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24/7 alliance...

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  • 01-03-2013 2:52pm
    #1
    Registered Users Posts: 1,160 ✭✭✭


    I call 'dirty tricks' from gov with a divide and conquer tactic of excluding firemen from latest core pay cuts for frontline servicemen and women.....


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Comments

  • Registered Users Posts: 881 ✭✭✭Bloodwing


    The rumour is the POA are happy with their deal so that's another group out of the 24/7 alliance.


  • Registered Users Posts: 778 ✭✭✭dinnybyrne


    Bloodwing wrote: »
    The rumour is the POA are happy with their deal so that's another group out of the 24/7 alliance.
    Not true, sadly the POA dont share the opinion of their members, the general feeling seems to be that of sticking with our 24/7 counterparts


  • Registered Users Posts: 881 ✭✭✭Bloodwing


    dinnybyrne wrote: »
    Not true, sadly the POA dont share the opinion of their members, the general feeling seems to be that of sticking with our 24/7 counterparts

    Well I certainly hope that's the case. As I said these are the rumours we're hearing so it's impossible to know where everyone stands until the ballots come in. Any idea when the POA are putting it to it's members?


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,398 ✭✭✭dfbemt


    I call 'dirty tricks' from gov with a divide and conquer tactic of excluding firemen from latest core pay cuts for frontline servicemen and women.....

    My father always told me to never look a gift horse in the mouth. If it sounds too good to be true then it is too good to be true.

    Let's see the detail first before we make a judgement. The letter from Dept is too vague. It lacks detail. It needs clarification.

    Beyond the 24/7 alliance, how will other members of SIPTU and IMPACT feel that their union has done a deal for other members of the same union (firemen) but not them.

    In all fairness we haven't even done much. Has to be KCS, full implementation.

    Divide and conquer at its best.

    Never trust the Labour Party


    LabourPosterChildBenefit.jpg


  • Registered Users Posts: 778 ✭✭✭dinnybyrne


    I dont know the figures so correct me if im wrong. I heard all the unaffected civil servants(8-5 workers) make up 48% of the votes, so the govs strategy is to get a majority vote by giving the fire service and poa a good deal


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 805 ✭✭✭SB2013


    The important thing to note is that the workers have not voted for this yet so there is no split. If they do vote it in it will drive quite a wedge between the organisations. Good for the governments negotiations, bad for the country.


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,160 ✭✭✭crackcrack30


    I believe that this move will pour petrol on the flames of the already disgrunteled and unfairly targeted frontline PS servants who are being asked to stump up roughly 5% more than those working 9-5 .....

    Shouldn't the 24/7 alliance step forward with their own counter move to ensure that the gov are aware that not only will we not be discriminated against within the PS but that they won't be allowed to imply that my/your time on a sunday night is worth less than the man or woman standing beside me be it on the side of the road, standing in an emergency room or dealing with a prisioner or drunk.......

    The word alliance needs to be brought to the fore in the current circumstances....could it be possible that in the not too distant future alot of the fulltime fire positions could be retained if the current level of erosion continues......but thats probably a future battle that will need to be fought???


  • Registered Users Posts: 169 ✭✭ambo112


    I said it before and I'll say it again, where is the ambulance service in all if this? It seems we don't have a voice outside of SIPTU!! We aren't being vocal at all!


  • Registered Users Posts: 72 ✭✭supermedic


    Amboman, The reason that the ambulance service reps seems to be quiet is simple, everytime IARC makes any statement or does anything, the PNA take credit for it despite never having been involved in any way. IFESA have already taken credit for the firefighter deal that was brokered by SIPTU. IFESA have never even been in the room with a decision maker..
    Currently, since yesterday, IARC members are having a massive internal fight with SIPTU officials over the deal that seemingly has been done for the firefighters. In the next few days, some serious clarification will be needed for the 1200 SIPTU EMT's, Paramedics and Advanced paramedics. 2 senior officials in SIPTU are telling different stories, only one can be telling the truth. If this is not forthcoming, then you will hear all about it ..


  • Registered Users Posts: 249 ✭✭coolhandluke


    I think it's clear for all to see the that the govt are desperate to keep siptu and ictu as the main players on the union side, so together they can screw workers into the ground. lying through their teeth and trying to undermine breakaway unions, you should be real proud of yourselves, real proud. Beware of snakes with forked tongues.......


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  • Registered Users Posts: 232 ✭✭John Mongo


    Giving certain groups special deals is absolutely disgusting. How can they expect people to stomach the cuts, when they pull stunts like this?


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,160 ✭✭✭crackcrack30


    supermedic wrote: »
    . IFESA have already taken credit for the firefighter deal that was brokered by SIPTU. IFESA have never even been in the room with a decision maker..

    Were there post deal meetings?
    When and where did this happen?
    Who was present?
    Where does the 'fairness' mantra from the FG/Labour numpties come into this decision?

    SIPTU Better get their ducks in a row pretty quickly.......;)


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 853 ✭✭✭Pappa Charlie


    I wonder would jack o Conner accept sitting in a room of the main talks and see it as adquate for his members, in my opinion he's closer to the government than his workers, seems like a joint effort between the government and siptu to deflect attention from a sell out of workers!


  • Registered Users Posts: 354 ✭✭apc


    supermedic wrote: »
    Amboman, The reason that the ambulance service reps seems to be quiet is simple, everytime IARC makes any statement or does anything, the PNA take credit for it despite never having been involved in any way. IFESA have already taken credit for the firefighter deal that was brokered by SIPTU. IFESA have never even been in the room with a decision maker..
    Currently, since yesterday, IARC members are having a massive internal fight with SIPTU officials over the deal that seemingly has been done for the firefighters. In the next few days, some serious clarification will be needed for the 1200 SIPTU EMT's, Paramedics and Advanced paramedics. 2 senior officials in SIPTU are telling different stories, only one can be telling the truth. If this is not forthcoming, then you will hear all about it ..

    IFESA have not taken credit for this deal, in fact they have been vehement intheir opposition to the deal and fully support the 24/7 alliance

    SIPTU engineered the deal to stem the flow of firefighters leaving SIPTU because of the negoiation of the CP2. This was purely created by SIPTU and the Government to control Firefighters and to break up 24/7 alliance.

    Most firefighters who left SIPTU are against this deal not only because of the horrendous conditions of future changes referenced in it ( keeping Community Safe and the introduction of a 5 watch system with pay cuts of its own ) but because it is underhanded and an insult to the ethos of trade unionism.

    How do the Nurses and Ambulance staff that SIPTU represent feel about the deal. Very annoyed I would guess.

    I believe it is already causing tension at incidents involving all 3 services


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,160 ✭✭✭crackcrack30


    9pm RTE news....The union sell us out and then the gov try to buy us back...:rolleyes:.

    Isn't there an air of arogance in their tactics and an unbelievable detachment to the current feelings of disillusionment and anger in the frontline services ....

    they play a very dangerous game.....


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 853 ✭✭✭Pappa Charlie


    9pm RTE news....The union sell us out and then the gov try to buy us back...:rolleyes:.

    Isn't there an air of arogance in their tactics and an unbelievable detachment to the current feelings of disillusionment and anger in the frontline services ....

    they play a very dangerous game.....

    The arrogance of this government is unbelieveable, I think they are genuinely fearful that the 24/7 will scupper the deal, jack o Conner and siptu are now like another member of cabinet, plotting against frontline workers who they don't represent, members of 24/7 should hold tight, it's a long time to July and lets see how they deal with the opposition from 24/7, if we are walked on now we will be forevermore!!


  • Registered Users Posts: 72 ✭✭supermedic


    APC, your wrong there, IFESA are trying to take the credit for the "deal" Mr. Kidd was interviewed on the one news on RTE on Friday and was happy to suggest that their stand had forced the government into this deal. When asked would IFESA accept the croke park 2 now that they had a deal, he did not say no.... very telling that he said that we'll have to wait and see.... that's a yes then.
    You are right about the 1200 or so ambulance staff represented by SIPTU, they are raging with the union over this issue and a "frank exchange of views" is due tomorrow about this whole matter.


  • Registered Users Posts: 354 ✭✭apc


    supermedic wrote: »
    APC, your wrong there, IFESA are trying to take the credit for the "deal" Mr. Kidd was interviewed on the one news on RTE on Friday and was happy to suggest that their stand had forced the government into this deal. When asked would IFESA accept the croke park 2 now that they had a deal, he did not say no.... very telling that he said that we'll have to wait and see.... that's a yes then.
    You are right about the 1200 or so ambulance staff represented by SIPTU, they are raging with the union over this issue and a "frank exchange of views" is due tomorrow about this whole matter.


    Supermedic What you misunderstood was that Mr Kidd said was, that the number of Firefighters leaving SIPTU to join IFESA caused SIPTU to get this deal after the talks on CP2 were finished, thats why it wasnt included in the printed proposal unlike the POAs deal which is part of the printed propsal. He also said that the members of IFESA would ultimately decide on wether this deal is acceptable to them but that his opinion was that it isnt and that IFESA fully support the 24/7 alliance


  • Registered Users Posts: 50 ✭✭stretch00


    Hi,

    I am very anngry at SIPTU, so there better be a good explanation, and if appropriate an even better resolution. For me though the dilemna comes down to this, as it does to all memebers of smaller groups. If all the NAS staff were in one group, do you think anyone would listen to us ? 1500 odd staff out of 100,000+ ? Add in the rest of EMS in Ireland - be generous 7000 maybe of a group, would we be able to stick together ? Would our needs be too diverse ? Or would the mandarins just cut us dead and ride roughshod over us and do what they want?

    The state is working hard to splinter us from each other and from our various representative bodies, little sweetener here, little deal there, just like the private industry incentivises things, so not criminal, slightly ethically dubious but thats all from their perspective. They are not doing this by accident, they have too many well paid advisors manipulating and helping them to do this.

    For all the talk of the 24/7 allinace surviving, when it comes down to money in the pocket, food on the table and bills / mortgages paid, thats how people will vote, nothing more altruistic than that, and no point expecting people to do otherwise, they have to live. That is the death knell of the alliance, not that people want to sell each other out, but that reality affects each individual.

    So what next ? I suspect that like me many people will realise that the only hope is in true numbers, the bigger unions have huge numbers in frontline, those numbers when they stick together scare the government, try facing down 45,000 members of the same union in one organisation, they are a force to be reckoned with.

    Do not let us get splintered and cast aside, we must inhabit the larger unions and through use of their structures force them to focus on our needs, recent apparent evidence of speciality negotiation proves it can be done, and we must harness the power of solidarity with our colleagues across the union sectors to ensure this government listens to us.

    Privatisation is kicking down the door of the HSE and all state sectors, it appeals in short term to government ministers, because they are short term people, they won't be around when the consequences become clear, when the costs are adjusted and they realise it provides poorer services at vastly inflated costs. When was the last time a private contractor which provided the quality, depth and variety of services that we provide did it anywhere nearly as well, and within the cost containment framework we work within ? How many different contractors will it take to provide what we do, and who will pick up the pieces for those deemed uneconomically viable to provide servies for ? There won't be anyone left to fix the mess. Or maybe Ireland can reinvent the wheel, only our wheel will work better than anyone elses wheel........

    The public educated only by media and state seem to really believe we should all be just cut as much as possible or be privatised, lets see how well that goes for you when you need our services and they aren't there. You only have to look at the daily multiple protests by groups regarding service cuts and withdrawls, the constant complaints about access to services and systems. How will it be when each and every service and system you access if it has been decided to provide it at all, has a significant bill associated with it, way beyond what we give in extortionate taxes.

    So lads & lassies, I understand the anger, I feel it myself, but let us not be rash and give the state what it wants, a splintered grouping of even smaller groups. Lets not give them a licence to destroy us and all the services we deliver and do so well. Think long and hard before you move anywhere.


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,970 ✭✭✭Paulzx


    supermedic wrote: »
    APC, your wrong there, IFESA are trying to take the credit for the "deal" Mr. Kidd was interviewed on the one news on RTE on Friday and was happy to suggest that their stand had forced the government into this deal. When asked would IFESA accept the croke park 2 now that they had a deal, he did not say no.... very telling that he said that we'll have to wait and see.... that's a yes then.
    You are right about the 1200 or so ambulance staff represented by SIPTU, they are raging with the union over this issue and a "frank exchange of views" is due tomorrow about this whole matter.

    Ifesa have nothing to do with the deal despite Mr Kidds ridiculous claims. He claimed in the Indo the other day that the only reason the firefighters got a deal was because he threatened to close down Dublin airport for the "Gathering" around Paddys Day. Bullsh*t of the highest order!!!!!

    The government announced 100 million in incentives yesterday to try and get the deal through. No specifics were given on this. It's time for all of the unions to get in on behalf of their members and extract some benifit for them.

    Personally I believe more deals will be done if the unions are intelligent enough to start chasing them.

    Ambulance staff represented by Siptu will hopefully and should get something too.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 1,970 ✭✭✭Paulzx


    apc wrote: »
    Supermedic What you misunderstood was that Mr Kidd said was, that the number of Firefighters leaving SIPTU to join IFESA caused SIPTU to get this deal after the talks on CP2 were finished, thats why it wasnt included in the printed proposal unlike the POAs deal which is part of the printed propsal. He also said that the members of IFESA would ultimately decide on wether this deal is acceptable to them but that his opinion was that it isnt and that IFESA fully support the 24/7 alliance


    It must be true if Mr Kidd said it:rolleyes:


  • Registered Users Posts: 169 ✭✭ambo112


    My two cents....

    Call me paranoid but I am convinced SIPTU and the government are in bed together and are trying to shaft us, only SIPTU are trying to make the medicine sweet. SIPTU are the governments PR body that get us to agree.

    I was a member of SIPTU and NASRA but I rang SIPTU this morning and cancelled my membership.

    It only makes sense for the fire and rescue services along with the National Ambulance Service to have their own unions. Our roles are like nothing else in the public service. We are a small number of people. With our own unions we would be able to get the recognition, budgets and pay we need. Those unions would be able to publicly highlight shortcomings in our areas of work which SIPTU never do!! A massive amount of NAS station are in dangerous disrepair, we are not recognised as paramedics by our employer, we do not have adequate sick/injury cover, I could go on and on.

    We NEED to have our own unions that understand our roles first hand and can fight for us. We cannot be considered in the same role as 9-5 admin staff.

    IFESA and NASRA are our voice and all they need is our support. They are willing to do what we all are screaming for SIPTU to do.

    LEAVE SIPTU and join NASRA or IFESA now!!!!! Bring on the storm!!


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 853 ✭✭✭Pappa Charlie


    If the government are going around offering sweeteners then clearly the best deal that could have been negotiated at the talks table was not got, it's the 24/7 action that has brought on the sweetners, jack o Conner has mellowed a bit today but he's shown his colours and his credibility is gone!


  • Registered Users Posts: 169 ✭✭ambo112


    If the government are going around offering sweeteners then clearly the best deal that could have been negotiated at the talks table was not got, it's the 24/7 action that has brought on the sweetners, jack o Conner has mellowed a bit today but he's shown his colours and his credibility is gone!

    Here here


  • Registered Users Posts: 50 ✭✭stretch00


    ambo112 wrote: »
    My two cents....

    "With our own unions we would be able to get the recognition, budgets and pay we need."

    Thats the bit that has me worried. I think the state would be only too delighted for us to form a nice small little group that they could then completely ignore. Don't kid yourself that we would have any capacity other than minimal to stand alone. I think it would more likely end in getting the recognition, budgets and pay that the state decide we deserve.


  • Registered Users Posts: 354 ✭✭apc


    You may not realise that the reason that SIPTU got a "Special " deal for fire fighters is because in the last couple of weeks SIPTU have lost a lot of Fulltime Firefighter members to IFESA

    SIPTU now represent only 55% of Firefighters in Dublin
    10% in Galway
    50% in Waterford
    20% in Limerick

    AFAIK alot of Retained members have gone to IFESA aswell

    That has come as a major blow to SIPTU.
    Also the last time SIPTU talked about National Strikes their plan was for the firefighters to go on a rolling station by station walkout until all Firefighters were picketing and the rest of the public service in SIPTU were to remain at work and contribute 10 euro a week to a strike fund so that firefighters would not be down pay. That is why SIPTU needs the firefighters


  • Registered Users Posts: 169 ✭✭ambo112


    stretch00 wrote: »
    ambo112 wrote: »
    My two cents....

    "With our own unions we would be able to get the recognition, budgets and pay we need."

    Thats the bit that has me worried. I think the state would be only too delighted for us to form a nice small little group that they could then completely ignore. Don't kid yourself that we would have any capacity other than minimal to stand alone. I think it would more likely end in getting the recognition, budgets and pay that the state decide we deserve.

    Fair point but when the public think of public service they don't think of paramedics or fire and rescue, most agree that we should receive the pay we deserve and support what we do. I also think that as a small number our budgets wouldn't even be considered for cuts as it would be so minimal compared to any other area.

    At the moment a cut is a cut right across the board despite the fire and ambulance being the most reformed sections since croke park 1. If we were stand alone they would see that, which they already have with the fire and rescue services by offering them the deal.

    On the bigger picture they may even increase our very modest budgets to improve response times etc, especially when they are trying to restructure a+e departments around the country.


  • Registered Users Posts: 354 ✭✭apc


    This is the SPECIAL deal that SIPTU did.

    "27th February, 2013

    Mr. Tom Geraghty, Secretary Public Services Committee, ICTU.
    RE: Local Government Fire Service
    Dear Mr Geraghty,

    I am writing to confirm that, subject to ratification of the Labour
    Relations Commission proposals on the extension to the Croke Park
    Agreement 2013 – 2016, the following has been agreed between the
    parties:
    In the context of the on-going reform process in the
    full-time fire service, which will generate significant savings, the
    totality of the pay structure in respect of full-time fire- fighters
    will not be affected by the proposals in this Agreement.
    However, this
    does not apply to the additional voluntary hours worked outside the
    rostered commitment. In such circumstances, the overtime rates that
    apply on a national basis in the sector will apply to full-time
    fire-fighters and the commitment in the agreement in respect of one
    unpaid overtime hour per week will also apply to full-time fire-fighters
    in respect of voluntary hours only.

    Yours sincerely,"

    The Highlighted area ties members who accept this deal into the "Keeping Communities Safe " document which contains Manning level reductions and the introduction on a 5 watch system that will result in 6 hour reduction in there weekly wage.

    Some Deal


  • Registered Users Posts: 169 ✭✭ambo112


    Not a great deal at all. More reason to join IFESA and NASRA, let the people who know what we do speak for us!


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  • Registered Users Posts: 1,970 ✭✭✭Paulzx


    apc wrote: »

    5 watch system that will result in 6 hour reduction in there weekly wage.

    l


    Much as i dislike the KCS document that is a nonsense comment. I suggest you go and find out what a 5 watch system actually means.


    KCS is not mentioned in the "deal". However it is the elephant in the room...........but it is the elephant in the room irrespective of the Croke Park 11.

    The choice is negotiate the KCS whilst still having your wages............or negotiate it after they've been cut. To think that it's going to go away either way is a fallacy.


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