24/7 alliance...

Paulzx

ambo112 wrote: »

Not a great deal at all. More reason to join IFESA and NASRA, let the people who know what we do speak for us!

Speak from where?.......The basketball arena?

apc

Paulzx wrote: »

Much as i dislike the KCS document that is a nonsense comment. I suggest you go and find out what a 5 watch system actually means.


KCS is not mentioned in the "deal". However it is the elephant in the room...........but it is the elephant in the room irrespective of the Croke Park 11.

The choice is negotiate the KCS whilst still having your wages............or negotiate it after they've been cut. To think that it's going to go away either way is a fallacy.

Obiviously you havent read KCS. Check page 63

BTW SIPTU reps sat on the Directorate while this document was created, so in effect SIPTU have signed us up to it.

"In full time fire services, ‘four watch’ systems (based on dividing the hours in the
week 168/ 4 = 42 hour weeks) have been in place for many years. In 24/7 services,
changing from the ‘four-watch’ to a ‘five group duty system’ (based on dividing the
168/ 5 = 33.3 hrs) has potential to provide assured levels of staffing without
generating requirements for special compensatory leave and overtime, and can
facilitate full working shifts and enhanced team training. There have been
significant developments in fire services infrastructure, vehicles and equipment and
HR policies since the four watch system was introduced. All full-time fire services
should review their current service provision arrangements to determine if the five
group duty systems would enhance service provision and/ or provide better
efficiency/ value for money in delivering the same levels of services.
Each fire service will review its current service provision in light of the
standards set out in this Chapter, and should plan an optimum configuration
of stations and staffing arrangements based on the parameters set out in the
previous sections."

I do know what the 5 watch system means, but it depends on which one you mean LOUTH with no leave and dangerous manning levels, Scrathclyde with extra shifts owed, Cambrigdeshire with a bastardised rota and shift owed system, Manchester found unworkable after 5 years but left a damaged brigade behind.

Pappa Charlie

Paulzx wrote: »

Speak from where?.......The basketball arena?

I guess now that you have your deal the basketball arena protest was a bad idea!! Why didn't you state that at the time?

Paulzx

apc wrote: »

Obiviously you havent read KCS. Check page 63

BTW SIPTU reps sat on the Directorate while this document was created, so in effect SIPTU have signed us up to it.

"In full time fire services, ‘four watch’ systems (based on dividing the hours in the
week 168/ 4 = 42 hour weeks) have been in place for many years. In 24/7 services,
changing from the ‘four-watch’ to a ‘five group duty system’ (based on dividing the
168/ 5 = 33.3 hrs) has potential to provide assured levels of staffing without
generating requirements for special compensatory leave and overtime, and can
facilitate full working shifts and enhanced team training. There have been
significant developments in fire services infrastructure, vehicles and equipment and
HR policies since the four watch system was introduced. All full-time fire services
should review their current service provision arrangements to determine if the five
group duty systems would enhance service provision and/ or provide better
efficiency/ value for money in delivering the same levels of services.
Each fire service will review its current service provision in light of the
standards set out in this Chapter, and should plan an optimum configuration
of stations and staffing arrangements based on the parameters set out in the
previous sections."

You see, reading it and understanding it are 2 different things. The 5 watch system (which i think is a horrible system by the way) does not reduce the employees paid obligation of 39 hours.

People would be rostered on the basis of a 33 hour week but paid for the normal 39. They would then owe the employer on the basis of banked hours and would be liable to be called in when on rest days. How these are arranged is a local arrangement. It would supposedly negate the need to bring people in on overtime but requires extra employees.

Some of the uk brigades that went with this system are now looking to revert back.


It also said that brigades should review their rostering systems. It didn't say to implement a 5 watch system regardless.

KCS is not a statutory document. It is a policy document. It does not supersede the Fire servcies act or the Safety, Health and welfare at work act.

It has some absolutley braindead stuff in it but the CFO and county managers will ultimately take legal responsability for any decisions they make on the basis of it. Most of them realise this

Paulzx

Pappa Charlie wrote: »

I guess now that you have your deal the basketball arena protest was a bad idea!! Why didn't you state that at the time?

I didn't say it was a bad idea............it was actually a pretty good show of anger...........but a whole strategy cannot be built around nothing but anger.


I don't have any deal. I have no idea whether it will pass and i have not decided yet whether to vote for it.

However, getting emotive and stampeding from one union to another is not going to change things.

Everybody has the right to associate with whichever union they wish. I would never nor am i entitled to critisize individuals for their choice. I can however express an opinion on what i feel are mistakes by unions.

ambo112

I wouldn't see it as simple as one union to another. It is going from an all encompassing one to one which is tailored for our line of work.

crackcrack30

Paulzx wrote: »

Ambulance staff represented by Siptu will hopefully and should get something too.

The time for hoping and wishing has long gone in a bygone era......too much time has been spent with SIPTU waiting for crumbs from the table... or for what we are due anyway:rolleyes:......the public voted in this shower to end cronyisim and protect us from bankers and bondholders......what have we got in return only the strongarm of the German government.....

As for the public, the only thing that will make them take any notice is when there is no garda, no landings in dublin airport, no ambulance or PTS to keep the wheels of the hospitals moving, no A&E department, no fire responce ....I could go on.....

The fact of the matter is that we either go hungry for a week/ month or year or go hungry for the rest of our working lives.....I personaly believe it wont take a week.

Paulzx

ambo112 wrote: »

I wouldn't see it as simple as one union to another. It is going from an all encompassing one to one which is tailored for our line of work.

I completely get your point on this.

However, as far as i'm concerned IFESA have achieved nothing constructive for their members since inception. Making noise and posting on Facebook doesn't count. Neither does constant rhetoric. They have been promising recognition "soon" for how many years now. Maybe they'll get it, maybe they won't

ambo112

Paulzx wrote: »

I completely get your point on this.

However, as far as i'm concerned IFESA have achieved nothing constructive for their members since inception. Making noise and posting on Facebook doesn't count. Neither does constant rhetoric. They have been promising recognition "soon" for how many years now. Maybe they'll get it, maybe they won't

I absolutely agree, NASRA are the same but only because they don't have the backing. If they had 80% of staff backing they could do so much more for us all.

dfbemt

apc wrote: »

The Highlighted area ties members who accept this deal into the "Keeping Communities Safe " document which contains Manning level reductions and the introduction on a 5 watch system that will result in 6 hour reduction in there weekly wage.

Some Deal

Agree with you about KCS and the 5 watches but I don't think the 6 hour reduction is right.

Spoke to one of the crew in Louth and he tells me that there was no change at all in pay. Apart from so called full working shift which he says is in name but not in practice they ended up with more promotion opportunities and great time off. They are working 4 on 4 off and 18 full days off every 8 weeks. There is also overtime for them for the first time ever. They also get way more than we get for transfers.

I know we haven't had anything put to us yet but can it be that bad if thats the reform?

ambo112

NASRA will be on prime time in a few minutes.

supermedic

Yes , NASRA was on Primetime and MO'C made him look very silly indeed, a rep with no history of dealing with the press and a well briefed presenter, not a good recipe. We're not going to use our sat navs, but sure the ambulance control have one anyway..so it wont affect anything... and we have'nt been providing cover for public events for the last few years since THAT court case... and anything that we do will have no effect on patient care !!! Eh, well that will really frighten the NAS so !! did not come across well at all I'm afraid.

ambo112

No, wasnt great. But that's down to support aswell, if he was supported by all of us he could negotiate and fight for us.

We certainly can't turn around this early and go straight in with threats that could endanger patient care. Merely highlighting that we exist is a first!! Nice to see some kind of words about the ambulance service side of things as opposed to getting a mention on rte news at the end of a bulletin after everyone else as "ambulance drivers".

crackcrack30

Nice to see him on there,

I agree, he would need to strenghten his interview skills, no-one is going to give you a free ride in this saga......he needs to have 2 factual answers to every conciveable question practiced off.....and he needs to have his own headline points that have to be gotten out wheather they are relavant to the line of questioning or not.....but give him a while

.....I think all in all not bad... even if the same degree of threat of action and disruption was not forecoming, the GRA had their headline eyeopener of a mass resignation mooted & fair play to them....

It would be nice at a future date to be able to tell the interviewer that he speaks for and has the undevided interests of all ambulance personel at stake regardless of grade.....somewhat like the GRA...

apc

dfbemt wrote: »

Agree with you about KCS and the 5 watches but I don't think the 6 hour reduction is right.

Spoke to one of the crew in Louth and he tells me that there was no change at all in pay. Apart from so called full working shift which he says is in name but not in practice they ended up with more promotion opportunities and great time off. They are working 4 on 4 off and 18 full days off every 8 weeks. There is also overtime for them for the first time ever. They also get way more than we get for transfers.

I know we haven't had anything put to us yet but can it be that bad if thats the reform?

Ok Maybe I am off on the pay, although I still think there is a reduction BUT its an improvement where they came from but not from where we come from - NO LEAVE - it is built into your 2 weeks/18 days off so you could possibily work the 8 weeks of 2/2/4 through the summer with no leave.
No days leave

They work 12 hour shifts, ask them about rest facilities
You owe between 7 and 14 shifts per year
Swaps are very few

The shift is 2/2/4 for 8 weeks off for 14 days on for 8 weeks off for 18 days on for 8 weeks etc

About promotions, there crewing per station is 1 SO, 1 SSO and 3 FF thats it, the SSO rides in the back as a FF

Checkout page 46 of this link
http://www.louthcoco.ie/en/Services/Fire_Rescue_Services/Operational_Fire_Service/Section_26.pdf

Celticfire

apc wrote: »

Supermedic What you misunderstood was that Mr Kidd said was, that the number of Firefighters leaving SIPTU to join IFESA caused SIPTU to get this deal after the talks on CP2 were finished, thats why it wasnt included in the printed proposal unlike the POAs deal which is part of the printed propsal. He also said that the members of IFESA would ultimately decide on wether this deal is acceptable to them but that his opinion was that it isnt and that IFESA fully support the 24/7 alliance

The master of spin. strange how when talks were finished IFESA slated SIPTU for loosing 10% of Firefighters pay, except they jumped the gun and had to change tact and accuse SIPTU of accepting KCS, and when this wasn't true he changed again and now won't leave 24/7 behind

ambo112 wrote: »

My two cents....

Call me paranoid but I am convinced SIPTU and the government are in bed together and are trying to shaft us, only SIPTU are trying to make the medicine sweet. SIPTU are the governments PR body that get us to agree.

I was a member of SIPTU and NASRA but I rang SIPTU this morning and cancelled my membership.

It only makes sense for the fire and rescue services along with the National Ambulance Service to have their own unions. Our roles are like nothing else in the public service. We are a small number of people. With our own unions we would be able to get the recognition, budgets and pay we need. Those unions would be able to publicly highlight shortcomings in our areas of work which SIPTU never do!! A massive amount of NAS station are in dangerous disrepair, we are not recognised as paramedics by our employer, we do not have adequate sick/injury cover, I could go on and on.

We NEED to have our own unions that understand our roles first hand and can fight for us. We cannot be considered in the same role as 9-5 admin staff.

IFESA and NASRA are our voice and all they need is our support. They are willing to do what we all are screaming for SIPTU to do.

LEAVE SIPTU and join NASRA or IFESA now!!!!! Bring on the storm!!

Another storm monger eh? Just like the IFESA chairman. He'd been dying to get a strike going for the last six years.

Pappa Charlie wrote: »

If the government are going around offering sweeteners then clearly the best deal that could have been negotiated at the talks table was not got, it's the 24/7 action that has brought on the sweetners, jack o Conner has mellowed a bit today but he's shown his colours and his credibility is gone!

Offering sweetners? How about the union actually doing what it was paid to do and represent it's members and fight for the deals it got?

"27th February, 2013

Mr. Tom Geraghty, Secretary Public Services Committee, ICTU.
RE: Local Government Fire Service
Dear Mr Geraghty,

I am writing to confirm that, subject to ratification of the Labour
Relations Commission proposals on the extension to the Croke Park
Agreement 2013 – 2016, the following has been agreed between the
parties:
In the context of the on-going reform process in the
full-time fire service, which will generate significant savings, the
totality of the pay structure in respect of full-time fire- fighters
will not be affected by the proposals in this Agreement. However, this
does not apply to the additional voluntary hours worked outside the
rostered commitment. In such circumstances, the overtime rates that
apply on a national basis in the sector will apply to full-time
fire-fighters and the commitment in the agreement in respect of one
unpaid overtime hour per week will also apply to full-time fire-fighters
in respect of voluntary hours only.

Yours sincerely,"

The Highlighted area ties members who accept this deal into the "Keeping Communities Safe " document which contains Manning level reductions and the introduction on a 5 watch system that will result in 6 hour reduction in there weekly wage.

Some Deal

BS, and you know it. KCS is a policy document not the firefighters bible. Each CFO will make his/her decisions on what they think appropriate. Also IFESA tried to spin that this was accepted.....more Lies .When KCS rears it's head it will be dealt with the same as any other IR issue.

Pappa Charlie wrote: »

I guess now that you have your deal the basketball arena protest was a bad idea!! Why didn't you state that at the time?

You seem to think all Firefighters are part of 24/7. Only the ones that have no recognition from management and have had no part in any negotiations, neither they nor their parent union the PNA are in congress.

ambo112 wrote: »

I wouldn't see it as simple as one union to another. It is going from an all encompassing one to one which is tailored for our line of work.

That used to be IFESA's mantra, Firefighters for Firefighters. But they want to reject a deal that secures most of Firefighters pay

apc wrote: »

Ok Maybe I am off on the pay, although I still think there is a reduction

Thinks, Perhaps, Maybe..... Who knows?..... you said it like it was gospel

apc

Celticfire wrote: »

BS, and you know it. KCS is a policy document not the firefighters bible. Each CFO will make his/her decisions on what they think appropriate. Also IFESA tried to spin that this was accepted.....more Lies .When KCS rears it's head it will be dealt with the same as any other IR issue.l

Thats always been the issue with SIPTU, they cant deal with anything on a National Level. Do you think Dublin or Cork will jump up and down when they try to bring the 5 watch system into Galway, they will like hell. They will be off trying to do their own deal and protect themselves while sacrificing the smaller Brigades.

They have done it in the past.

NICS was supposed to be a National Issue that failed to be fought as a national issue because Cork and Dublin had there own ICS so the National one didnt realy apply to them, so low and behold it still is not resolved

Also remember SIPTU took up the 2 vacant places on the Directorate and were present during the talks on KCS, I wonder is that why SIPTU so slow in balloting their members on KCS as was promised last November or are they so slow because its tied into CP2

On your last point that it will be dealt with under IR, it will be dealt with under CP and will be implemented when the 6 week trigger is pulled while going through the process, and once in ,it stays in.

Celticfire

apc wrote: »

Also remember SIPTU took up the 2 vacant places on the Directorate and were present during the talks on KCS, I wonder is that why SIPTU so slow in balloting their members on KCS as was promised last November or are they so slow because its tied into CP2

On your last point that it will be dealt with under IR, it will be dealt with under CP and will be implemented when the 6 week trigger is pulled while going through the process, and once in ,it stays in.

Indeed they did and met with resistance during the entire process. You seem to think that balloting nearly 4 month before a document is released is good practice, well I suppose it is if you want to get the scaremongering train off the platform nice and early.

apc

Celticfire wrote: »

Indeed they did and met with resistance during the entire process. You seem to think that balloting nearly 4 month before a document is released is good practice, well I suppose it is if you want to get the scaremongering train off the platform nice and early.

I am not saying it should be voted on 4 months early all I am saying that its slow in even deciding on the ballot.

But at least you admit that its more than a policy document and at least you havent taken the latest SIPTU line that the document is off the table for this deal.

KCS is here to stay unless SIPTU know more than they are saying.

It will be a massive test for SIPTUs National Fulltime Firefighters committee to pull together on. It will be very interesting to see unfold.
Hopefully it will be handled better than the NICS.
Best of luck with that.

dfbemt

apc wrote: »

Ok Maybe I am off on the pay, although I still think there is a reduction BUT its an improvement where they came from but not from where we come from

FACT - They suffered no loss of pay. For the fulltime who were already there they gained no pay. The gain in pay was from the retained who all got fulltime jobs. I'll repeat it so it is clear to you - Louth suffered NO LOSS OF PAY by moving to the 5 watch system

- NO LEAVE - it is built into your 2 weeks/18 days off so you could possibily work the 8 weeks of 2/2/4 through the summer with no leave.
No days leave

The shift is 2/2/4 for 8 weeks off for 14 days on for 8 weeks off for 18 days on for 8 weeks etc

But this is better than the system we have. If I get my annual in April I get no more leave until Winter leave starts at the end of Sept. That is 5 months without leave. Louth only have to go 8 weeks. At the end of every 8 weeks they end up with 18 days off. So as well as 4 days off out of every 8 days they also get 18 days off every 10 weeks. Work 8 weeks, then 2 weeks off. Superb leave arrangements

They work 12 hour shifts, ask them about rest facilities

I have. TV room in each station has a recliner for everybody plus there are fold up beds which get brought out at midnight although some officers allow them at 10.30. I visited Drogheda when they got their new station. Fantastic place. Have you seen their gym and mess?

You owe between 7 and 14 shifts per year

Yes, the only drawback if you can call it that. You get rostered for certain days - 2 days every 3 weeks - when you can be called in but you cannot be called in outside of this. If the shifts arnt used by the end of the year they get cancelled. I am told that there is no way will theese hours be used. Some fellas reckon they will get between 2 and 4 extra weeks holidays every year that they have already been paid for

Swaps are very few

Swaps get approved by the SO and nobody else. If you want them you get them. Nobody has been turned down yet

About promotions, there crewing per station is 1 SO, 1 SSO and 3 FF thats it, the SSO rides in the back as a FF

Don't see a problem here. An extra watch means extra DO's, SO's and Subbies.

And dont forget the Brucie Bonus. 5 watches doing the ambo instead of 4 means less ambo.

If that's the change they want us to do where do I sign

apc

I stand corrected bring on the KCS and the 5 watch system. Thank you ,I didnt know what I was missing mind you I doubt all your colleagues will see it your way, but then again DFB will do what suits DFB

Paulzx

apc wrote: »

, but then again DFB will do what suits DFB

.........as distinct from doing what suits....maybe.........Hong Kong Fire Brigade?

What a stupid statement.


What the hell is your hang up with DFB?......................actually, no I dont want to know

apc

Paulzx wrote: »

.........as distinct from doing what suits....maybe.........Hong Kong Fire Brigade?

What a stupid statement.


What the hell is your hang up with DFB?......................actually, no I dont want to know

I actually have no hangup with DFB, ( DFB are a lead member of the National Committee and are better resourced union wise with a convenor) but is the ability of SIPTU to act at a National Level in regard to the KCS and seeing as DFB has the largest number of Firefighters who are members of SIPTU it will be interesting to see how it pans out from SIPTUs point of view if one of the smaller brigades has an issue with KCS.

Is it one for all and all for one nationally

Celticfire

apc wrote: »

I am not saying it should be voted on 4 months early all I am saying that its slow in even deciding on the ballot.

A decision was made in November, and again when document was released. A ballot only has a limited lifespan and a ballot would be needed again before any industrial action would or could be taken. The implementation time span for KCS is three years..

But at least you admit that its more than a policy document and at least you havent taken the latest SIPTU line that the document is off the table for this deal.

Read again, and yes it is off the table for CP2, it will be a battle for another day

KCS is here to stay unless SIPTU know more than they are saying.

SIPTU have never said otherwise.

It will be a massive test for SIPTUs National Fulltime Firefighters committee to pull together on. It will be very interesting to see unfold.
Hopefully it will be handled better than the NICS.
Best of luck with that.

Thanks


So for the last time acceptance of KCS is not part of CP2

apc

Celticfire wrote: »

So for the last time acceptance of KCS is not part of CP2

Can that be produced in writing or is it just a sound bite. If you got that in writing then great, it puts alot of minds at ease.

Celticfire

apc wrote: »

Can that be produced in writing or is it just a sound bite. If you got that in writing then great, it puts alot of minds at ease.

Perhaps if you had been at Liberty Hall last night you could have gotten your reassurance.

apc

Celticfire wrote: »

Perhaps if you had been at Liberty Hall last night you could have gotten your reassurance.

Is it off the table or is it off the table for now and do you have that in writing.
As I wasnt in Dublin last night I couldnt go to liberty hall.

Or maybe its only off the table for Dublin?

Celticfire

apc wrote: »

Is it off the table or is it off the table for now and do you have that in writing.
As I wasnt in Dublin last night I couldnt go to liberty hall.

Or maybe its only off the table for Dublin?

It's not off the table as regards it will still have to be negotiated, It's not going away. I said and I'll say it again acceptance of KCS was not part of CP2

apc

Celticfire wrote: »

It's not off the table as regards it will still have to be negotiated, It's not going away. I said and I'll say it again acceptance of KCS was not part of CP2

Ok I see where you are at, so Acceptance of CP2 is not an acceptance of KCS,but there is nothing to stop them throwing KCS on the table after acceptance of CP2 as part of on-going reform of the Fire Service to which Mr. Howlin stated last year that the majority of savings in the Fire Service will be through rostering.

I would still like to see that in writing from the Dept of Public Expenditure and Reform cause I bet thats what they have in mind when they mention On going reform.

Now would the fact that previously the SIPTU National Firefighters Comm had decided not to take up the Directorate positions as they questioned there role and benefit of such positions, and then SIPTU temselves unknown to the Comm took up the vacant seats on the Directorate and that they were involved in the creation of this "Policy" have any bearing on the ongoing reform of the FireService.

Could one say SIPTU have already signed up to it. All I am worried about is that a deal has been done unknown to us that will come to bite us in the near future

Paulzx

apc wrote: »

Ok I see where you are at, so Acceptance of CP2 is not an acceptance of KCS,but there is nothing to stop them throwing KCS on the table after acceptance of CP2 as part of on-going reform of the Fire Service to which Mr. Howlin stated last year that the majority of savings in the Fire Service will be through rostering.

I would still like to see that in writing from the Dept of Public Expenditure and Reform cause I bet thats what they have in mind when they mention On going reform.

Now would the fact that previously the SIPTU National Firefighters Comm had decided not to take up the Directorate positions as they questioned there role and benefit of such positions, and then SIPTU temselves unknown to the Comm took up the vacant seats on the Directorate and that they were involved in the creation of this "Policy" have any bearing on the ongoing reform of the FireService.

Could one say SIPTU have already signed up to it. All I am worried about is that a deal has been done unknown to us that will come to bite us in the near future

There's reds under the beds as well.


Look, The KCS document is coming down the road i.e the negotiations for it will start at some stage. This is going to happen whether CP2 is passed or not. As has been proven by the CP2 talks, being in the room objecting provides a better outcome than not being there.


Sticking our fingers in our ears and shouting NAH NAH NAH aint going to make the KCS go away. CP2 deal or no CP2 deal it will have to addressed. Some groups seem to think that it's going to disappear with a no vote. It will in it's boll*x