.

The Irish Post is a long standing and well respected paper, the Irish Times also covered the incident. Is that Stormfront as well? Don't be stupid.

Chinasea · 05-03-2013 08:03PM

FTA69 wrote: »

The Irish Post is a long standing and well respected paper, the Irish Times also covered the incident. Is that Stormfront as well? Don't be stupid.

I'd say at this stage, you'd argue with yourself.

woodoo · 05-03-2013 09:27PM

kunst nugget wrote: »

We'd better ban Father Ted so because that's obviously as bad Spike Milligan. I feel so oppressed just thinking about it.

If you don't see the difference then that is quite worrying.

tipptom · 05-03-2013 09:27PM

anncoates wrote: »

You'll just get some convoluted bullshit about it being an understandable folk reaction based on the bloodshed and oppression of 800 years.

Ok,you get to wear the Argentinian shirt in the Falkland island bars and tell them its all convoiuted bullsh*t.

kunst nugget · 05-03-2013 10:43PM

woodoo wrote: »

If you don't see the difference then that is quite worrying.

A man with an Irish heritage (who became an Irish citizen in 1962) takes the piss out of the Irish. Two Irish writers take the piss out of the Irish but with a knowing irony.

I can't seem to rustle the prerequisite ire to be offended by Spike Milligan's depiction of the Irish. Do I need to work a bit more on my sense of being a victim?

Solair · 05-03-2013 10:46PM

FTA69 wrote: »

Would you feel it acceptable to say "thank you, come again" in a faux-Hindi accent to an Indian shopkeeper you've never met? I doubt you would.

Would you go into a Chinese restaurant and say "Flied lice please" with a stupid grin in your face?

I'm not saying banter amongst friends is unacceptable, what I'm saying is that people you've never met in your life sitting behind you in a pub going "potato potato" while you're chatting to your girlfriend is unacceptable.

Talking to someone like they're a clown on the basis of their nationality is wrong and despite what you're trying to portray, it isn't always friendly banter.

Best one I ever saw was these English football hooligan types sitting outside a café/bar in Bordeaux laughing at French people walking past doing fairly normal french things like carrying a baguette, mocking people's accents, doing impressions of French being spoken to a bar man's face + calling him "oi! froggie"

They then started going on about how the French were incredibly rude when the guy asked him to get out of the bar.

Sadly, I think England does actually suffer from a very small, very annoying, thuggish element of society that tend to go around spoiling for a fight at all times. They're the same people who nearly destroyed English football for genuine fans for decades.

You get a bit of it in the Netherlands, Germany and Belgium too, and to a degree in France, but not quite as bad.

Ireland's yobbish/thuggish element seems to be more about random drunken brawling (the English do that too btw). I just find there's a kind of underlying angry at foreigners thing in England (and also in certain other EU countries) that can bubble up with that thuggishness and turn really nasty very quickly.

I've seen it in Ireland once or twice too. Like for example an American guy I know was pretty much verbally and physically assaulted at a bar (quite a nice one) in Cork because his bag or coat or something brushed against this guy who decided to take offence at his skin colour!
This was an Irish guy. He went off on a rant about 'the blacks' and then pushed him .. at which point he was pretty much jumped on by bouncers and dragged off.

A friend of mine from Spain was also told to "f*** off back to her own country" by a bunch of teens on the Cobh train one day too.

I think when it comes down to it, every society has a small % of thugs and they're always the ones who rely on xenophobic, homophobic, anti-ginger, or just damn nasty 'humour' that's intended to hurt.
Invariably they're a bit dim and usually have all the sex appeal bucket of manure, so probably have a major chip on their shoulder and the only way they can make themselves feel important is by attacking / offending / belittling someone else.

crockholm · 05-03-2013 11:21PM

A few months back,an Irishman on a cruise ship was awarded a sum of money because the court agreed that he had been subject to a form of anti-Irish bigotry(or banter).On the comments page were howls of PC gone mad,can't take a joke,thick skin,as a yorkshireman,etc etc.

One poster,presumably Irish,made the point that it's all fun and games until someone mentions the Royals. Fast forward to the Kate Middleton titties thing and the irish star, and said posters were seething with rage,cut off economic ties! demand the money we gave them back now!! third world country!!! With friends like these,eh?

Never having lived in England,and only being an(unfortunately) seldom visitor, my opinion isn't worth poo on this subject,no contest there, but friends of mine have experienced unfortunate situations there. One friend was having a beer in the pub,when a group near him began fantasizing about beating up an Irishman, barkeep told my friend to move on instead of the rabble.

It's there,still clinging on. And it is nowhere nearwhat it was in the previous century.
And the West Country rocks!!! Mick Teague's pub Gloucester rules!!!! whooooo!!!!!

FTA69 · 06-03-2013 11:07AM

Chinasea wrote: »

I'd say at this stage, you'd argue with yourself.

The Post is the largest Irish paper in Britain and is often used by the government and the GAA to carry ads and whatnot. How is that comparable to Stormfront?

No sense whatsoever.

Basically the Irish Times article by an Irish journalist living in England had the same reaction as many on this board; hysterical attempts to portray anyone who mentions there is such a thing as anti-Irish sentiment as a thin-skinned bigot spoiling for trouble. It's pathetic really.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock · 06-03-2013 11:51AM

FTA69 wrote: »

T

Basically the Irish Times article by an Irish journalist living in England had the same reaction as many on this board; hysterical attempts to portray anyone who mentions there is such a thing as anti-Irish sentiment as a thin-skinned bigot spoiling for trouble. It's pathetic really.

Can you repost the link to he Irish Times article?

Also, can you point out these "hysteical attempts"? I don't believe anyone said it didn't exist - bigotry exists in all cultures.

FTA69 · 06-03-2013 12:11PM

http://www.irishtimes.com/blogs/generationemigration/2012/07/17/return-of-anti-irish-racism-in-britain/

Also, can you point out these "hysteical attempts"? I don't believe anyone said it didn't exist - bigotry exists in all cultures.

I think comparing the James Larkin society to the "Love Ulster" parades and the Irish Post newspaper to Stormfront could be fairly called hysterical distortions to say the least. Similarly the notion that anyone who raises anti-Irish sentiment is obviously an unintegrated Kilburn eejit could be construed as a hysterical reaction.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock · 06-03-2013 12:28PM

FTA69 wrote: »

http://www.irishtimes.com/blogs/generationemigration/2012/07/17/return-of-anti-irish-racism-in-britain/

I think comparing the James Larkin society to the "Love Ulster" parades and the Irish Post newspaper to Stormfront could be fairly called hysterical distortions to say the least. Similarly the notion that anyone who raises anti-Irish sentiment is obviously an unintegrated Kilburn eejit could be construed as a hysterical reaction.

The amount of hysteia in that article there just as bad as the attitude of the so-called "North West Infidels". If one needs to be use extremeism in order to highlight a phobia of a group of people then you can not help but ge suspicious.

Also, the point needs to be made that it's a blog within the newspaper and not the newspaper itself.

I'd also like to bring your attention to the comments posted by readers at the end - most of whom either either tell of years of experience living hassle-free in England, or claim one-off isolated incidents.

Sorry, but that article, if inteded to stoke up divisions, is a massive fail.

End reuslt? There is no phobia or anti-Irish feeling. There is bigotry and ignorance, yes, as you have highlighed, but that happens everywhere. Even in Ireland.

tipptom · 06-03-2013 12:34PM

Ikky Poo2 wrote: »

The amount of hysteia in that article there just as bad as the attitude of the so-called "North West Infidels". If one needs to be use extremeism in order to highlight a phobia of a group of people then you can not help but ge suspicious.

Also, the point needs to be made that it's a blog within the newspaper and not the newspaper itself.

I'd also like to bring your attention to the comments posted by readers at the end - most of whom either either tell of years of experience living hassle-free in England, or claim one-off isolated incidents.

Sorry, but that article, if inteded to stoke up divisions, is a massive fail.

End reuslt? There is no phobia or anti-Irish feeling. There is bigotry and ignorance, yes, as you have highlighed, but that happens everywhere. Even in Ireland.

Thanks for settling that for us.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock · 06-03-2013 12:37PM

tipptom wrote: »

Thanks for settling that for us.

In the absense of any buttal, you are most welcome.

FTA69 · 06-03-2013 12:38PM

The amount of hysteia in that article there just as bad as the attitude of the so-called "North West Infidels". If one needs to be use extremeism in order to highlight a phobia of a group of people then you can not help but ge suspicious.

He points out the fact that anti-Irish sentiment isn't necessarily confined to the far-right, who of course hate everything. In doing this he backs up what he was saying with his own personal experience, there's nothing hysterical about it. In posting on this thread I, and others, have used their own personal experiences to demonstrate that anti-Irish sentiment hasn't entirely gone away. I've met black people in Britain who say they have never experienced racism, that doesn't necessarily equate with their being no anti-black racism in the UK does it?

I'd also like to bring your attention to the comments posted by readers at the end - most of whom either either tell of years of experience living hassle-free in England, or claim one-off isolated incidents.

Most but not all. As I said, everyone's experiences are different.

There is no anti-Irish feeling.

In the minds of some people, unfortunately, there is.

There is bigotry and ignorance

And when this bigotry is manifested toward the Irish can this then not be called "anti-Irish bigotry" no? You're contradicting yourself mate.

gallag · 06-03-2013 12:47PM

Has anyone said potato yet? Or tirty tree lol, always goes down well with an irish stranger. Especially irish bar men, they cant get enough.

philologos · 06-03-2013 12:50PM

FTA69: you seem to think its very widespread or common, but as far as I see in practice it isn't widespread or common. I can live my life without interference or hindrance. Accepting a joke every so often in good humour isn't a huge deal to me.

who the fug · 06-03-2013 12:50PM

gallag wrote: »

Has anyone said potato yet? Or tirty tree lol, always goes down well with an irish stranger. Especially irish bar men, they cant get enough.

Anyone know where this potato thing started, only noticed it with Keith Lemon and Jedward

FTA69 · 06-03-2013 12:56PM

gallag wrote: »

Has anyone said potato yet? Or tirty tree lol, always goes down well with an irish stranger. Especially irish bar men, they cant get enough.

I don't know what you're moaning about anyway. Over here in the "mainland" they don't usually differentiate between northern Paddy and southern Paddy.

Philologos,

FTA69: you seem to think its very widespread or common, but as far as I see in practice it isn't widespread or common. I can live my life without interference or hindrance. Accepting a joke every so often in good humour isn't a huge deal to me.

To repeat myself for the umpteenth time: no I don't think it's a daily occurrence, I don't think it's impacting on my quality of life and I don't think we're under constant attack. Why people feel the need to put words in my mouth is beyond me.

Secondly, I've also stated umpteenth times that I can tell the difference between a joke and something else. Someone calling you a "f*cking gyppo" and telling you to "go home to your own country" isn't a joke like. Believe it or not.

Have you ever experienced hibernophobia?

Comments