Hare Coursing

paddy the man

fourleafclover wrote: »

Telling me you know people who go coursing is not an answer.

Regarding your farm, I do not get your point. Perhaps you should take it up with Quercus regarding their study of the irish hare that for some reason they did not check the hare stock on paddys farm, their report must be wrong!! Then again we only have your word (which holds little water judging by your responses) that hares are populant on your farm.

I stand over my posts, perhaps you should read them properly, they do make sense, whereas you seem to be suffering from "groundhog day"! By the way that is a makey uppy diagnosis too paddy ;-)

Answer the questions! They ain't difficult

Is Shipping fever a made up diseaseas well?
Are the conditions on my farm helpful to Hares?
Your made such a retarded point comparing transport of children to transport of wild Hares.You commented that children don't get Capture Myopathy in cars so Hares shouldn't either. Do you admit it was a foolish comparison?
Other questions.....
What are your views on the introduction of non-native Brown Hares into this Country for Coursing?

paddy the man

Sparks wrote: »

They wouldn't. The numbers show that if they introduced the brown hare, the coursing would have a mortality rate somewhere between under 1% and 4.1%; while natural predation causes a mortality rate that's almost 80% for leverets and over 50% for adults. If they did introduce it, it'd have a better chance being coursed than not; which isn't intuitive, but is backed by the facts.

Were in your opinion the introductions of Brown Hares a good thing?

Sparks

paddy the man wrote: »

Were in your opinion the introductions of Brown Hares a good thing?

I didn't know they had been introduced; so far as I know, the only significant population of brown hares on the island is in Northern Ireland (source being the Irish Hare Survey).

Paddy, I'm still trying to find your data on capture myopathy, but I must be looking past it; where is it?

paddy the man

Sparks wrote: »

I didn't know they had been introduced; so far as I know, the only significant population of brown hares on the island is in Northern Ireland (source being the Irish Hare Survey).

What is your opinion on the introductions of Brown Hare for Coursing into Ireland/N Ireland?

fourleafclover

paddy the man wrote: »

Answer the questions! They ain't difficult

I have answered your questions, as have others and furthermore I stand over my posts. However i'm not the only one now looking for you to answer statements that you have posted. You are only letting yourself down paddy by ignoring the hole you dug regarding capture myopathy, deflection is a pretty basic debating technique you know!

paddy the man

fourleafclover wrote: »

I have answered your questions, as have others and furthermore I stand over my posts. However i'm not the only one now looking for you to answer statements that you have posted. You are only letting yourself down paddy by ignoring the hole you dug regarding capture myopathy, deflection is a pretty basic debating technique you know!

You haven't answered any of my questions.
Answer this question.........

Your made such a retarded point comparing transport of children to transport of wild Hares.You commented that children don't get Capture Myopathy in cars so Hares shouldn't either. Do you admit it was a foolish comparison?

wexfordman

paddy the man wrote: »

You haven't answered any of my questions.
Answer this question.........

I think sparks and fourleaf asked way before this, your deflecting......

fourleafclover

paddy the man wrote: »

You haven't answered any of my questions.
Answer this question.........

I will give you a great opportunity so paddy, I will admit to being foolish if you can produce even a modicum of fact or detail regarding capture myopathy and the irish hare or where the ICC accept capture myopathy as a diagnosis?

Now that sounds more than fair to me don't you think!

osarusan

Capture myopathy (CM) is a syndrome that occurs in wild (free-ranging and captive) mammals and birds. In nature, CM is probably an inherent mechanism that hastens the death of an animal following capture by a predator, thereby reducing pain in the prey and conserving energy for the predator-a mechanism which is, in a way, beneficial to both. This condition is occasionally observed in domestic animals and humans. CM has been recognized for the last 30 to 35 years.

Murray Fowler, University of California.

http://www.nmfs.noaa.gov/pr/interactions/injury/pdfs/day2_spraker_artiodactylids.pdf

I think we can put to bed the argument that the diagnosis itself is not well recognised.

Benny Cake

Paddy, your constant use of the phrase; "retarded" is quite offensive and is most certainly not helping your argument...

In any case, I, like others, await with baited breath the link/proof that the ICC accept capture myopathy. As for your fictional "ICC Vet" I suspect you may be telling porkie pies on that one.....

smash

Sparks wrote: »

The numbers show that if they introduced the brown hare, the coursing would have a mortality rate somewhere between under 1% and 4.1%; while natural predation causes a mortality rate that's almost 80% for leverets and over 50% for adults.

I don't know what the point is here. It's still introducing an animal for blood spot purposes.

Zombienosh

People are getting caught up in details here, it boils down to some people find a hare being chased, abused and often killed entertaining. Some people do not.
We can spout all about hare numbers, muzzles and details to try and justify this, but at the end of the day you enjoy watching cruel treatment of animals for entertainment.

fourleafclover

Zombienosh wrote: »

People are getting caught up in details here, it boils down to some people find a hare being chased, abused and often killed entertaining. Some people do not.
We can spout all about hare numbers, muzzles and details to try and justify this, but at the end of the day you enjoy watching cruel treatment of animals for entertainment.

Abused and often killed are phrases that describe ignorance to the sport and suggest a very poor understanding of what actually takes place.

Details are there for a reason and hard facts and figures can not be ignored or disputed, plenty of these facts and figures have been supplied in the threads if you care to read them.
They point out that your statement is wide of the mark!!

Your statement highlights personal opinion but not the truth.

smash

fourleafclover wrote: »

Abused and often killed are phrases that describe ignorance to the sport and suggest a very poor understanding of what actually takes place.

Sport... what a phrase to associate it with. Disregarding deaths that occur, it's still the terrorism of an animal for no reason.

Sparks

paddy the man wrote: »

What is your opinion on the introductions of Brown Hare for Coursing into Ireland/N Ireland?

I don't really have any. I know they were worried about the population levels of the Brown Hare at one point, and coursing's a proven benefit to the hare population, so I'd consider it a good idea if the Brown Hare is wanted in the ecosystem; but since the Irish Hare would have to compete with it, that might not be the desired outcome.

fourleafclover

smash wrote: »

Sport... what a phrase to associate it with. Disregarding deaths that occur, it's still the terrorism of an animal for no reason.

Less fatalaties occur in coursing than do in the wild, facts and figures back it up.

Sparks

Zombienosh wrote: »

People are getting caught up in details here, it boils down to some people find a hare being chased, abused and often killed entertaining. Some people do not.

To me it boils down to the survival of the Irish Hare species in a world where we don't have the money or manpower for the state to ensure its survival, but you might be focussed on something else...

smash

fourleafclover wrote: »

Less fatalaties occur in coursing than do in the wild, facts and figures back it up.

Less fatalaties occur in tiger hunting than do in the wild. Still no reason to go and hunt one though!

fourleafclover

smash wrote: »

Less fatalaties occur in tiger hunting than do in the wild. Still no reason to go and hunt one though!

Coursing does not seek to kill any animal though, so tiger hunting has nothing to do with coursing and is no comparison. Essentially - No coursing = No irish hare!!

ejmaztec

fourleafclover wrote: »

Less fatalaties occur in coursing than do in the wild, facts and figures back it up.

That's a nonsense comparison because coursing isn't on-going all over the country for most of the year.

Mickeroo

Sparks wrote: »

They wouldn't. The numbers show that if they introduced the brown hare, the coursing would have a mortality rate somewhere between under 1% and 4.1%; while natural predation causes a mortality rate that's almost 80% for leverets and over 50% for adults. If they did introduce it, it'd have a better chance being coursed than not; which isn't intuitive, but is backed by the facts.

I'd imagine the risk of interbreeding with the Irish hare would be quite high? While coursing is still legal I would rather they use the Irish hare than encouraging the propogation of another non native species here. At least there's an incentive to maintain the Irish hare population that way.

smash

fourleafclover wrote: »

Coursing does not seek to kill any animal though, so tiger hunting has nothing to do with coursing and is no comparison. Essentially - No coursing = No irish hare!!

It boils down the the fact that it's a 'sport' that terrorises and sometimes kills the animal involved. And it's for no gain to anyone. It's a pretty sick way to spend your time in my opinion.

Sparks

osarusan wrote: »

Murray Fowler, University of California.
http://www.nmfs.noaa.gov/pr/interactions/injury/pdfs/day2_spraker_artiodactylids.pdf
I think we can put to bed the argument that the diagnosis itself is not well recognised.

Agreed, it actually lists clinical symptoms and signs. That's a much better reference than Rendle - it also gives a long list of means to prevent and treat the condition, while Rendle says it's utterly untreatable. Goes to show the value of good research - Rendle throws up any old guff and most people reading it don't even think he's describing a real condition; Fowler shows clinical signs and symptoms, ways to alleviate and prevent the condition and even to treat it when it arises. Fowler's research would actually help the hare; Rendle's not so much.

Sparks

Mickeroo wrote: »

I'd imagine the risk of interbreeding with the Irish hare would be quite high? While coursing is still legal I would rather they use the Irish hare than encouraging the propogation of another non native species here. At least there's an incentive to maintain the Irish hare population that way.

Hence my post...

Sparks

smash wrote: »

IAnd it's for no gain to anyone.

...except the hare species itself, which sees enormous benefits (ten to over a hundred times the population density in areas with coursing versus areas without, combined with a "poor" conservation status indicating that preservation efforts need to be made, at a time when there's no money or manpower for the state to do the job).

smash

Sparks wrote: »

...except the hare species itself, which sees enormous benefits (ten to over a hundred times the population density in areas with coursing versus areas without, combined with a "poor" conservation status indicating that preservation efforts need to be made, at a time when there's no money or manpower for the state to do the job).

Preservation efforts can be made without the need for coursing. That's not exactly a good argument for it.

yubabill1

smash wrote: »

Preservation efforts can be made without the need for coursing. That's not exactly a good argument for it.

UNTRUE.

The Irish red grouse population crashed when the british left and stopped maintaining the grouse moors. The population is still on the floor almost 100 years later.

Not much preservation going on there.

smash

yubabill1 wrote: »

UNTRUE.

The Irish red grouse population crashed when the british left and stopped maintaining the grouse moors. The population is still on the floor almost 100 years later.

Not much preservation going on there.

Because efforts were not made to preserve the area. Christ, give a decent argument will you.

Sparks

smash wrote: »

Preservation efforts can be made without the need for coursing. That's not exactly a good argument for it.

Who would make them?
It costs money for farmers to set aside land for the hare, cull the hare's predators, have a vet treat the hares, and so on. The state certainly hasn't got the money to compensate them for that. The NWPS certainly hasn't got the manpower to do it for them (hell, they have one ranger to look after all of Cork and Kerry last time I looked). The animal rights extremist groups don't have the manpower or the money either - well, ICABS might manage the money for a year, because they had a large donation last year as a bequest, but their normal cash flow wouldn't allow this to be done for more than a year.

What you're looking at when you look at coursing is the same model of conservation that some African countries (like Zimbabwe and Tanzania) have adopted, where they allow tightly regulated hunting of elephants with all the proceeds being used properly - the meat feeding local villagers, the money paying for anti-poaching patrols and the upkeep of the other animals (and the actual culling keeps the herd numbers to a sustainable level - the ivory trade has driven large numbers of elephants into areas that can't support that high a population). It's a model that has enjoyed considerable success. We're seeing it being used on a much smaller animal here, but the model is the same - make it commercially worthwhile to maintain a species at a healthy level in order to counteract a strong commercial motive for a practice that directly threatens the species. In Africa, it's the ivory trade; here it's modern agricultural practices.

You might not like it, and I can't blame you for that, but it works - so you have to ask yourself if you think your discomfort with an idea is sufficient to abandon a working system that's preventing the extinction of an entire species when you have no other system to adopt in its place?

smash

Sparks wrote: »

It costs money for farmers to set aside land for the hare, cull the hare's predators, have a vet treat the hares, and so on.

Do the people involved in coursing do this at the moment?

I understand the some species are kept alive on the planet for the purpose of blood sport, such as the Spanish Fighting Bull. But seriously, hare coursing is not a national tradition. Hell, it's not even entertaining.