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Hare Coursing

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    #662
    Sparks
    Registered Users Posts: 40,038 ✭✭✭✭Sparks


    smash wrote: »
    Do the people involved in coursing do this at the moment?
    Yes; see the cited studies above.
    Hell, it's not even entertaining.
    The studies say it works. It might not be as entertaining to some as it is to others, but I'll take "it works" over that any day of the week and twice on sunday.


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    #663
    osarusan
    Registered Users Posts: 16,588 ✭✭✭✭osarusan


    Sparks wrote: »

    You might not like it, and I can't blame you for that, but it works - so you have to ask yourself if you think your discomfort with an idea is sufficient to abandon a working system that's preventing the extinction of an entire species when you have no other system to adopt in its place?

    To be honest, I think at least some of the anger on this thread was due to the refusal of some supporters of coursing to even admit that the hares involved suffer during the event.

    We've had arguments that the dogs enjoy it, so the hares should, and that because they get chased in the wild anyway, it doesn't really make a difference, etc.


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    #664
    ScumLord
    Registered Users Posts: 28,789 ✭✭✭✭ScumLord


    Sparks wrote: »
    What you're looking at when you look at coursing is the same model of conservation that some African countries (like Zimbabwe and Tanzania) have adopted,
    The other thing you have to take into consideration is that those countries have room to let these animals roam they just need to stop poachers. We don't have anywhere for these animals to call their own, all land is owned by some one and they want the land to be productive which makes it useless for most other creatures.

    I've done the REPS organic farming course and the only concessions made to wildlife is allowing for a 1 metre verge around the field that won't be cut or plowed.

    Unless people actively conserve the animals they have no place in Ireland ecosystem.


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    #665
    smash
    Closed Accounts Posts: 34,809 ✭✭✭✭smash


    Sparks wrote: »
    The studies say it works. It might not be as entertaining to some as it is to others, but I'll take "it works" over that any day of the week and twice on sunday.

    While saying 'it works' might be true, but it's kind of a muddy argument because it's not like those involved really have that much interest in keeping the species alive beyond wanting to use it for coursing.


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    #666
    yubabill1
    Registered Users Posts: 1,301 ✭✭✭yubabill1


    smash wrote: »
    Because efforts were not made to preserve the area. Christ, give a decent argument will you.

    Maybe the argument has gone over your head:

    Someone has to have an interest in something to preserve it.

    Animal rights groups don't seem to be taking up the slack. What preservation are they involved in?


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    #667
    smash
    Closed Accounts Posts: 34,809 ✭✭✭✭smash


    yubabill1 wrote: »
    Maybe the argument has gone over your head:

    Someone has to have an interest in something to preserve it.

    Their interest is in keeping it alive, in order to kill it!


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    #668
    yubabill1
    Registered Users Posts: 1,301 ✭✭✭yubabill1


    smash wrote: »
    Their interest is in keeping it alive, in order to kill it!

    That kind of reductionist argument shows you have no understanding of ecology.

    Before you try to educate me on the subject, I read Science at 3rd level.


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    #669
    smash
    Closed Accounts Posts: 34,809 ✭✭✭✭smash


    yubabill1 wrote: »
    Before you try to educate me on the subject, I read Science at 3rd level.

    Well good for you :confused:


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    #670
    yubabill1
    Registered Users Posts: 1,301 ✭✭✭yubabill1


    smash wrote: »
    Well good for you :confused:

    Yes and many academics acknowledge the conservation work done by hunters. They also consult them widely when studying population dynamics.


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    #671
    Mickeroo
    Administrators, Computer Games Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 32,212 Admin ✭✭✭✭✭Mickeroo


    yubabill1 wrote: »

    UNTRUE.

    The Irish red grouse population crashed when the british left and stopped maintaining the grouse moors. The population is still on the floor almost 100 years later.

    Not much preservation going on there.

    Tbf there is conservation going on towards the red grouse. Their presence was a major factor on the founding of ballycroy national park in 1998 to name one example. Another is the boleybrack project which has been successful in encouraging an increased population.


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    #672
    Sparks
    Registered Users Posts: 40,038 ✭✭✭✭Sparks


    smash wrote: »
    While saying 'it works' might be true, but it's kind of a muddy argument because it's not like those involved really have that much interest in keeping the species alive beyond wanting to use it for coursing.

    I don't have any interest in cows beyond beef and milk (and perhaps leather). Nor do many other people - they make lousy pets, they're bad for the environment in the numbers we keep them in, and you can't pull a plough with them (oxen aren't cows).

    And yet, that commercial interest in beef and milk and leather is sufficient that they are kept in enormous numbers (somewhere around 1.5 billion or so). All because we want to eat them.

    I know it's not the most Walt Disney of ideas, but it does, most emphatically, work.


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    #673
    yubabill1
    Registered Users Posts: 1,301 ✭✭✭yubabill1


    Mickeroo wrote: »
    Tbf there is conservation going on towards the red grouse. Their presence was a major factor on the founding of ballycroy national park in 1998 to name one example. Another is the boleybrack project which has been successful in encouraging an increased population.

    The Boleybrack project was intitated by the local Glenfarne gun club.
    http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/weekend/2012/1103/1224326070136.html


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    #674
    Mickeroo
    Administrators, Computer Games Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 32,212 Admin ✭✭✭✭✭Mickeroo


    Sparks wrote: »

    I don't have any interest in cows beyond beef and milk (and perhaps leather). Nor do many other people - they make lousy pets, they're bad for the environment in the numbers we keep them in, and you can't pull a plough with them (oxen aren't cows).

    And yet, that commercial interest in beef and milk and leather is sufficient that they are kept in enormous numbers (somewhere around 1.5 billion or so). All because we want to eat them.

    I know it's not the most Walt Disney of ideas, but it does, most emphatically, work.

    Im not disagreeing with what you're getting at but that's a bad example since farm cows wouldn't exist without farming in the first place.

    The grouse project I mentioned above is a better example since bit was spearheaded by a gun club and grouse are wild animals.


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    #675
    Mickeroo
    Administrators, Computer Games Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 32,212 Admin ✭✭✭✭✭Mickeroo


    yubabill1 wrote: »

    The Boleybrack project was intitated by the local Glenfarne gun club.
    http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/weekend/2012/1103/1224326070136.html

    Yes I know.


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    #676
    wexfordman
    Closed Accounts Posts: 490 ✭✭wexfordman


    Zombienosh wrote: »
    People are getting caught up in details here, it boils down to some people find a hare being chased, abused and often killed entertaining.


    First off, define "often" please, and provide figures to show that hares are "often" killed according to your definition of "often"

    Zombienosh wrote: »
    Some people do not.

    Some people apply the same logic to horse racing and fishing! Both sports at times result in the animal being killed! Do we see the same calls for banning of these sports ?


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    #677
    GoldCobra
    Registered Users Posts: 122 ✭✭GoldCobra


    I love how some pro coursers are trying to imply its for the hares welfare. It's in the hares best interest if we keep coursing. hah.


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    #678
    Sparks
    Registered Users Posts: 40,038 ✭✭✭✭Sparks


    GoldCobra wrote: »
    I love how some pro coursers are trying to imply its for the hares welfare. It's in the hares best interest if we keep coursing. hah.

    I don't love how scientific peer-reviewed evidence is being discounted because of "gut feeling" as if 25 feet of intestine was a better way to make decisions than evidence.


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    #679
    wexfordman
    Closed Accounts Posts: 490 ✭✭wexfordman


    GoldCobra wrote: »
    I love how some pro coursers are trying to imply its for the hares welfare. It's in the hares best interest if we keep coursing. hah.


    Glad you approve!


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    #680
    Scuba_Scoper
    Closed Accounts Posts: 183 ✭✭Scuba_Scoper


    GoldCobra wrote: »
    I love how some pro coursers are trying to imply its for the hares welfare. It's in the hares best interest if we keep coursing. hah.

    I love how some pro animal rights people are trying to imply it is not in the hare species welfare. It's in the species best interest if we stop coursing. hah


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    #681
    GoldCobra
    Registered Users Posts: 122 ✭✭GoldCobra


    It's in their best interest if we leave them alone.


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    #682
    wexfordman
    Closed Accounts Posts: 490 ✭✭wexfordman


    smash wrote: »
    While saying 'it works' might be true, but it's kind of a muddy argument because it's not like those involved really have that much interest in keeping the species alive beyond wanting to use it for coursing.

    And what activities are you doing to maintain the hare population ?

    Whats your interest in keeping them alive, and how are you doing so ?


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    #683
    Scuba_Scoper
    Closed Accounts Posts: 183 ✭✭Scuba_Scoper


    GoldCobra wrote: »
    It's in their best interest if we leave them alone.

    says who? Have you read any of this thread?


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    #684
    Mickeroo
    Administrators, Computer Games Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 32,212 Admin ✭✭✭✭✭Mickeroo


    GoldCobra wrote: »
    I love how some pro coursers are trying to imply its for the hares welfare. It's in the hares best interest if we keep coursing. hah.

    They're not saying the activity itself is for the hare's welfare, they're saying benefits to hare conservation are a by product of the activity taking place because they need to maintain a healthy hare population in order to practice it.


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    #685
    GoldCobra
    Registered Users Posts: 122 ✭✭GoldCobra


    Forgetting about numbers for a minute, Are you saying coursing is morally and ethically right?


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    #686
    fourleafclover
    Site Banned Posts: 45 ✭fourleafclover


    GoldCobra wrote: »
    Forgetting about numbers for a minute, Are you saying coursing is morally and ethically right?


    Will you go back to page one, this has been answered and debated already.


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    #687
    Mickeroo
    Administrators, Computer Games Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 32,212 Admin ✭✭✭✭✭Mickeroo


    GoldCobra wrote: »
    Forgetting about numbers for a minute, Are you saying coursing is morally and ethically right?

    Personally, no.


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    #688
    osarusan
    Registered Users Posts: 16,588 ✭✭✭✭osarusan


    fourleafclover wrote: »
    Will you go back to page one, this has been answered and debated already.

    What was the answer?


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    #689
    Dyr
    Registered Users Posts: 23,246 ✭✭✭✭Dyr


    Sparks wrote: »
    Who would make them?
    It costs money for farmers to set aside land for the hare,

    Maybe we should introduce farmer coursing, would benefit the irish countryside no end that. :)


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    #690
    Sparks
    Registered Users Posts: 40,038 ✭✭✭✭Sparks


    GoldCobra wrote: »
    It's in their best interest if we leave them alone.

    Actually, that's not necessarily so. If we left them alone, they'd survive or not against their predators with no assistance. With coursing, they have assistance.

    And more to the point, when you say "leave them alone" what you actually mean is "abandon modern farming practices" which are what keeps you and I fed. "Leaving them alone" isn't really an available option.


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    #691
    ScumLord
    Registered Users Posts: 28,789 ✭✭✭✭ScumLord


    GoldCobra wrote: »
    I love how some pro coursers are trying to imply its for the hares welfare.
    I love how trying to debate the issue rather than just assuming the worst makes you a coursing supporter. As someone from the countryside I know it's never as simple or straight forward as just stopping. Everything humans do in the natural world has knock on effects, on a small island like this with no wild areas most animals are completely dependant on what humans do.


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