24/7 alliance...

apc

I stand corrected bring on the KCS and the 5 watch system. Thank you ,I didnt know what I was missing mind you I doubt all your colleagues will see it your way, but then again DFB will do what suits DFB

Paulzx

apc wrote: »

, but then again DFB will do what suits DFB

.........as distinct from doing what suits....maybe.........Hong Kong Fire Brigade?

What a stupid statement.


What the hell is your hang up with DFB?......................actually, no I dont want to know

apc

Paulzx wrote: »

.........as distinct from doing what suits....maybe.........Hong Kong Fire Brigade?

What a stupid statement.


What the hell is your hang up with DFB?......................actually, no I dont want to know

I actually have no hangup with DFB, ( DFB are a lead member of the National Committee and are better resourced union wise with a convenor) but is the ability of SIPTU to act at a National Level in regard to the KCS and seeing as DFB has the largest number of Firefighters who are members of SIPTU it will be interesting to see how it pans out from SIPTUs point of view if one of the smaller brigades has an issue with KCS.

Is it one for all and all for one nationally

Celticfire

apc wrote: »

I am not saying it should be voted on 4 months early all I am saying that its slow in even deciding on the ballot.

A decision was made in November, and again when document was released. A ballot only has a limited lifespan and a ballot would be needed again before any industrial action would or could be taken. The implementation time span for KCS is three years..

But at least you admit that its more than a policy document and at least you havent taken the latest SIPTU line that the document is off the table for this deal.

Read again, and yes it is off the table for CP2, it will be a battle for another day

KCS is here to stay unless SIPTU know more than they are saying.

SIPTU have never said otherwise.

It will be a massive test for SIPTUs National Fulltime Firefighters committee to pull together on. It will be very interesting to see unfold.
Hopefully it will be handled better than the NICS.
Best of luck with that.

Thanks


So for the last time acceptance of KCS is not part of CP2

apc

Celticfire wrote: »

So for the last time acceptance of KCS is not part of CP2

Can that be produced in writing or is it just a sound bite. If you got that in writing then great, it puts alot of minds at ease.

Celticfire

apc wrote: »

Can that be produced in writing or is it just a sound bite. If you got that in writing then great, it puts alot of minds at ease.

Perhaps if you had been at Liberty Hall last night you could have gotten your reassurance.

apc

Celticfire wrote: »

Perhaps if you had been at Liberty Hall last night you could have gotten your reassurance.

Is it off the table or is it off the table for now and do you have that in writing.
As I wasnt in Dublin last night I couldnt go to liberty hall.

Or maybe its only off the table for Dublin?

Celticfire

apc wrote: »

Is it off the table or is it off the table for now and do you have that in writing.
As I wasnt in Dublin last night I couldnt go to liberty hall.

Or maybe its only off the table for Dublin?

It's not off the table as regards it will still have to be negotiated, It's not going away. I said and I'll say it again acceptance of KCS was not part of CP2

apc

Celticfire wrote: »

It's not off the table as regards it will still have to be negotiated, It's not going away. I said and I'll say it again acceptance of KCS was not part of CP2

Ok I see where you are at, so Acceptance of CP2 is not an acceptance of KCS,but there is nothing to stop them throwing KCS on the table after acceptance of CP2 as part of on-going reform of the Fire Service to which Mr. Howlin stated last year that the majority of savings in the Fire Service will be through rostering.

I would still like to see that in writing from the Dept of Public Expenditure and Reform cause I bet thats what they have in mind when they mention On going reform.

Now would the fact that previously the SIPTU National Firefighters Comm had decided not to take up the Directorate positions as they questioned there role and benefit of such positions, and then SIPTU temselves unknown to the Comm took up the vacant seats on the Directorate and that they were involved in the creation of this "Policy" have any bearing on the ongoing reform of the FireService.

Could one say SIPTU have already signed up to it. All I am worried about is that a deal has been done unknown to us that will come to bite us in the near future

Paulzx

apc wrote: »

Ok I see where you are at, so Acceptance of CP2 is not an acceptance of KCS,but there is nothing to stop them throwing KCS on the table after acceptance of CP2 as part of on-going reform of the Fire Service to which Mr. Howlin stated last year that the majority of savings in the Fire Service will be through rostering.

I would still like to see that in writing from the Dept of Public Expenditure and Reform cause I bet thats what they have in mind when they mention On going reform.

Now would the fact that previously the SIPTU National Firefighters Comm had decided not to take up the Directorate positions as they questioned there role and benefit of such positions, and then SIPTU temselves unknown to the Comm took up the vacant seats on the Directorate and that they were involved in the creation of this "Policy" have any bearing on the ongoing reform of the FireService.

Could one say SIPTU have already signed up to it. All I am worried about is that a deal has been done unknown to us that will come to bite us in the near future

There's reds under the beds as well.


Look, The KCS document is coming down the road i.e the negotiations for it will start at some stage. This is going to happen whether CP2 is passed or not. As has been proven by the CP2 talks, being in the room objecting provides a better outcome than not being there.


Sticking our fingers in our ears and shouting NAH NAH NAH aint going to make the KCS go away. CP2 deal or no CP2 deal it will have to addressed. Some groups seem to think that it's going to disappear with a no vote. It will in it's boll*x

apc

Paulzx wrote: »

There's reds under the beds as well.


Look, The KCS document is coming down the road i.e the negotiations for it will start at some stage. This is going to happen whether CP2 is passed or not. As has been proven by the CP2 talks, being in the room objecting provides a better outcome than not being there.


Sticking our fingers in our ears and shouting NAH NAH NAH aint going to make the KCS go away. CP2 deal or no CP2 deal it will have to addressed. Some groups seem to think that it's going to disappear with a no vote. It will in it's boll*x

I understand that but i wonder by taking the deal are we in a worse position where by the price of the deal is comliance with KCS rather than being outside and being able to stand against KCS in a more vigorous manner

Paulzx

apc wrote: »

I understand that but i wonder by taking the deal are we in a worse position where by the price of the deal is comliance with KCS rather than being outside and being able to stand against KCS in a more vigorous manner

Compliance with what?

The deal is the deal. Make your decision on the basis of what you are being offered re pay etc.

When the CP2 decision is made (whichever way it goes) we do our standing against KCS as vigorously as we can. There will be elements of it that are acceptable to us and some that are not. To push that agenda we need to be in the room......and more importantly have the right people in the room.


To throw KCS into the mix as part of the CP2 is a red herring and a distraction.

oscar2

dfbemt wrote: »

Agree with you about KCS and the 5 watches but I don't think the 6 hour reduction is right.

Spoke to one of the crew in Louth and he tells me that there was no change at all in pay. Apart from so called full working shift which he says is in name but not in practice they ended up with more promotion opportunities and great time off. They are working 4 on 4 off and 18 full days off every 8 weeks. There is also overtime for them for the first time ever. They also get way more than we get for transfers.

I know we haven't had anything put to us yet but can it be that bad if thats the reform?

Correct me if I'm wrong but in Louth they went from a day manning/retained system to a 24/7 system so it was a win situation for them with retained being appointed as wholetime and an overall increase in wholetime firefighter numbers.

Most if not all wholetime (and retained) brigades have seen numbers drop over the last 5 years. The slack is being made up with overtime and cuts in leave/training etc when as an essential service recruitment should have taken place.

Management has by it's policies inflated the overtime bill and now can make a case for it's reduction by the 5 watch system. At the core of this system is a reduction in firefighter numbers on each watch.

A 5 watch system will involve a reduction in pay as fewer nights/weekends will be worked. Factor in the dangers created by smaller crews and it is a recipe for disaster.

Down the line the anomaly of working a 33 hour week for 39 hours pay will be addressed with another pay cut. Just imagine what headline the Irish Independent would write!

Finally I'm at a loss as to what hope we as firefighters have in defending an already battered service against cuts when the unions/associations and their members are more concerned with attacking each other than with showing a united front against these disastrous cuts.

apc

Paulzx wrote: »

Compliance with what?

The deal is the deal. Make your decision on the basis of what you are being offered re pay etc.

When the CP2 decision is made (whichever way it goes) we do our standing against KCS as vigorously as we can. There will be elements of it that are acceptable to us and some that are not. To push that agenda we need to be in the room......and more importantly have the right people in the room.


To throw KCS into the mix as part of the CP2 is a red herring and a distraction.

In your opinion what is co-operation with on going reform of the fire service, what is the Reform they speak of?

Paulzx

apc wrote: »

In your opinion what is co-operation with on going reform of the fire service, what is the Reform they speak of?

You want me to describe line by line details of negotiations that haven't even started yet?


People seem to forget that by signing up to the original Croke Park deal we agreed to co operate with reforms etc. It's not exactly breaking news.

apc

Paulzx wrote: »

You want me to describe line by line details of negotiations that haven't even started yet?


People seem to forget that by signing up to the original Croke Park deal we agreed to co operate with reforms etc. It's not exactly breaking news.

Ya I know but it states very specifically "In the context of the on-going reform process in the
full-time fire service, which will generate significant savings"
I wonder when SIPTU hammered out this deal they did enquire as to what was meant by this line.
I mean if you were in negoiations and management said that they agreed with your demands provided you coperate with on going reform , you would ask what they meant and what the reforms were, you wouldnt just accept that line ,would you?

Paulzx

apc wrote: »

Ya I know but it states very specifically "In the context of the on-going reform process in the
full-time fire service, which will generate significant savings"
I wonder when SIPTU hammered out this deal they did enquire as to what was meant by this line.
I mean if you were in negoiations and management said that they agreed with your demands provided you coperate with on going reform , you would ask what they meant and what the reforms were, you wouldnt just accept that line ,would you?

"On going reform" is always happening. There hasn't been a year since i came into the job whereby there hasn't been changes in skills, manning, appliances, training, PDA's etc. Throughout the so called good years it was called productivity.

We need to be in a position to argue and shape these "reforms" for the good of the public and firefighters. The KCS document is not good for the public or for firefighters when looked at in its entirety. Making sure the effects of the bad stuff are minimised and the decent stuff is implemented is what matters.

If this is "on going reform" well so be it.

apc

Paulzx wrote: »

"On going reform" is always happening. There hasn't been a year since i came into the job whereby there hasn't been changes in skills, manning, appliances, training, PDA's etc. Throughout the so called good years it was called productivity.

We need to be in a position to argue and shape these "reforms" for the good of the public and firefighters. The KCS document is not good for the public or for firefighters when looked at in its entirety. Making sure the effects of the bad stuff are minimised and the decent stuff is implemented is what matters.

If this is "on going reform" well so be it.

A very vague answer, and not a very reassuring answer. Anyway I think the Government have played SIPTU a blinder on this one. SIPTU tried to sort out their problems by doing a deal that has taken the focus off the CP2 in General. CP2 is a bigger issue than the "Deal" for firefighters.

The Unions sat at the Governments bidding to finish/extend an agreement and agreed to cut pay across the Public Service as a whole, what was wrong with saying no we have a deal until 2014.
Also from our point of view it cut our overtime rate and cut parity with the Garda which was sacrosanct ( regardless of whether they were in or out of CP2)
and they now have the right under clause 2.29 and LRC20448 to get rid of Allowances which are no longer used for their original purpose and we know which allowance that is.

So instead of this bickering over Sunday pay CP2 should be a NO vote for the good of all especially Firefighters

Paulzx

apc wrote: »

A very vague answer,

T

What the hell is that supposed to mean? Do you think i have a direct line to Phil Hogans office so that i can get specifics to post up on Boards?

That is my opinion. Exactly the same as you have given youropinion. No more, no less.

There are too any people out there throwing out dangerous information as if it was fact. They are doing this to further their own agenda and don't care about the damage and worry it is causing.

Unless you have a crystal ball we have no idea where all this is going. We can try and predict it and maybe it will all end in tears. However, at the moment it's all still up in air

Celticfire

Paulzx wrote: »

What the hell is that supposed to mean? Do you think i have a direct line to Phil Hogans office so that i can get specifics to post up on Boards?

That is my opinion. Exactly the same as you have given youropinion. No more, no less.

There are too any people out there throwing out dangerous information as if it was fact. They are doing this to further their own agenda and don't care about the damage and worry it is causing.

Unless you have a crystal ball we have no idea where all this is going. We can try and predict it and maybe it will all end in tears. However, at the moment it's all still up in air

I can actually tell from APC's posts that he is towing the IFESA line and has no opinion until he's told what it is. He seems to have no actual idea what's going on except what he's been spoon fed. He actually aped IFESA's line of arguing. I like how they do that keep changing tact till eventually they might be right and can tell everyone how they knew all along. "A stopped clock is right twice a day " FFS

oscar2

Losing pay parity is a huge loss. Maybe not for the next few years but in the future it will hurt us big time.Don't be so quick to follow the party line.

Take a look across the water. Check the FBU page re pension changes.See what's happened in Greater Manchester,London,Stathclyde etc. They didn't bring in Brian Sweeney for the good of his health.

They will ape whatever UK policies save them the most money.

Unfortunately we don't have the resources/numbers that the UK has.The Fire Service operationally in Ireland has always been operated at a minimum in terms of numbers so any cuts will have a drastic effect.

Finally when I read a proposed agreement I go through it line by line.Every word in the proposal has an intent and a meaning.If unsure clarifications must be sought.

And yet again a debate descends into inter union wrangling:(

Celticfire

Absolutely Oscar: There's always a bigger picture... It's going to be an uphill battle for many years to come.

apc

Celticfire wrote: »

I can actually tell from APC's posts that he is towing the IFESA line and has no opinion until he's told what it is. He seems to have no actual idea what's going on except what he's been spoon fed. He actually aped IFESA's line of arguing. I like how they do that keep changing tact till eventually they might be right and can tell everyone how they knew all along. "A stopped clock is right twice a day " FFS

No you are wrong, I do have my own opinions and I do feel very strongly that as a trade Union member and activist for 30 years that the deal smacked of a knee jerk reaction and of cosying up to government. What annoyed me most as a member of SIPTU is that they were willing to do a deal for us, but were willing to ignore the Nurses and Ambulance workers who are also members of SIPTU.
Also I never met anyone from SIPTU who voted in favour of CP1 yet it was "voted" in unanimously and I fear the same for CP2.
I dont like CP2, Idont think CP" is a good deal and I honestly think it will haunt us into the Future and that our hands will be tied by it.

I also think the Unions and the Government need a good kick up the hole as well as both are taking us for fools

dfbemt

Latest KCS documents are out for upcoming meeting and they are crackers.

The implementation document lays it all out and I don't see where the time is for negotiations to take place. Full steam ahead until the end of 2015.

Youd think they would wait until the vote was over. Talking in work tonight after the documents were produced and some were adamant they would vote against CP2. KCS is just too much.....

oscar2

Where can Implementation documents be seen?

crackcrack30

Looks like SIPTU are asking its suscribing members to vote in favour of a pay cut.........hope u'r happy with that expencive advice lads.
I know where I would get some of that money to finiance any future cuts.........

apc

oscar2 wrote: »

Where can Implementation documents be seen?

They would be interesting to see. Are they the KCS documents themselves or are they other documents relating to the Departments plans for introduction of the KCS

audidiesel

ive been refraining from posting on this for a while. but the fairness of this deal cannot be questioned. it is not fair.

the governments excuse that those who stayed got a better deal is proven wrong by some members of siptu getting a deal and others not.

im waiting to see if this is accepted or not. if it is then it is the end of the 24/7 alliance in its present form for good.

guards and nurses will never trust firemen or prison officers again. when the government come back in 1-2 years as i think they will, these groups could be very lonely. if prison officers ever strike in the next decade or two, there will be thousands of guards queuing up to work in prisons. if ye f*ck us over now you better believe we will take the chance to return the favour in years to come.

im very hopeful that the deal doesnt go through. but if it does, then the members singled out for bribes are going to be forever on their own. once that solidarity is sold out, it will never be re-established.

oscar2

audidiesel wrote: »

guards and nurses will never trust firemen or prison officers again. when the government come back in 1-2 years as i think they will, these groups could be very lonely. if prison officers ever strike in the next decade or two, there will be thousands of guards queuing up to work in prisons. if ye f*ck us over now you better believe we will take the chance to return the favour in years to come.

im very hopeful that the deal doesnt go through. but if it does, then the members singled out for bribes are going to be forever on their own. once that solidarity is sold out, it will never be re-established.

We need to rise above this cynical attempt by the Government and other vested interests to divide us.

I quite honestly expected and still expect the Gardai to be offered a deal.
It's an amazing act of stupidity for an unpopular government to alienate the Police.

What do you think rank and file Gardai would do if they were offered concessions regarding pay?

Just remember it's not all black and white. I can remember a Prison Officer telling me how he would never trust Gardai again when they worked to break a Prison Strike in 1988 which was to secure negotiating rights. He was quite bitter as he recounted how Gardai taunted the strikers at the time.

Similarly during the Dublin Fire Brigade strike in 1987 the Gardai assisted the Army in providing Fire cover.

We need to rise about this cynical attempt by the Government and other vested interests to divide us. It's obvious that they and their ICTU friends are seriously concerned by the threat posed by this alliance.We need to remember this and stick together.

We need to remember that the FG/Labour coalition have continued the policy of FF in dividing Paye workers. Public vs Private,Frontline vs rest,Nurse/Gardai vs Firefighters/POA.

Remember that Firefighters will be split as not all Firefighters are SIPTU members. Similarly some nurses and Paramedics are members of SIPTU. Are you casting them adrift also?

For the record I am a Firefighter who appreciates how angry frontline nurses,Paramedics,Gardai and others are but don't be angry at the wrong target!

audidiesel

i appreciate how all cannot be tarnished with the one brush and that there are many shades of grey etc. honestly i think nurses and guards haven't been given the deals due to their larger sizes. nurses moreso than guards even.

i am very hopeful that the government does not drive a wedge between the organisations as that would hurt all of us long-term. having said that if they did succeed in this then it would take decades to restore faith and this alliance would die very very quickly.

again im very hopeful this cynical bullying government doesn't get its way. i think it would be a tragedy if they did. but if they did, the repercussions would be felt for years to come between all the services.

im afraid i was only a young fella in primary school during the mid/late 80's. so i have no memory of them if im honest about it. well over 90% of all guards working now were not working back in those days either. if we got a special deal would we take it? id like to think no, but its easy to say when i wasnt asked i suppose.

oscar2

1980's may seem long away but institutions and organisations such as ours have a memory passed on by dinosaurs like myself so I'm sure there are Prison Officers wondering "If we stay in can the Guards be trusted?".

Firefighters are getting a carrot now because the Department of Environment has a big stick called "Keeping Communities Safe" coming down the tracks starting this year.

Another thing to remember is that SIPTU Firefighters could all vote against CPA2 and you'd never know because their vote will be swamped by other SIPTU members.

You are correct in saying big savings can be made by hitting nurses and Gardai but the government are still idiots to hit Gardai.

They'll need you lot to beat my lot off the street.

Take care.

Pappa Charlie

I'm prepared for the nurses and gardai to go it alone if necessary, they are two extremely large and well respected groups and the government want to be seen to break them, 24/7 should have stuck together but time will tell, I'd prefer at this stage to take a big cut by legislation than sell out to this government in the way some unions have especially siptu, I've no respect for this government and less for unions who have sold out their members!

Pappa Charlie

oscar2 wrote: »

1980's may seem long away but institutions and organisations such as ours have a memory passed on by dinosaurs like myself so I'm sure there are Prison Officers wondering "If we stay in can the Guards be trusted?".

Firefighters are getting a carrot now because the Department of Environment has a big stick called "Keeping Communities Safe" coming down the tracks starting this year.

Another thing to remember is that SIPTU Firefighters could all vote against CPA2 and you'd never know because their vote will be swamped by other SIPTU members.

You are correct in saying big savings can be made by hitting nurses and Gardai but the government are still idiots to hit Gardai.

They'll need you lot to beat my lot off the street.

Take care.

The government don't believe that the Irish people will stand up to them and the unions are proof of this, no offence but your lot will not have to be beaten of the street by anyone because they won't be there, the only hammering they will get will be from the government when they come again for Croke park 3 because they will have seen the unions roll over so easy!!!

oscar2

Pappa Charlie wrote: »

The government don't believe that the Irish people will stand up to them and the unions are proof of this, no offence but your lot will not have to be beaten of the street by anyone because they won't be there, the only hammering they will get will be from the government when they come again for Croke park 3 because they will seeing as the unions rolled over so easy!!!

Unfortunately for me you're correct. If we don't stand now we'll be split and beaten as individual blocks.

Union leaders apart from a few honourable exceptions haven't served their members well and have protected their own personal and political agendas instead.

SB2013

Pappa Charlie wrote: »

The government don't believe that the Irish people will stand up to them and the unions are proof of this, no offence but your lot will not have to be beaten of the street by anyone because they won't be there, the only hammering they will get will be from the government when they come again for Croke park 3 because they will have seen the unions roll over so easy!!!

Better to drink from a smaller cup than a poisoned one.

Pappa Charlie

SB2013 wrote: »

Better to drink from a smaller cup than a poisoned one.

I only see poison on offer!