24/7 alliance...

crackcrack30 · 01-03-2013 2:52pm #1

I call 'dirty tricks' from gov with a divide and conquer tactic of excluding firemen from latest core pay cuts for frontline servicemen and women.....

Bloodwing · 01-03-2013 2:54pm

The rumour is the POA are happy with their deal so that's another group out of the 24/7 alliance.

dinnybyrne · 01-03-2013 6:36pm

Bloodwing wrote: »

The rumour is the POA are happy with their deal so that's another group out of the 24/7 alliance.

Not true, sadly the POA dont share the opinion of their members, the general feeling seems to be that of sticking with our 24/7 counterparts

Bloodwing · 01-03-2013 6:53pm

dinnybyrne wrote: »

Not true, sadly the POA dont share the opinion of their members, the general feeling seems to be that of sticking with our 24/7 counterparts

Well I certainly hope that's the case. As I said these are the rumours we're hearing so it's impossible to know where everyone stands until the ballots come in. Any idea when the POA are putting it to it's members?

dfbemt · 01-03-2013 7:07pm

crackcrack30 wrote: »

I call 'dirty tricks' from gov with a divide and conquer tactic of excluding firemen from latest core pay cuts for frontline servicemen and women.....

My father always told me to never look a gift horse in the mouth. If it sounds too good to be true then it is too good to be true.

Let's see the detail first before we make a judgement. The letter from Dept is too vague. It lacks detail. It needs clarification.

Beyond the 24/7 alliance, how will other members of SIPTU and IMPACT feel that their union has done a deal for other members of the same union (firemen) but not them.

In all fairness we haven't even done much. Has to be KCS, full implementation.

Divide and conquer at its best.

Never trust the Labour Party

dinnybyrne · 01-03-2013 7:50pm

I dont know the figures so correct me if im wrong. I heard all the unaffected civil servants(8-5 workers) make up 48% of the votes, so the govs strategy is to get a majority vote by giving the fire service and poa a good deal

SB2013 · 01-03-2013 8:00pm

The important thing to note is that the workers have not voted for this yet so there is no split. If they do vote it in it will drive quite a wedge between the organisations. Good for the governments negotiations, bad for the country.

crackcrack30 · 01-03-2013 8:34pm

I believe that this move will pour petrol on the flames of the already disgrunteled and unfairly targeted frontline PS servants who are being asked to stump up roughly 5% more than those working 9-5 .....

Shouldn't the 24/7 alliance step forward with their own counter move to ensure that the gov are aware that not only will we not be discriminated against within the PS but that they won't be allowed to imply that my/your time on a sunday night is worth less than the man or woman standing beside me be it on the side of the road, standing in an emergency room or dealing with a prisioner or drunk.......

The word alliance needs to be brought to the fore in the current circumstances....could it be possible that in the not too distant future alot of the fulltime fire positions could be retained if the current level of erosion continues......but thats probably a future battle that will need to be fought???

ambo112 · 02-03-2013 1:42am

I said it before and I'll say it again, where is the ambulance service in all if this? It seems we don't have a voice outside of SIPTU!! We aren't being vocal at all!

supermedic · 02-03-2013 12:44pm

Amboman, The reason that the ambulance service reps seems to be quiet is simple, everytime IARC makes any statement or does anything, the PNA take credit for it despite never having been involved in any way. IFESA have already taken credit for the firefighter deal that was brokered by SIPTU. IFESA have never even been in the room with a decision maker..
Currently, since yesterday, IARC members are having a massive internal fight with SIPTU officials over the deal that seemingly has been done for the firefighters. In the next few days, some serious clarification will be needed for the 1200 SIPTU EMT's, Paramedics and Advanced paramedics. 2 senior officials in SIPTU are telling different stories, only one can be telling the truth. If this is not forthcoming, then you will hear all about it ..

coolhandluke · 02-03-2013 1:39pm

I think it's clear for all to see the that the govt are desperate to keep siptu and ictu as the main players on the union side, so together they can screw workers into the ground. lying through their teeth and trying to undermine breakaway unions, you should be real proud of yourselves, real proud. Beware of snakes with forked tongues.......

John Mongo · 02-03-2013 2:06pm

Giving certain groups special deals is absolutely disgusting. How can they expect people to stomach the cuts, when they pull stunts like this?

crackcrack30 · 02-03-2013 8:33pm

supermedic wrote: »

. IFESA have already taken credit for the firefighter deal that was brokered by SIPTU. IFESA have never even been in the room with a decision maker..

Were there post deal meetings?
When and where did this happen?
Who was present?
Where does the 'fairness' mantra from the FG/Labour numpties come into this decision?

SIPTU Better get their ducks in a row pretty quickly.......;)

Pappa Charlie · 03-03-2013 3:07am

I wonder would jack o Conner accept sitting in a room of the main talks and see it as adquate for his members, in my opinion he's closer to the government than his workers, seems like a joint effort between the government and siptu to deflect attention from a sell out of workers!

apc · 03-03-2013 3:37am

supermedic wrote: »

Amboman, The reason that the ambulance service reps seems to be quiet is simple, everytime IARC makes any statement or does anything, the PNA take credit for it despite never having been involved in any way. IFESA have already taken credit for the firefighter deal that was brokered by SIPTU. IFESA have never even been in the room with a decision maker..
Currently, since yesterday, IARC members are having a massive internal fight with SIPTU officials over the deal that seemingly has been done for the firefighters. In the next few days, some serious clarification will be needed for the 1200 SIPTU EMT's, Paramedics and Advanced paramedics. 2 senior officials in SIPTU are telling different stories, only one can be telling the truth. If this is not forthcoming, then you will hear all about it ..

IFESA have not taken credit for this deal, in fact they have been vehement intheir opposition to the deal and fully support the 24/7 alliance

SIPTU engineered the deal to stem the flow of firefighters leaving SIPTU because of the negoiation of the CP2. This was purely created by SIPTU and the Government to control Firefighters and to break up 24/7 alliance.

Most firefighters who left SIPTU are against this deal not only because of the horrendous conditions of future changes referenced in it ( keeping Community Safe and the introduction of a 5 watch system with pay cuts of its own ) but because it is underhanded and an insult to the ethos of trade unionism.

How do the Nurses and Ambulance staff that SIPTU represent feel about the deal. Very annoyed I would guess.

I believe it is already causing tension at incidents involving all 3 services

crackcrack30 · 03-03-2013 10:27pm

9pm RTE news....The union sell us out and then the gov try to buy us back...:rolleyes:.

Isn't there an air of arogance in their tactics and an unbelievable detachment to the current feelings of disillusionment and anger in the frontline services ....

they play a very dangerous game.....

Pappa Charlie · 03-03-2013 10:37pm

crackcrack30 wrote: »

9pm RTE news....The union sell us out and then the gov try to buy us back...:rolleyes:.

Isn't there an air of arogance in their tactics and an unbelievable detachment to the current feelings of disillusionment and anger in the frontline services ....

they play a very dangerous game.....

The arrogance of this government is unbelieveable, I think they are genuinely fearful that the 24/7 will scupper the deal, jack o Conner and siptu are now like another member of cabinet, plotting against frontline workers who they don't represent, members of 24/7 should hold tight, it's a long time to July and lets see how they deal with the opposition from 24/7, if we are walked on now we will be forevermore!!

supermedic · 04-03-2013 3:17am

APC, your wrong there, IFESA are trying to take the credit for the "deal" Mr. Kidd was interviewed on the one news on RTE on Friday and was happy to suggest that their stand had forced the government into this deal. When asked would IFESA accept the croke park 2 now that they had a deal, he did not say no.... very telling that he said that we'll have to wait and see.... that's a yes then.
You are right about the 1200 or so ambulance staff represented by SIPTU, they are raging with the union over this issue and a "frank exchange of views" is due tomorrow about this whole matter.

apc · 04-03-2013 9:37am

supermedic wrote: »

APC, your wrong there, IFESA are trying to take the credit for the "deal" Mr. Kidd was interviewed on the one news on RTE on Friday and was happy to suggest that their stand had forced the government into this deal. When asked would IFESA accept the croke park 2 now that they had a deal, he did not say no.... very telling that he said that we'll have to wait and see.... that's a yes then.
You are right about the 1200 or so ambulance staff represented by SIPTU, they are raging with the union over this issue and a "frank exchange of views" is due tomorrow about this whole matter.

Supermedic What you misunderstood was that Mr Kidd said was, that the number of Firefighters leaving SIPTU to join IFESA caused SIPTU to get this deal after the talks on CP2 were finished, thats why it wasnt included in the printed proposal unlike the POAs deal which is part of the printed propsal. He also said that the members of IFESA would ultimately decide on wether this deal is acceptable to them but that his opinion was that it isnt and that IFESA fully support the 24/7 alliance

stretch00 · 04-03-2013 11:14am

Hi,

I am very anngry at SIPTU, so there better be a good explanation, and if appropriate an even better resolution. For me though the dilemna comes down to this, as it does to all memebers of smaller groups. If all the NAS staff were in one group, do you think anyone would listen to us ? 1500 odd staff out of 100,000+ ? Add in the rest of EMS in Ireland - be generous 7000 maybe of a group, would we be able to stick together ? Would our needs be too diverse ? Or would the mandarins just cut us dead and ride roughshod over us and do what they want?

The state is working hard to splinter us from each other and from our various representative bodies, little sweetener here, little deal there, just like the private industry incentivises things, so not criminal, slightly ethically dubious but thats all from their perspective. They are not doing this by accident, they have too many well paid advisors manipulating and helping them to do this.

For all the talk of the 24/7 allinace surviving, when it comes down to money in the pocket, food on the table and bills / mortgages paid, thats how people will vote, nothing more altruistic than that, and no point expecting people to do otherwise, they have to live. That is the death knell of the alliance, not that people want to sell each other out, but that reality affects each individual.

So what next ? I suspect that like me many people will realise that the only hope is in true numbers, the bigger unions have huge numbers in frontline, those numbers when they stick together scare the government, try facing down 45,000 members of the same union in one organisation, they are a force to be reckoned with.

Do not let us get splintered and cast aside, we must inhabit the larger unions and through use of their structures force them to focus on our needs, recent apparent evidence of speciality negotiation proves it can be done, and we must harness the power of solidarity with our colleagues across the union sectors to ensure this government listens to us.

Privatisation is kicking down the door of the HSE and all state sectors, it appeals in short term to government ministers, because they are short term people, they won't be around when the consequences become clear, when the costs are adjusted and they realise it provides poorer services at vastly inflated costs. When was the last time a private contractor which provided the quality, depth and variety of services that we provide did it anywhere nearly as well, and within the cost containment framework we work within ? How many different contractors will it take to provide what we do, and who will pick up the pieces for those deemed uneconomically viable to provide servies for ? There won't be anyone left to fix the mess. Or maybe Ireland can reinvent the wheel, only our wheel will work better than anyone elses wheel........

The public educated only by media and state seem to really believe we should all be just cut as much as possible or be privatised, lets see how well that goes for you when you need our services and they aren't there. You only have to look at the daily multiple protests by groups regarding service cuts and withdrawls, the constant complaints about access to services and systems. How will it be when each and every service and system you access if it has been decided to provide it at all, has a significant bill associated with it, way beyond what we give in extortionate taxes.

So lads & lassies, I understand the anger, I feel it myself, but let us not be rash and give the state what it wants, a splintered grouping of even smaller groups. Lets not give them a licence to destroy us and all the services we deliver and do so well. Think long and hard before you move anywhere.

Paulzx · 04-03-2013 12:07pm

supermedic wrote: »

APC, your wrong there, IFESA are trying to take the credit for the "deal" Mr. Kidd was interviewed on the one news on RTE on Friday and was happy to suggest that their stand had forced the government into this deal. When asked would IFESA accept the croke park 2 now that they had a deal, he did not say no.... very telling that he said that we'll have to wait and see.... that's a yes then.
You are right about the 1200 or so ambulance staff represented by SIPTU, they are raging with the union over this issue and a "frank exchange of views" is due tomorrow about this whole matter.

Ifesa have nothing to do with the deal despite Mr Kidds ridiculous claims. He claimed in the Indo the other day that the only reason the firefighters got a deal was because he threatened to close down Dublin airport for the "Gathering" around Paddys Day. Bullsh*t of the highest order!!!!!

The government announced 100 million in incentives yesterday to try and get the deal through. No specifics were given on this. It's time for all of the unions to get in on behalf of their members and extract some benifit for them.

Personally I believe more deals will be done if the unions are intelligent enough to start chasing them.

Ambulance staff represented by Siptu will hopefully and should get something too.

Paulzx · 04-03-2013 12:08pm

apc wrote: »

Supermedic What you misunderstood was that Mr Kidd said was, that the number of Firefighters leaving SIPTU to join IFESA caused SIPTU to get this deal after the talks on CP2 were finished, thats why it wasnt included in the printed proposal unlike the POAs deal which is part of the printed propsal. He also said that the members of IFESA would ultimately decide on wether this deal is acceptable to them but that his opinion was that it isnt and that IFESA fully support the 24/7 alliance

It must be true if Mr Kidd said it:rolleyes:

ambo112 · 04-03-2013 12:41pm

My two cents....

Call me paranoid but I am convinced SIPTU and the government are in bed together and are trying to shaft us, only SIPTU are trying to make the medicine sweet. SIPTU are the governments PR body that get us to agree.

I was a member of SIPTU and NASRA but I rang SIPTU this morning and cancelled my membership.

It only makes sense for the fire and rescue services along with the National Ambulance Service to have their own unions. Our roles are like nothing else in the public service. We are a small number of people. With our own unions we would be able to get the recognition, budgets and pay we need. Those unions would be able to publicly highlight shortcomings in our areas of work which SIPTU never do!! A massive amount of NAS station are in dangerous disrepair, we are not recognised as paramedics by our employer, we do not have adequate sick/injury cover, I could go on and on.

We NEED to have our own unions that understand our roles first hand and can fight for us. We cannot be considered in the same role as 9-5 admin staff.

IFESA and NASRA are our voice and all they need is our support. They are willing to do what we all are screaming for SIPTU to do.

LEAVE SIPTU and join NASRA or IFESA now!!!!! Bring on the storm!!

Pappa Charlie · 04-03-2013 12:54pm

If the government are going around offering sweeteners then clearly the best deal that could have been negotiated at the talks table was not got, it's the 24/7 action that has brought on the sweetners, jack o Conner has mellowed a bit today but he's shown his colours and his credibility is gone!

ambo112 · 04-03-2013 12:56pm

Pappa Charlie wrote: »

If the government are going around offering sweeteners then clearly the best deal that could have been negotiated at the talks table was not got, it's the 24/7 action that has brought on the sweetners, jack o Conner has mellowed a bit today but he's shown his colours and his credibility is gone!

Here here

stretch00 · 04-03-2013 1:44pm

ambo112 wrote: »

My two cents....

"With our own unions we would be able to get the recognition, budgets and pay we need."

Thats the bit that has me worried. I think the state would be only too delighted for us to form a nice small little group that they could then completely ignore. Don't kid yourself that we would have any capacity other than minimal to stand alone. I think it would more likely end in getting the recognition, budgets and pay that the state decide we deserve.

apc · 04-03-2013 2:20pm

You may not realise that the reason that SIPTU got a "Special " deal for fire fighters is because in the last couple of weeks SIPTU have lost a lot of Fulltime Firefighter members to IFESA

SIPTU now represent only 55% of Firefighters in Dublin
10% in Galway
50% in Waterford
20% in Limerick

AFAIK alot of Retained members have gone to IFESA aswell

That has come as a major blow to SIPTU.
Also the last time SIPTU talked about National Strikes their plan was for the firefighters to go on a rolling station by station walkout until all Firefighters were picketing and the rest of the public service in SIPTU were to remain at work and contribute 10 euro a week to a strike fund so that firefighters would not be down pay. That is why SIPTU needs the firefighters

ambo112 · 04-03-2013 2:23pm

stretch00 wrote: »

ambo112 wrote: »

My two cents....

"With our own unions we would be able to get the recognition, budgets and pay we need."

Thats the bit that has me worried. I think the state would be only too delighted for us to form a nice small little group that they could then completely ignore. Don't kid yourself that we would have any capacity other than minimal to stand alone. I think it would more likely end in getting the recognition, budgets and pay that the state decide we deserve.

Fair point but when the public think of public service they don't think of paramedics or fire and rescue, most agree that we should receive the pay we deserve and support what we do. I also think that as a small number our budgets wouldn't even be considered for cuts as it would be so minimal compared to any other area.

At the moment a cut is a cut right across the board despite the fire and ambulance being the most reformed sections since croke park 1. If we were stand alone they would see that, which they already have with the fire and rescue services by offering them the deal.

On the bigger picture they may even increase our very modest budgets to improve response times etc, especially when they are trying to restructure a+e departments around the country.

apc · 04-03-2013 2:26pm

This is the SPECIAL deal that SIPTU did.

"27th February, 2013

Mr. Tom Geraghty, Secretary Public Services Committee, ICTU.
RE: Local Government Fire Service
Dear Mr Geraghty,

I am writing to confirm that, subject to ratification of the Labour
Relations Commission proposals on the extension to the Croke Park
Agreement 2013 – 2016, the following has been agreed between the
parties:
In the context of the on-going reform process in the
full-time fire service, which will generate significant savings, the
totality of the pay structure in respect of full-time fire- fighters
will not be affected by the proposals in this Agreement. However, this
does not apply to the additional voluntary hours worked outside the
rostered commitment. In such circumstances, the overtime rates that
apply on a national basis in the sector will apply to full-time
fire-fighters and the commitment in the agreement in respect of one
unpaid overtime hour per week will also apply to full-time fire-fighters
in respect of voluntary hours only.

Yours sincerely,"

The Highlighted area ties members who accept this deal into the "Keeping Communities Safe " document which contains Manning level reductions and the introduction on a 5 watch system that will result in 6 hour reduction in there weekly wage.

Some Deal

ambo112 · 04-03-2013 2:47pm

Not a great deal at all. More reason to join IFESA and NASRA, let the people who know what we do speak for us!

Paulzx · 04-03-2013 3:03pm

apc wrote: »

5 watch system that will result in 6 hour reduction in there weekly wage.

l

Much as i dislike the KCS document that is a nonsense comment. I suggest you go and find out what a 5 watch system actually means.

KCS is not mentioned in the "deal". However it is the elephant in the room...........but it is the elephant in the room irrespective of the Croke Park 11.

The choice is negotiate the KCS whilst still having your wages............or negotiate it after they've been cut. To think that it's going to go away either way is a fallacy.

Paulzx · 04-03-2013 3:04pm

ambo112 wrote: »

Not a great deal at all. More reason to join IFESA and NASRA, let the people who know what we do speak for us!

Speak from where?.......The basketball arena?

apc · 04-03-2013 3:15pm

Paulzx wrote: »

Much as i dislike the KCS document that is a nonsense comment. I suggest you go and find out what a 5 watch system actually means.

KCS is not mentioned in the "deal". However it is the elephant in the room...........but it is the elephant in the room irrespective of the Croke Park 11.

The choice is negotiate the KCS whilst still having your wages............or negotiate it after they've been cut. To think that it's going to go away either way is a fallacy.

Obiviously you havent read KCS. Check page 63

BTW SIPTU reps sat on the Directorate while this document was created, so in effect SIPTU have signed us up to it.

"In full time fire services, ‘four watch’ systems (based on dividing the hours in the
week 168/ 4 = 42 hour weeks) have been in place for many years. In 24/7 services,
changing from the ‘four-watch’ to a ‘five group duty system’ (based on dividing the
168/ 5 = 33.3 hrs) has potential to provide assured levels of staffing without
generating requirements for special compensatory leave and overtime, and can
facilitate full working shifts and enhanced team training. There have been
significant developments in fire services infrastructure, vehicles and equipment and
HR policies since the four watch system was introduced. All full-time fire services
should review their current service provision arrangements to determine if the five
group duty systems would enhance service provision and/ or provide better
efficiency/ value for money in delivering the same levels of services.
Each fire service will review its current service provision in light of the
standards set out in this Chapter, and should plan an optimum configuration
of stations and staffing arrangements based on the parameters set out in the
previous sections."

I do know what the 5 watch system means, but it depends on which one you mean LOUTH with no leave and dangerous manning levels, Scrathclyde with extra shifts owed, Cambrigdeshire with a bastardised rota and shift owed system, Manchester found unworkable after 5 years but left a damaged brigade behind.

Pappa Charlie · 04-03-2013 3:25pm

Paulzx wrote: »

Speak from where?.......The basketball arena?

I guess now that you have your deal the basketball arena protest was a bad idea!! Why didn't you state that at the time?

Paulzx · 04-03-2013 3:29pm

apc wrote: »

Obiviously you havent read KCS. Check page 63

BTW SIPTU reps sat on the Directorate while this document was created, so in effect SIPTU have signed us up to it.

"In full time fire services, ‘four watch’ systems (based on dividing the hours in the
week 168/ 4 = 42 hour weeks) have been in place for many years. In 24/7 services,
changing from the ‘four-watch’ to a ‘five group duty system’ (based on dividing the
168/ 5 = 33.3 hrs) has potential to provide assured levels of staffing without
generating requirements for special compensatory leave and overtime, and can
facilitate full working shifts and enhanced team training. There have been
significant developments in fire services infrastructure, vehicles and equipment and
HR policies since the four watch system was introduced. All full-time fire services
should review their current service provision arrangements to determine if the five
group duty systems would enhance service provision and/ or provide better
efficiency/ value for money in delivering the same levels of services.
Each fire service will review its current service provision in light of the
standards set out in this Chapter, and should plan an optimum configuration
of stations and staffing arrangements based on the parameters set out in the
previous sections."

You see, reading it and understanding it are 2 different things. The 5 watch system (which i think is a horrible system by the way) does not reduce the employees paid obligation of 39 hours.

People would be rostered on the basis of a 33 hour week but paid for the normal 39. They would then owe the employer on the basis of banked hours and would be liable to be called in when on rest days. How these are arranged is a local arrangement. It would supposedly negate the need to bring people in on overtime but requires extra employees.

Some of the uk brigades that went with this system are now looking to revert back.

It also said that brigades should review their rostering systems. It didn't say to implement a 5 watch system regardless.

KCS is not a statutory document. It is a policy document. It does not supersede the Fire servcies act or the Safety, Health and welfare at work act.

It has some absolutley braindead stuff in it but the CFO and county managers will ultimately take legal responsability for any decisions they make on the basis of it. Most of them realise this

Paulzx · 04-03-2013 3:37pm

Pappa Charlie wrote: »

I guess now that you have your deal the basketball arena protest was a bad idea!! Why didn't you state that at the time?

I didn't say it was a bad idea............it was actually a pretty good show of anger...........but a whole strategy cannot be built around nothing but anger.

I don't have any deal. I have no idea whether it will pass and i have not decided yet whether to vote for it.

However, getting emotive and stampeding from one union to another is not going to change things.

Everybody has the right to associate with whichever union they wish. I would never nor am i entitled to critisize individuals for their choice. I can however express an opinion on what i feel are mistakes by unions.

ambo112 · 04-03-2013 3:41pm

I wouldn't see it as simple as one union to another. It is going from an all encompassing one to one which is tailored for our line of work.

crackcrack30 · 04-03-2013 3:51pm

Paulzx wrote: »

Ambulance staff represented by Siptu will hopefully and should get something too.

The time for hoping and wishing has long gone in a bygone era......too much time has been spent with SIPTU waiting for crumbs from the table... or for what we are due anyway:rolleyes:......the public voted in this shower to end cronyisim and protect us from bankers and bondholders......what have we got in return only the strongarm of the German government.....

As for the public, the only thing that will make them take any notice is when there is no garda, no landings in dublin airport, no ambulance or PTS to keep the wheels of the hospitals moving, no A&E department, no fire responce ....I could go on.....

The fact of the matter is that we either go hungry for a week/ month or year or go hungry for the rest of our working lives.....I personaly believe it wont take a week.

Paulzx · 04-03-2013 3:53pm

ambo112 wrote: »

I wouldn't see it as simple as one union to another. It is going from an all encompassing one to one which is tailored for our line of work.

I completely get your point on this.

However, as far as i'm concerned IFESA have achieved nothing constructive for their members since inception. Making noise and posting on Facebook doesn't count. Neither does constant rhetoric. They have been promising recognition "soon" for how many years now. Maybe they'll get it, maybe they won't

ambo112 · 04-03-2013 4:04pm

Paulzx wrote: »

I completely get your point on this.

However, as far as i'm concerned IFESA have achieved nothing constructive for their members since inception. Making noise and posting on Facebook doesn't count. Neither does constant rhetoric. They have been promising recognition "soon" for how many years now. Maybe they'll get it, maybe they won't

I absolutely agree, NASRA are the same but only because they don't have the backing. If they had 80% of staff backing they could do so much more for us all.

dfbemt · 04-03-2013 9:51pm

apc wrote: »

The Highlighted area ties members who accept this deal into the "Keeping Communities Safe " document which contains Manning level reductions and the introduction on a 5 watch system that will result in 6 hour reduction in there weekly wage.

Some Deal

Agree with you about KCS and the 5 watches but I don't think the 6 hour reduction is right.

Spoke to one of the crew in Louth and he tells me that there was no change at all in pay. Apart from so called full working shift which he says is in name but not in practice they ended up with more promotion opportunities and great time off. They are working 4 on 4 off and 18 full days off every 8 weeks. There is also overtime for them for the first time ever. They also get way more than we get for transfers.

I know we haven't had anything put to us yet but can it be that bad if thats the reform?

ambo112 · 04-03-2013 11:33pm

NASRA will be on prime time in a few minutes.

supermedic · 05-03-2013 12:30am

Yes , NASRA was on Primetime and MO'C made him look very silly indeed, a rep with no history of dealing with the press and a well briefed presenter, not a good recipe. We're not going to use our sat navs, but sure the ambulance control have one anyway..so it wont affect anything... and we have'nt been providing cover for public events for the last few years since THAT court case... and anything that we do will have no effect on patient care !!! Eh, well that will really frighten the NAS so !! did not come across well at all I'm afraid.

ambo112 · 05-03-2013 1:02am

No, wasnt great. But that's down to support aswell, if he was supported by all of us he could negotiate and fight for us.

We certainly can't turn around this early and go straight in with threats that could endanger patient care. Merely highlighting that we exist is a first!! Nice to see some kind of words about the ambulance service side of things as opposed to getting a mention on rte news at the end of a bulletin after everyone else as "ambulance drivers".

crackcrack30 · 05-03-2013 1:18am

Nice to see him on there,

I agree, he would need to strenghten his interview skills, no-one is going to give you a free ride in this saga......he needs to have 2 factual answers to every conciveable question practiced off.....and he needs to have his own headline points that have to be gotten out wheather they are relavant to the line of questioning or not.....but give him a while

.....I think all in all not bad... even if the same degree of threat of action and disruption was not forecoming, the GRA had their headline eyeopener of a mass resignation mooted & fair play to them....

It would be nice at a future date to be able to tell the interviewer that he speaks for and has the undevided interests of all ambulance personel at stake regardless of grade.....somewhat like the GRA...

apc · 05-03-2013 2:11am

dfbemt wrote: »

Agree with you about KCS and the 5 watches but I don't think the 6 hour reduction is right.

Spoke to one of the crew in Louth and he tells me that there was no change at all in pay. Apart from so called full working shift which he says is in name but not in practice they ended up with more promotion opportunities and great time off. They are working 4 on 4 off and 18 full days off every 8 weeks. There is also overtime for them for the first time ever. They also get way more than we get for transfers.

I know we haven't had anything put to us yet but can it be that bad if thats the reform?

Ok Maybe I am off on the pay, although I still think there is a reduction BUT its an improvement where they came from but not from where we come from - NO LEAVE - it is built into your 2 weeks/18 days off so you could possibily work the 8 weeks of 2/2/4 through the summer with no leave.
No days leave

They work 12 hour shifts, ask them about rest facilities
You owe between 7 and 14 shifts per year
Swaps are very few

The shift is 2/2/4 for 8 weeks off for 14 days on for 8 weeks off for 18 days on for 8 weeks etc

About promotions, there crewing per station is 1 SO, 1 SSO and 3 FF thats it, the SSO rides in the back as a FF

Checkout page 46 of this link
http://www.louthcoco.ie/en/Services/Fire_Rescue_Services/Operational_Fire_Service/Section_26.pdf

Celticfire · 05-03-2013 7:40pm

apc wrote: »

Supermedic What you misunderstood was that Mr Kidd said was, that the number of Firefighters leaving SIPTU to join IFESA caused SIPTU to get this deal after the talks on CP2 were finished, thats why it wasnt included in the printed proposal unlike the POAs deal which is part of the printed propsal. He also said that the members of IFESA would ultimately decide on wether this deal is acceptable to them but that his opinion was that it isnt and that IFESA fully support the 24/7 alliance

The master of spin. strange how when talks were finished IFESA slated SIPTU for loosing 10% of Firefighters pay, except they jumped the gun and had to change tact and accuse SIPTU of accepting KCS, and when this wasn't true he changed again and now won't leave 24/7 behind

ambo112 wrote: »

My two cents....

Call me paranoid but I am convinced SIPTU and the government are in bed together and are trying to shaft us, only SIPTU are trying to make the medicine sweet. SIPTU are the governments PR body that get us to agree.

I was a member of SIPTU and NASRA but I rang SIPTU this morning and cancelled my membership.

It only makes sense for the fire and rescue services along with the National Ambulance Service to have their own unions. Our roles are like nothing else in the public service. We are a small number of people. With our own unions we would be able to get the recognition, budgets and pay we need. Those unions would be able to publicly highlight shortcomings in our areas of work which SIPTU never do!! A massive amount of NAS station are in dangerous disrepair, we are not recognised as paramedics by our employer, we do not have adequate sick/injury cover, I could go on and on.

We NEED to have our own unions that understand our roles first hand and can fight for us. We cannot be considered in the same role as 9-5 admin staff.

IFESA and NASRA are our voice and all they need is our support. They are willing to do what we all are screaming for SIPTU to do.

LEAVE SIPTU and join NASRA or IFESA now!!!!! Bring on the storm!!

Another storm monger eh? Just like the IFESA chairman. He'd been dying to get a strike going for the last six years.

Pappa Charlie wrote: »

If the government are going around offering sweeteners then clearly the best deal that could have been negotiated at the talks table was not got, it's the 24/7 action that has brought on the sweetners, jack o Conner has mellowed a bit today but he's shown his colours and his credibility is gone!

Offering sweetners? How about the union actually doing what it was paid to do and represent it's members and fight for the deals it got?

"27th February, 2013

Mr. Tom Geraghty, Secretary Public Services Committee, ICTU.
RE: Local Government Fire Service
Dear Mr Geraghty,

I am writing to confirm that, subject to ratification of the Labour
Relations Commission proposals on the extension to the Croke Park
Agreement 2013 – 2016, the following has been agreed between the
parties:
In the context of the on-going reform process in the
full-time fire service, which will generate significant savings, the
totality of the pay structure in respect of full-time fire- fighters
will not be affected by the proposals in this Agreement. However, this
does not apply to the additional voluntary hours worked outside the
rostered commitment. In such circumstances, the overtime rates that
apply on a national basis in the sector will apply to full-time
fire-fighters and the commitment in the agreement in respect of one
unpaid overtime hour per week will also apply to full-time fire-fighters
in respect of voluntary hours only.

Yours sincerely,"

The Highlighted area ties members who accept this deal into the "Keeping Communities Safe " document which contains Manning level reductions and the introduction on a 5 watch system that will result in 6 hour reduction in there weekly wage.

Some Deal

BS, and you know it. KCS is a policy document not the firefighters bible. Each CFO will make his/her decisions on what they think appropriate. Also IFESA tried to spin that this was accepted.....more Lies .When KCS rears it's head it will be dealt with the same as any other IR issue.

Pappa Charlie wrote: »

I guess now that you have your deal the basketball arena protest was a bad idea!! Why didn't you state that at the time?

You seem to think all Firefighters are part of 24/7. Only the ones that have no recognition from management and have had no part in any negotiations, neither they nor their parent union the PNA are in congress.

ambo112 wrote: »

I wouldn't see it as simple as one union to another. It is going from an all encompassing one to one which is tailored for our line of work.

That used to be IFESA's mantra, Firefighters for Firefighters. But they want to reject a deal that secures most of Firefighters pay

apc wrote: »

Ok Maybe I am off on the pay, although I still think there is a reduction

Thinks, Perhaps, Maybe..... Who knows?..... you said it like it was gospel

apc · 05-03-2013 8:54pm

Celticfire wrote: »

BS, and you know it. KCS is a policy document not the firefighters bible. Each CFO will make his/her decisions on what they think appropriate. Also IFESA tried to spin that this was accepted.....more Lies .When KCS rears it's head it will be dealt with the same as any other IR issue.l

Thats always been the issue with SIPTU, they cant deal with anything on a National Level. Do you think Dublin or Cork will jump up and down when they try to bring the 5 watch system into Galway, they will like hell. They will be off trying to do their own deal and protect themselves while sacrificing the smaller Brigades.

They have done it in the past.

NICS was supposed to be a National Issue that failed to be fought as a national issue because Cork and Dublin had there own ICS so the National one didnt realy apply to them, so low and behold it still is not resolved

Also remember SIPTU took up the 2 vacant places on the Directorate and were present during the talks on KCS, I wonder is that why SIPTU so slow in balloting their members on KCS as was promised last November or are they so slow because its tied into CP2

On your last point that it will be dealt with under IR, it will be dealt with under CP and will be implemented when the 6 week trigger is pulled while going through the process, and once in ,it stays in.

Celticfire · 05-03-2013 9:20pm

apc wrote: »

Also remember SIPTU took up the 2 vacant places on the Directorate and were present during the talks on KCS, I wonder is that why SIPTU so slow in balloting their members on KCS as was promised last November or are they so slow because its tied into CP2

On your last point that it will be dealt with under IR, it will be dealt with under CP and will be implemented when the 6 week trigger is pulled while going through the process, and once in ,it stays in.

Indeed they did and met with resistance during the entire process. You seem to think that balloting nearly 4 month before a document is released is good practice, well I suppose it is if you want to get the scaremongering train off the platform nice and early.

apc · 05-03-2013 10:05pm

Celticfire wrote: »

Indeed they did and met with resistance during the entire process. You seem to think that balloting nearly 4 month before a document is released is good practice, well I suppose it is if you want to get the scaremongering train off the platform nice and early.

I am not saying it should be voted on 4 months early all I am saying that its slow in even deciding on the ballot.

But at least you admit that its more than a policy document and at least you havent taken the latest SIPTU line that the document is off the table for this deal.

KCS is here to stay unless SIPTU know more than they are saying.

It will be a massive test for SIPTUs National Fulltime Firefighters committee to pull together on. It will be very interesting to see unfold.
Hopefully it will be handled better than the NICS.
Best of luck with that.

dfbemt · 05-03-2013 10:06pm

apc wrote: »

Ok Maybe I am off on the pay, although I still think there is a reduction BUT its an improvement where they came from but not from where we come from

FACT - They suffered no loss of pay. For the fulltime who were already there they gained no pay. The gain in pay was from the retained who all got fulltime jobs. I'll repeat it so it is clear to you - Louth suffered NO LOSS OF PAY by moving to the 5 watch system

- NO LEAVE - it is built into your 2 weeks/18 days off so you could possibily work the 8 weeks of 2/2/4 through the summer with no leave.
No days leave

The shift is 2/2/4 for 8 weeks off for 14 days on for 8 weeks off for 18 days on for 8 weeks etc

But this is better than the system we have. If I get my annual in April I get no more leave until Winter leave starts at the end of Sept. That is 5 months without leave. Louth only have to go 8 weeks. At the end of every 8 weeks they end up with 18 days off. So as well as 4 days off out of every 8 days they also get 18 days off every 10 weeks. Work 8 weeks, then 2 weeks off. Superb leave arrangements

They work 12 hour shifts, ask them about rest facilities

I have. TV room in each station has a recliner for everybody plus there are fold up beds which get brought out at midnight although some officers allow them at 10.30. I visited Drogheda when they got their new station. Fantastic place. Have you seen their gym and mess?

You owe between 7 and 14 shifts per year

Yes, the only drawback if you can call it that. You get rostered for certain days - 2 days every 3 weeks - when you can be called in but you cannot be called in outside of this. If the shifts arnt used by the end of the year they get cancelled. I am told that there is no way will theese hours be used. Some fellas reckon they will get between 2 and 4 extra weeks holidays every year that they have already been paid for

Swaps are very few

Swaps get approved by the SO and nobody else. If you want them you get them. Nobody has been turned down yet

About promotions, there crewing per station is 1 SO, 1 SSO and 3 FF thats it, the SSO rides in the back as a FF

Don't see a problem here. An extra watch means extra DO's, SO's and Subbies.

And dont forget the Brucie Bonus. 5 watches doing the ambo instead of 4 means less ambo.

If that's the change they want us to do where do I sign

24/7 alliance...

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