Hare Coursing

paddy the man · 03-03-2013 10:58PM

Sparks wrote: »

That study (which is again quoting Reid, 2007) specifically refers to mortality during coursing events. So presumably injury is the cause, though it's not stated explicitly.

Injuries since muzzling are minimal and do not account for the 4.1%. You should know that since I presume you attend meeting regularly. Are you a farmer by any chance and I will try and further explain Capture myopathy to you?

Sparks · 03-03-2013 11:03PM

paddy the man wrote: »

Injuries since muzzling are minimal and do not account for the 4.1%.

From that citation:

Official records, corroborated by independent video evidence, were used to assess the fate of individual Irish hares (Lepus timidus hibernicus) during coursing events from 1988–2004

And 4.1% is minimal.

Benny Cake · 03-03-2013 11:08PM

Sparks wrote: »

From that citation:And 4.1% is minimal.

I'd hazard a guess that the figure is now even lower than 4.1%. The ICC have gone to great lengths to educate coursing clubs around the country in hare husbandry. I attended approx. 15 meetings and the standard of hare was exceptional with the national meeting being a particular highlight....

paddy the man · 03-03-2013 11:09PM

Sparks wrote: »

Unlikely since the areas were chosen so that no translocation occurs.
From Reid et al, 2010:

You are suggesting that an individual measurement be taken as indicative of a species' population across an entire country. We both know that can't be done with any degree of reliability whatsoever.

It's also not merely a matter of concentrating populations into one area. Again from Reid et al:

Predator control, banning of shooting, improved fodder, anthelminthic prophylaxis all contribute to high densities in ICC preserves as do translocations. On my farm foxes are lamped, grassland has a traditional native meadow, no shooting of Hares and certainly no one nets them. All these factors result in good numbers

Saying Irish Hares will become extinct if Coursing is banned( which you said) is frankly stupid. Coursing only occurs (if I'm correct in 3 European Countries) Why have Mountain Hares not becomes extinct in those Countries. The Mountain Hare is even listed as Least Concern.

fourleafclover · 03-03-2013 11:09PM

paddy the man wrote: »

The 4.1% mortality rate is in the link you provided.:rolleyes:
You said Hares are not restrained. They are caught in nets and put into transport crates. They are handled on numerous occasions. How is that not being restrained. What causes the 4.1% mortality?

Exactly paddy, the 4.1% mortality rate you brought up is not indicative of the point you are trying to make, you should read the paragraph after it, better yet read the report in full. Furthermore illness, injury etc which believe it or not actually occurs in the wild is also accounted for in the 4.1%. It is very easy to pick figures and utilise them to your own means but when the true facts are laid out your argument is left lacking depth paddy.

Regarding restraint I think you will find that coursing hares are not restrained in the way you portray. They are kept in paddocks where they are loose and free and very well nourished. You are correct in saying they are put into specifically designed boxes, this occurs when hares are transported from the coursing to the release preserve or prior to a course. But the time spent in the aforementioned designed boxes is also quite minimal, similar to a 30 minute car journey for example, now I think you will find that children are kept in child seats whilst travelling for a lot longer periods than hares yet they do not suffer from capture myopathy. Quite astounding is it not.

Sparks · 03-03-2013 11:11PM

Benny Cake wrote: »

I'd hazard a guess that the figure is now even lower than 4.1%. The ICC have gone to great lengths to educate coursing clubs around the country in hare husbandry. I attended approx. 15 meetings and the standard of hare was exceptional with the national meeting being a particular highlight....

There's a discrepency between the ICC records (4.1%) and video records (1.9%) allright. But unless every meet was taped, you'd expect *some* discrepency. Also, that number is now six years old, it could have come down since.

fourleafclover · 03-03-2013 11:16PM

Sparks wrote: »

There's a discrepency between the ICC records (4.1%) and video records (1.9%) allright. But unless every meet was taped, you'd expect *some* discrepency. Also, that number is now six years old, it could have come down since.

I think (and I stress that I think) that the national meetings rate was 0.96%

paddy the man · 03-03-2013 11:20PM

fourleafclover wrote: »

Exactly paddy, the 4.1% mortality rate you brought up is not indicative of the point you are trying to make, you should read the paragraph after it, better yet read the report in full. Furthermore illness, injury etc which believe it or not actually occurs in the wild is also accounted for in the 4.1%. It is very easy to pick figures and utilise them to your own means but when the true facts are laid out you are left quietened paddy.

Regarding restraint I think you will find that coursing hares are not restrained in the way you portray. They are kept in paddocks where they are loose and free and very well nourished. You are correct in saying they are put into specifically designed boxes, this occurs when hares are transported from the coursing to the release preserve or prior to a course. But the time spent in the aforementioned designed boxes is also quite minimal, similar to a 30 minute car journey for example, now I think you will find that children are kept in child seats whilst travelling for a lot longer periods than hares yet they do not suffer from capture myopathy. Quite astounding is it not.

Comparing transportation of children to a wild animals is retarded. Children are well used to traveling in cars. Are they trapped in nets prior to being put in the car or manhandled into boxes? Hares are not adapted to traveling in confined condtions since there fúcking wild animals. Even take an example of stress in transportation in domestic animals like cattle. Cattle would not be used to transportation. If you buy cattle in the mart when you bring them home and good proportion will get pneumonia due to the stress of transport/mart (Shipping fever)

Benny Cake · 03-03-2013 11:24PM

paddy the man wrote: »

Cattle would not be used to transportation. If you buy cattle in the mart when you bring them home and good proportion will get pneumonia due to the stress of transport/mart (Shipping fever)

I suppose you'll want to ban farming next.... :rolleyes:

paddy the man · 03-03-2013 11:28PM

Benny Cake wrote: »

I suppose you'll want to ban farming next.... :rolleyes:

I have a farm pal. Hares suffer from far greater stress due to confinement, caprture, overstocking than a domestic animal would

fourleafclover · 03-03-2013 11:32PM

paddy the man wrote: »

Comparing transportation of children to a wild animals is retarded. Children are well used to traveling in cars. Are they trapped in nets prior to being put in the car or manhandled into boxes? Hares are not adapted to traveling in confined condtions since there fúcking wild animals. Even take an example of stress in transportation in domestic animals like cattle. Cattle would not be used to transportation. If you buy cattle in the mart when you bring them home and good proportion will get pneumonia due to the stress of transport/mart (Shipping fever)

Paddy when you have to resort to language and ranting you are losing the argument.

Now paddy what I would ask you to do is get back to the nature of your initial posts where you stated that the ICC accept capture myopathy and that capture myopathy occurs in the irish hare, could you please provide us with links etc to prove your point, personal utterings are quite frivolous.

Secondly could you tell us how you know that the Irish Hare population in your area is quite good, again personal views are farcical, facts and numbers are required for your argument?

Finally you must be the most unsuccessful farmer in West Mayo if you can not transport your animals to the factory or the mart or even to another farm for fear of "shipping fever", again this ia a phrase popular with anti live trade activism. Is it possible that you are telling a few little porkies to us paddy (excuse the animal pun, i hope it does not offend).

Sparks · 03-03-2013 11:47PM

I'm not sure I understand this capture myopathy argument to be honest. I keep reading the only reference I see cited in searches (Rendle, 2006), but it spends most of its time saying that the indicators and stages of capture myopathy are identical to dietary or pathogenic problems; and that death can occur without warning at any time and look exactly like natural causes.

Well, okay; but if you can't test for it, and you can't tell its symptoms from the symptoms of other common problems; and you can't distinguish it post-mortem from other natural causes.... how do you know it's really there?

I mean, occams razor says that it isn't; that the symptoms which Rendle says can be mistaken for dietary or pathogenic causes are, in fact, dietary or pathogenic causes; and that the post-mortem signs which Rendle says are indistinguishable from natural causes are, in fact, natural causes. Even the cases he describes as acute, he says are consistent with other causes of death.

So how the heck does anyone know it's real if you can't test for it or see it before, during, or after death?

Sparks · 03-03-2013 11:52PM

paddy the man wrote: »

Saying Irish Hares will become extinct if Coursing is banned( which you said) is frankly stupid. Coursing only occurs (if I'm correct in 3 European Countries) Why have Mountain Hares not becomes extinct in those Countries. The Mountain Hare is even listed as Least Concern.

The Irish Hare was listed as having "poor" conservation status in 2009.

fourleafclover · 03-03-2013 11:52PM

Sparks wrote: »

I'm not sure I understand this capture myopathy argument to be honest. I keep reading the only reference I see cited in searches (Rendle, 2006), but it spends most of its time saying that the indicators and stages of capture myopathy are identical to dietary or pathogenic problems; and that death can occur without warning at any time and look exactly like natural causes.

Well, okay; but if you can't test for it, and you can't tell its symptoms from the symptoms of other common problems; and you can't distinguish it post-mortem from other natural causes.... how do you know it's really there?

I mean, occams razor says that it isn't; that the symptoms which Rendle says can be mistaken for dietary or pathogenic causes are, in fact, dietary or pathogenic causes; and that the post-mortem signs which Rendle says are indistinguishable from natural causes are, in fact, natural causes. Even the cases he describes as acute, he says are consistent with other causes of death.

So how the heck does anyone know it's real if you can't test for it or see it before, during, or after death?

Exactly Sparks, could I ask you to delve into who Mike Rendle is a bit further, you will probably not believe it but he is.......... wait for it - an animal rights activist and anti-coursing campaigner!!

here is a link read three quarters of the way down - http://www.hare-preservation-trust.co.uk/aims.html

paddy the man · 03-03-2013 11:53PM

fourleafclover wrote: »

Paddy when you have to resort to language and ranting you are losing the argument.
.

Your made such a retarded point comparing transport of children to transport of wild Hares and couldn't but use the word fúcking. Do you admit it was a foolish comparison?

Now paddy what I would ask you to do is get back to the nature of your initial posts where you stated that the ICC accept capture myopathy and that capture myopathy occurs in the irish hare, could you please provide us with links etc to prove your point, personal utterings are quite frivolous.

From discussions with Vets in the ICC who recognise Capture Myopathy.

Secondly could you tell us how you know that the Irish Hare population in your area is quite good, again personal views are farcical, facts and numbers are required for your argument?

Do you believe that with the conditions present on my farm would be helpful to good Hare numbers? Just because there is no Coursing Club in the area doesn't mean that Hare numbers will be low. The area has extensive agriculture which is helpful to Hare numbers. The main cause of decline in Hare numbers over the last century is intensive agriculture.

Finally you must be the most unsuccessful farmer in West Mayo if you can not transport your animals to the factory or the mart or even to another farm for fear of "shipping fever", again this ia a phrase popular with anti live trade activism. Is it possible that you are telling a few little porkies to us paddy (excuse the animal pun, i hope it does not offend)

I never said I don't bring cattle to the mart. Shipping fever is a term used by Vets. The local vet uses it, or do you say that that disease conditions doesn't exist either. http://www.merckvetmanual.com/mvm/index.jsp?cfile=htm/bc/121208.htm

paddy the man · 04-03-2013 12:00AM

Sparks wrote: »

The Irish Hare was listed as having "poor" conservation status in 2009.

Yes it does have a poor conservation status. The point I was making was that you said Irish Hares would become extinct if coursing was banned. The Mountain Hare (Irish Hare is a Mountain Hare) exists in other Countries where no Coursing takes place.

fourleafclover · 04-03-2013 12:15AM

paddy the man wrote: »

From discussions with Vets in the ICC who recognise Capture Myopathy.

The ICC does not have any vet in their permanent employ. So how you know one in the ICC is beyond me.

What is of further interest is that a man who claims he has no coursing in his area claims he knows vets involved in coursing that are familiar with a phrase that has very little credibility. Paddy unless you can produce hard fact or a statement or a link to validate your point I can only but presume that you are lying and lying on a gross scale at this stage.

Furthermore you are now trying to say that the habitat of your farm is indusive to a thriving hare population, previously you have told us that hares are actually thriving, which is it?

Perhaps, rather than swallowing every little phrase or fact or figure thrown to you or brainwashed into you, you should question for yourself their validity, I suggest you read up on capture myopathy and I strenuously stress that you read up on the authors of the same, I have brought this to attention above. I will produce another study regarding it if you wish, but to paraphrase from it, it concludes that of 11 hares released two died and "although one had been eaten the death of both specimens was not determined". Yet it was diagnosed as capture myopathy by a specific group with an anti coursing interest, does that make sense to you? Does it sound valid to you? Perhaps you really need to open your eyes.

paddy the man · 04-03-2013 12:38AM

fourleafclover wrote: »

The ICC does not have any vet in their permanent employ. So how you know one in the ICC is beyond me.

What is of further interest is that a man who claims he has no coursing in his area claims he knows vets involved in coursing that are familiar with a phrase that has very little credibility. Paddy unless you can produce hard fact or a statement or a link to validate your point I can only but presume that you are lying and lying on a gross scale at this stage.
.

I have ventured out of West Mayo on occasions. I attended many a Coursing meeting in Ballyragget in my younger days. Just because there's no Coursing club in the area doesn't mean that I don't know anybody in Coursing. That's a bit foolish of you.

Furthermore you are now trying to say that the habitat of your farm is indusive to a thriving hare population, previously you have told us that hares are actually thriving, which is it?

There are a healthy population of Harers in my area. Where did I say there wasn't? Answer some of my questions. Do you believe that with the conditions present on my farm would be helpful to good Hare numbers? Your made such a retarded point comparing transport of children to transport of wild Hares . Do you admit it was a foolish comparison?

I will produce another study regarding it if you wish, but to paraphrase from it, it concludes that of 11 hares released two died and "although one had been eaten the death of both specimens was not determined". Yet it was diagnosed as capture myopathy by a specific group with an anti coursing interest, does that make sense to you? Does it sound valid to you? Perhaps you really need to open your eyes.

A sample study of 11 hares would not produce any conclusive results. Unless a post mortem was carried out by a Vet I would not believe the results.

fourleafclover · 04-03-2013 01:04AM

paddy the man wrote: »

I have ventured out of West Mayo on occasions. I attended many a Coursing meeting in Ballyragget in my younger days. Just because there's no Coursing club in the area doesn't mean that I don't know anybody in Coursing. That's a bit foolish of you.

There are a healthy population of Harers in my area. Where did I say there wasn't? Answer some of my questions. Do you believe that with the conditions present on my farm would be helpful to good Hare numbers? Your made such a retarded point comparing transport of children to transport of wild Hares . Do you admit it was a foolish comparison?

A sample study of 11 hares would not produce any conclusive results.

I never said you do not know anybody in coursing, i'm saying that it is one big coincidence that you know vets who are in the ICC (yet the ICC does not employ any vet on a permanent basis) and that these vets agree with you regarding capture myopathy, which is an under studied and unverified diagnosis. Frankly Paddy i think you are talking through your behind. This discussion has come about by you saying the ICC accepts capture myopathy, yet you have not once produced any evidence to support the same despite being asked on numerous occasions.

Your farm may be indusive to the Irish Hare, I do not know anything about your farm or whether it really exists or not, perhaps you could give us the latitude and longtittude, or general grid references or anything at all? What I questioned is your statement that Hares were thriving in your area, I question how you know this? How you know what comparative numbers are and what University or Department undertook such a study, your word alone is not enough i'm afraid.

Regarding transport I compared it to show you how idiotic a so called cause of capture myopathy sounds, paddy you replied by telling me that children are used to travelling in cars did you not? Paddy I have yet to meet anybody who has never travelled in a car for the first time, have you!?!
(ps I think it quite vulgar you use the phrase retarded, and not for the first time in your posts, shame on you!)

Finally paddy we agree on something, I knew you would see the light!! You are correct a study of 11 hares would not produce conclusive results, so why in gods name does an anti coursing group claim that it does?!

paddy the man · 04-03-2013 02:24AM

fourleafclover wrote: »

Your farm may be indusive to the Irish Hare, I do not know anything about your farm or whether it really exists or not, perhaps you could give us the latitude and longtittude, or general grid references or anything at all? What I questioned is your statement that Hares were thriving in your area, I question how you know this? How you know what comparative numbers are and what University or Department undertook such a study, your word alone is not enough i'm afraid.
!

On my farm foxes are lamped, grassland has a traditional native meadow, no shooting of Hares and certainly no one nets them. All these factors result in good numbers. I ain't going to give my exact home location on a public board. Would these conditions lend to good conditions to Irish Hares??? If ever I fall into a fortune I will get University to do a full survey over several years of Hare numbers in my area

Regarding transport I compared it to show you how idiotic a so called cause of capture myopathy sounds, paddy you replied by telling me that children are used to travelling in cars did you not? Paddy I have yet to meet anybody who has never travelled in a car for the first time, have you!?!
(ps I think it quite vulgar you use the phrase retarded, and not for the first time in your posts, shame on you!)

Jaysus lad there is a big difference in stress levels to a child traveling for the first time in a car and a wild prey species being netted and put in a box and being transported. Why can't you comprehend that

. I guess if you don't have the ability to grasp that point there's no point in trying to explain Capture Myopathy to you. Would you believe in Shipping fever in cattle or is that "anti" propaganda as well???

Finally paddy we agree on something, I knew you would see the light!! You are correct a study of 11 hares would not produce conclusive results, so why in gods name does an anti coursing group claim that it does?

There are retards on the anti coursing groups just as there are retards on the pro coursing groups

studiorat · 04-03-2013 08:33AM

ScumLord wrote: »

It would be more like me getting chased by two guys with ball gags in their mouths and their hands tied behind their back.

No that sounds like real sport. With a rabbit stuck up your hole to perhaps?

smash · 04-03-2013 09:10AM

I'm surprised that so many on the poll agree with it. It's horrible!

im invisible · 04-03-2013 09:17AM

The lads on the hunting forum must have infiltrated after hours

homerhop · 04-03-2013 10:28AM

im invisible wrote: »

The lads on the hunting forum must have infiltrated after hours

Didn't realise there was a rule they were not allowed to post in AH

fourleafclover · 04-03-2013 10:33AM

fourleafclover wrote: »

I never said you do not know anybody in coursing, i'm saying that it is one big coincidence that you know vets who are in the ICC (yet the ICC does not employ any vet on a permanent basis) and that these vets agree with you regarding capture myopathy, which is an under studied and unverified diagnosis. Frankly Paddy i think you are talking through your behind. This discussion has come about by you saying the ICC accepts capture myopathy, yet you have not once produced any evidence to support the same despite being asked on numerous occasions!

PADDYTHEMAN

Why do you not respond to the crux of your argument over numerous posts?

Where is your data regarding Capture Myopathy and the Irish Hare? We can all look it up on google, but if you read the reports they are quite light on fact and the main author - Mike Rendle - is an anti coursing activist. That should explain it enough, even to your basic mind paddy.

paddy the man · 04-03-2013 10:44AM

fourleafclover wrote: »

PADDYTHEMAN

Why do you not respond to the crux of your argument over numerous posts?

Where is your data regarding Capture Myopathy and the Irish Hare? We can all look it up on google, but if you read the reports they are quite light on fact and the main author - Mike Rendle - is an anti coursing activist. That should explain it enough, even to your basic mind paddy.

I gave my answer to that.
What you don't you answer my questions?
Is Shipping fever a made up diseaseas well?
Are the conditions on my farm helpful to Hares?
Your made such a retarded point comparing transport of children to transport of wild Hares.You commented that children don't get Capture Myopathy in cars so Hares shouldn't either. Do you admit it was a foolish comparison?
Other questions.....
What are your views on the introduction of non-native Brown Hares into this Country for Coursing?

smash · 04-03-2013 10:46AM

paddy the man wrote: »

What are your views on the introduction of non-native Brown Hares into this Country for Coursing?

Why would anyone want to introduce a new species just so they can kill it?

Sparks · 04-03-2013 10:49AM

smash wrote: »

Why would anyone want to introduce a new species just so they can kill it?

They wouldn't. The numbers show that if they introduced the brown hare, the coursing would have a mortality rate somewhere between under 1% and 4.1%; while natural predation causes a mortality rate that's almost 80% for leverets and over 50% for adults. If they did introduce it, it'd have a better chance being coursed than not; which isn't intuitive, but is backed by the facts.

Sparks · 04-03-2013 10:51AM

paddy the man wrote: »

I gave my answer to that.

Sorry paddy, I missed that post, where was it?

Are the conditions on my farm helpful to Hares?

It sounds like it to me. But all the studies say your farm is not the norm.

fourleafclover · 04-03-2013 10:56AM

paddy the man wrote: »

I gave my answer to that.
What you don't you answer my questions?
Is Shipping fever a made up diseaseas well?
Are the conditions on my farm helpful to Hares?
Your made such a retarded point comparing transport of children to transport of wild Hares.You commented that children don't get Capture Myopathy in cars so Hares shouldn't either. Do you admit it was a foolish comparison?
Other questions.....
What are your views on the introduction of non-native Brown Hares into this Country for Coursing?

Telling me you know people who go coursing is not an answer.

Regarding your farm, I do not get your point. Perhaps you should take it up with Quercus regarding their study of the irish hare that for some reason they did not check the hare stock on paddys farm, their report must be wrong!! Then again we only have your word (which holds little water judging by your responses) that hares are populant on your farm.

I stand over my posts, perhaps you should read them properly, they do make sense, whereas you seem to be suffering from "groundhog day"! By the way that is a makey uppy diagnosis too paddy ;-)

Hare Coursing

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