Photo ID Card?

01-03-2013 2:22pm #1

I'm usually stumped when I'm asked for photo ID. Invariably this means my Passport which for obvious reasons I don't carry everywhere with me. I don't know how to drive so no license. Is there any accredited photo ID card in Ireland? I'm a UL graduate and regret not holding onto my student card! The only thing I can find is the "Garda Age Card" but it specifically states it's only to be used when buying the demon drink.

Victor · 01-03-2013 4:09pm

This is free, but doesn't carry your age (age may be included in digital format).

http://www.welfare.ie/en/Pages/Public-Services-Card_holder.aspx

http://www.citizensinformation.ie/en/social_welfare/irish_social_welfare_system/public_services_card.html

Gumbo · 02-03-2013 12:48am

Apply for the new drivers permit. It's a credit card euro style licence.

02-03-2013 1:17am

@Victor: Seems to be by invitation only!

@kceire: €35!!!!!!

murphaph · 02-03-2013 4:51pm

I wish Ireland had the same rules as most every other EU state wrt ID and registering one's abode.

Only us and the Brits seem happy that with no national ID card and no way of proving your identity and address in a convenient manner.

lockon... · 02-03-2013 5:16pm

murphaph wrote: »

I wish Ireland had the same rules as most every other EU state wrt ID and registering one's abode.

Only us and the Brits seem happy that with no national ID card and no way of proving your identity and address in a convenient manner.

I'd rather not live in a "papers please" country and would reject strongly the introduction of a national ID.

Dr. Kenneth Noisewater · 02-03-2013 5:24pm

Deleted User wrote: »

@Victor: Seems to be by invitation only

Technically yes, but if youre in receipt of a SW payment you can get one no hassle. Depending on your local office's numbers (they have to meet a 100 card quota each week) they might do one for you.

02-03-2013 5:52pm

Ahh I didn't know that. Will be straight on to those friendly folks in Dominic Street on Monday then. Just hope they've started answering the phones again.

Peanut2011 · 02-03-2013 5:57pm

lockon... wrote: »

I'd rather not live in a "papers please" country and would reject strongly the introduction of a national ID.

Don't mean to derail the topic but why would you find a problem with the national ID card?

Wouldn't that be an answer for many things and also reduce the time and problems that the OP and others experience. Sure when you go to the bank they want ID as well.

lucernarian · 02-03-2013 9:10pm

Maybe a national ID card can be provided for that will carry out some of the functions mentioned, while still not making card carriage in public compulsory? An optional ID card for convenience in these matters that can serve as an age card and as ID for banking and such purposes. The age card is not always accepted as a form of photo ID in situations I've encountered. Though there's nothing stopping any Irish adult from applying for one... (except the cost of €12 IIRC)

Prodigious · 02-03-2013 9:12pm

Garda Age card is a tenner. Agecard.ie

Morf · 03-03-2013 12:17am

To_be_confirmed wrote: »

Maybe a national ID card can be provided for that will carry out some of the functions mentioned, while still not making card carriage in public compulsory? An optional ID card for convenience in these matters that can serve as an age card and as ID for banking and such purposes. The age card is not always accepted as a form of photo ID in situations I've encountered. Though there's nothing stopping any Irish adult from applying for one... (except the cost of €12 IIRC)

Absolutely this. An optional National ID card that could be used instead of a Passport within the EU (as is the case in other countries) would be a great idea.

murphaph · 03-03-2013 12:48pm

lockon... wrote: »

I'd rather not live in a "papers please" country and would reject strongly the introduction of a national ID.

Even if a debtor who owed you money was prevented from disappearing into the ether as so often happens in Ireland?

Do you think Ireland has been a "free" place to live over the past 40 years compared to nasty "papers please" countries like Germany? Are German women forced to go to Ireland for abortions? Were Germans flocking to Ireland for divorces until Germany recently introduced it for themselves?

In reality, you will never be asked for your "papers please" in Germany unless you want access to a service were you need to provide proof of identity and abode (like opening a bank account, or collecting a parcel that went to the post office because you weren't at home).

You will not be stopped at random by some Gestapo officer with a monocle and asked to prove your identity at random, before being dragged off to some cellar and beaten with a telephone directory.

I think people who would "reject strongly the idea of a national ID card" don't really know why.

Alun · 03-03-2013 3:40pm

I agree. If you'd actually lived in a country (or countries) for any length of time where national ID cards are the norm, like I have, you'd wonder what all the fuss is about.

murphaph · 03-03-2013 8:02pm

Alun wrote: »

I agree. If you'd actually lived in a country (or countries) for any length of time where national ID cards are the norm, like I have, you'd wonder what all the fuss is about.

...and coming from a country that doesn't issue these cards means you need your (expensive) passport for many silly bits of mundane business that the locals can conduct with the credit card sized document they always have with them anyway.

As you say Alun, much ado about nothing. If the UK had national ID cards we'd have them a fortnight later I bet.

In Germany these is an "Ausweißpflicht". That means that the police can detain you until they satisfy themselves as to your identity. It doesn't mean that you need to carry a national ID card and you can't be charged for not having it on you, but this is the most practical way of course. Law abiding citizens will probably never be stopped and detained in this way in their entire lives.

bk · 04-03-2013 10:10am

I think we are in a serious need of a national ID card that contains your name, date of birth and address.

A big problem that I'm finding is that most banks require a esb/gas/phone bill to prove your address when opening an account, but now most of these are coming as paperless bills these days, but the banks wont accept a print out of these!!

Catch-22

A national ID card would fix this issue.

You can make the carrying of this card completely optional, thus eliminating any privacy concerns.

I have always said that one way of doing this, is to allow people to opt in to getting a national ID card along with their passport for a small additional fee. I know I would jump at that, in order to avoid carrying my passport when travelling in EU. I'm always jealous of my Polish girlfriend who just has to bring the small convenient national ID card when travelling, rather then the big, stupid, easy to lose passport.

It is a pity that the new style driving license can't be used for this purpose either.

Alun · 04-03-2013 10:22am

murphaph wrote: »

In Germany these is an "Ausweißpflicht". That means that the police can detain you until they satisfy themselves as to your identity. It doesn't mean that you need to carry a national ID card and you can't be charged for not having it on you, but this is the most practical way of course. Law abiding citizens will probably never be stopped and detained in this way in their entire lives.

It's the same in the Netherlands, called the "legitimatieplicht" which just means you have to be able to formally identify yourself using one of passport, ID card or driving licence.

Alun · 04-03-2013 10:23am

bk wrote: »

A big problem that I'm finding is that most banks require a esb/gas/phone bill to prove your address when opening an account, but now most of these are coming as paperless bills these days, but the banks wont accept a print out of these!!

Catch-22

It's even worse when you've just arrived in the country .. a real Catch-22 then.

KCAccidental · 05-03-2013 2:15am

Morf wrote: »

Absolutely this. An optional National ID card that could be used instead of a Passport within the EU (as is the case in other countries) would be a great idea.

I'm not sure we would be able to do that without joining Schengen and that ain't gonna happen anytime soon

Del2005 · 05-03-2013 12:31pm

murphaph wrote: »

...and coming from a country that doesn't issue these cards means you need your (expensive) passport for many silly bits of mundane business that the locals can conduct with the credit card sized document they always have with them anyway.

As you say Alun, much ado about nothing. If the UK had national ID cards we'd have them a fortnight later I bet.

We can't have ID cards due to the Common Travel Area, which would mean both the UK and Ireland need to introduce them at same time. So the UK's anti Europe bias is stopping us getting them. Just from reading the link I've posted since the Common Travel area has formal or legislative standing why can't we alter it?

murphaph wrote: »

In Germany these is an "Ausweißpflicht". That means that the police can detain you until they satisfy themselves as to your identity. It doesn't mean that you need to carry a national ID card and you can't be charged for not having it on you, but this is the most practical way of course. Law abiding citizens will probably never be stopped and detained in this way in their entire lives.

Alun wrote: »

It's the same in the Netherlands, called the "legitimatieplicht" which just means you have to be able to formally identify yourself using one of passport, ID card or driving licence.

We have the same law here. If the Gardaí, or PSNI/UK Police, stop you they can arrest you till you prove your identity. I always chuckle when watching the UK police shows with the amount of dodgy drivers who don't carry ID and get arrested, or produce a ATM card at the last second. An ATM card should not be accepted as ID.

antoobrien · 05-03-2013 2:05pm

bk wrote: »

I think we are in a serious need of a national ID card that contains your name, date of birth and address.

While I don't mind the idea of having an ID card, is the requirement for the address a bit OTT?

I'm just thinking about it from my experience of renting, with all the changing addresses etc it'd be too easy for it to go out of date.

I'd say it'd be just an administrative nightmare unless the database could be used to allow one notify companies etc of changes of address to make modifying accounts easier.

Queue the civil liberties outcry of big brother.

bk · 05-03-2013 4:14pm

KCAccidental wrote: »

I'm not sure we would be able to do that without joining Schengen and that ain't gonna happen anytime soon

Del2005 wrote: »

We can't have ID cards due to the Common Travel Area, which would mean both the UK and Ireland need to introduce them at same time.

No, we wouldn't need to join Schengen and the Common Travel Area with the UK would have no effect on it.

You wouldn't need to join Schengen, the schengen countries would just have to agree to accept an Irish national ID card as being a valid form of EU travel document in order to enter their country, just like the Irish and UK passports currently are.

The Common Travel Area also wouldn't be an issue, yes it would mean that you couldn't make it mandatory to carry such a national id card in Ireland, as people from the UK don't have one, but no one is suggesting that.

I think people really don't understand Schengen Agreement or The Common Travel Area or even how national id cards actually work.

So let me make it clear, Ireland, UK, every other EU state and some non EU (e.g. Norway) are members of the European Economic Area.

EEA member states' citizens holding a national identity card can not only use it as an identity document within their home country, but also as a travel document to exercise the right of free movement in the EEA (yes including the UK and Ireland).

This is why my Polish girlfriend can use her Polish ID card to enter and leave Ireland, UK and Poland and never takes her passport with her. Even Ryanair are required to accept.

Ireland is thus also well within it's rights to also issue a national ID card and with such a card could enter and leave Ireland, UK and any EEA (and Switzerland) with this card.

Non membership of Schengen just means that we have border checks between Ireland and the rest of the schengen members and we have to show either or passport or national ID card (e.g. my Polish girlfriends ID card) when enter and leaving the schengen area. So no change at all required, no need to join Schengen.

The Common Travel Area just means we can't force people from the UK to show their passport or ID card when entering Ireland. Having an ID card would have zero impact on this.

antoobrien wrote: »

While I don't mind the idea of having an ID card, is the requirement for the address a bit OTT?

I'm just thinking about it from my experience of renting, with all the changing addresses etc it'd be too easy for it to go out of date.

Well, it doesn't seem to be any issue in Germany or many other EU countries!!

How it works in Germany, is that the national ID cards are issued by your local town hall and include your address. When you move, you are supposed to go to the local town hall of your new address within 7 days and they then stamp the rear of the card with your new address.

Yes the address isn't needed for the purpose of being used as a travel document. However it is used for the purpose of identification and opening bank accounts, contracts, etc. that require a proof of address.

Capt'n Midnight · 12-03-2013 5:45pm

Morf wrote: »

Absolutely this. An optional National ID card that could be used instead of a Passport within the EU (as is the case in other countries) would be a great idea.

try getting Ryanair to accept it :pac:

Alun · 12-03-2013 5:52pm

Capt'n Midnight wrote: »

try getting Ryanair to accept it :pac:

They already accept national ID cards issued by other EC countries, an official Irish one shouldn't be any different ...

The following are the only accepted forms of photo ID
A valid passport - ( see below - */and ** below)

A valid National Identity Card issued by the government of a European Economic Area (EEA) country. (Only the following EEA countries issue National Identity Cards acceptable for carriage on Ryanair flights: Austria, Belgium, Bulgaria, Finland, France, Germany, Gibraltar, Greece, Cyprus, Czech Republic, Estonia, Hungary, Italy, Liechtenstein, Lithuania, Luxembourg, Netherlands, Malta, Poland, Portugal, Romania, Slovakia, Slovenia, Spain, Sweden, Switzerland, UK)

<snip other forms of acceptable ID>

murphaph · 13-03-2013 1:18am

Hmmmm, I wonder what that UK national ID card is that Ryanair accept.

Victor · 13-03-2013 2:23am

murphaph wrote: »

Hmmmm, I wonder what that UK national ID card is that Ryanair accept.

I think the new drivers licence is deemed sufficiently secure.

Gatling · 13-03-2013 2:30am

Will the new social welfare photo id cards count as a identity card other than for services attached to welfare

Victor · 13-03-2013 2:41am

It is a public services card, so it can be used for a variety of purposes.

It is designed to be used as a free travel pass, where users will have to tag-on like with a Leap Card. They don't seem to have made a decision on it though.

It won't replace certain documents like driving licence or passport.

bk · 14-03-2013 11:38am

murphaph wrote: »

Hmmmm, I wonder what that UK national ID card is that Ryanair accept.

The UK launched a national ID card, about 15,000 were issued before the new government stopped the scheme and stopped issuing them. However those 15000 cards remain valid.

Which just goes to show that there is absolutely nothing stopping the Irish government from launching their own, preferably voluntary, card. And Ryanair, all other airllines and all EEA countries including the UK would be required to accept it as, per the EEA rules.

oppenheimer1 · 16-03-2013 1:32am

murphaph wrote: »

Even if a debtor who owed you money was prevented from disappearing into the ether as so often happens in Ireland?

Do you think Ireland has been a "free" place to live over the past 40 years compared to nasty "papers please" countries like Germany? Are German women forced to go to Ireland for abortions? Were Germans flocking to Ireland for divorces until Germany recently introduced it for themselves?

In reality, you will never be asked for your "papers please" in Germany unless you want access to a service were you need to provide proof of identity and abode (like opening a bank account, or collecting a parcel that went to the post office because you weren't at home).

You will not be stopped at random by some Gestapo officer with a monocle and asked to prove your identity at random, before being dragged off to some cellar and beaten with a telephone directory.

I think people who would "reject strongly the idea of a national ID card" don't really know why.

You might have a different opinion if you lived in les banlieue of Paris though.

murphaph · 16-03-2013 3:34pm

oppenheimer1 wrote: »

You might have a different opinion if you lived in les banlieue of Paris though.

Explain please.

Kreator1984 · 18-03-2013 6:26pm

What would You say for a polish style national ID card :

Obverse :

Reverse :

Every Polish citizen over 18 who is resident in Poland must have an Identity Card (Dowód osobisty) issued by the local administration. Polish citizens living permanently abroad are entitled to have a card but it is not compulsory for them to have one. Identity Cards are issued for the period of 10 years (5 years if owner is under 18 at the date of issuing).
On the front there is a photo of the owner, given name, surname, date of birth, parents' names, sex and owner's signature. On the right side there is the coat of arms of the Republic of Poland, a security hologram, date of expiry and card number. On the back there is address, place of birth, height, eye colour, date of issue, issuing authority and personal number (PESEL - Powszechny Elektroniczny Spis Ewidencji Ludności - Universal Electronic Population Database) in the form of hologram. Below the PESEL is the card number and the data in machine-readable form.

It`s very handy, credit card size and very resistant. I`d like to have one from Ireland.

bk · 19-03-2013 4:03pm

Yes it is a very useful card, most European countries have something similar and they can all be used instead of a passport within Europe.

I would be very much in favour of such a card here, as long as it wasn't mandatory to carry it and show it to a Garda.

Peanut2011 · 19-03-2013 4:17pm

bk wrote: »

I would be very much in favour of such a card here, as long as it wasn't mandatory to carry it and show it to a Garda.

Why not?? Sorry but don't get this.

Kreator1984 · 19-03-2013 4:32pm

bk wrote: »

Yes it is a very useful card, most European countries have something similar and they can all be used instead of a passport within Europe.

I would be very much in favour of such a card here, as long as it wasn't mandatory to carry it and show it to a Garda.

Exactly, bk, You can use it instead of a passport within EU - having it with You all the time it`s more making life easier than fulfilment of obligation. I always carry it with me and I have to confirm that it helped me several times. As a foreigner but European I can say something regarding Garda, they ask for an ID hardly ever compering Polish police - believe me.

Victor · 19-03-2013 10:44pm

Peanut2011 wrote: »

Why not?? Sorry but don't get this.

Potentially, police then go around 'doing' people for not having ID, as opposed to a substantive crime.

Peanut2011 · 20-03-2013 12:18pm

Victor wrote: »

Potentially, police then go around 'doing' people for not having ID, as opposed to a substantive crime.

"Potentially", however I am yet to hear of anyone who is done for not carrying their driving license and that is mandatory for quite some time.

I still see more of a benefit to a law abiding citizen for these to be enforced.

Del2005 · 21-03-2013 3:43am

Victor wrote: »

Potentially, police then go around 'doing' people for not having ID, as opposed to a substantive crime.

They can arrest you today to confirm your ID , with no legal requirement to carry ID.

By not carrying ID and getting arrested you would be the one who causes the Gardaí to not be able to respond to a substantive crime. But if it became legal to carry ID, all crimes are substantive.

bk · 21-03-2013 4:25pm

In addition to what Del2005 said above, another issue would be that the Gardai could just randomly stop anyone, for instance everyone going to a protest, ask for their ID and register it.

This would have a very negative effect on a persons right to privacy.

Of course under the current law, a Garda has the right to stop you, ask you for your details and if he isn't satisfied, bring you to a police station. This all currently takes so much time that a Garda would only bother to do it if he/she had suspicion of a serious crime had been committed.

If ID's were mandatory, it would become far to easy for the Gardai to carry out frequent, random checks on large amounts of people.

Morf · 22-03-2013 12:53am

I don't think anyone in favour of it particularly wanted it to be mandatory rather than voluntary for it's positive elements.

ScottSF · 27-06-2013 4:53pm

Insightful thread and debate about photo ids! The one question I didn't see answers definitively is:

Are residents/citizens of Ireland legally required to carry a valid Photo ID at all times?

Based on the discussion points above it seems the answer is no but I am curious if that is accurate or not. Of course it helps to carry some sort of photo ID for when the need arises like at the bank.

Victor · 27-06-2013 8:39pm

ScottSF wrote: »

Are residents/citizens of Ireland legally required to carry a valid Photo ID at all times?

A bit off-topic, but in general terms:

Irish citizens, and by extension EU citizens (who generally can't be treated less favourably than Irish citizens on most grounds), are not required to carry any ID.

I suspect non-EU citizens are obliged to carry ID, in particular, the visa (or other entitlement) attached to their passport which entitles them to be in Ireland.

In practical terms, having recognised ID (passport, EU drivers licence, EU national ID card, Garda age card) is useful for many services and practically obligatory for others.

Carawaystick · 29-06-2013 12:23am

Victor wrote: »

I suspect non-EU citizens are obliged to carry ID, in particular, the visa (or other entitlement) attached to their passport which entitles them to be in Ireland.

EU or EEA citizens?
Or even citizens of EU states, domiciled in parts of those states which aren't in the EU, like the parts of Spain in Africa, or parts of the ukgbni in Spain.

What about commonwealth citizens who can be in Derry without a visa and come to Donegal. I doubt some fat americains in plaid will get pulled up for not having id

Or even ( and I know the sea isn't balmy like the Med) non-eu citizens swimming

Victor · 29-06-2013 1:55pm

Carawaystick wrote: »

EU or EEA citizens?

I'm not sure. The state can't treat EU citizens less favourably than Irish citizens on certain grounds. I'm not sure if that extends to EEA citizens.

Or even citizens of EU states, domiciled in parts of those states which aren't in the EU, like the parts of Spain in Africa, or parts of the ukgbni in Spain.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special_member_state_territories_and_the_European_Union#Saimaa_Canal++-

What about commonwealth citizens who can be in Derry without a visa and come to Donegal.

They would need to prove whatever citizenship they have doesn't need a visa.

I doubt some fat americains in plaid will get pulled up for not having id

But how would a garda know for certain what citizenship they have? american citizne shave a right to visit for up to 90 days without needing a visa.

Or even ( and I know the sea isn't balmy like the Med) non-eu citizens swimming

Sam Russell · 30-06-2013 10:18pm

There was a case taken by a citizen of Ireland against the Gardai for his treatment. He was from, iirc, Asia. They demanded to see his immigration papers, which as a citizen he did not need or have. He looked 'foreign'

The judge hearing the case was not ammused by the treatment and demanded changes to the Gardai behaviour.

It highlighted the failures of the current system where immigrants need to carry a Gardai issued identity card but citizens do not. It was assumed that all citizens are 'Irish' and non-citizens are 'foreign'.

Off topic, All countries in the EU have numberplates that carry a small blue panel on the left that carries the EU flag and the designation of the country that issues the plate. That is except the UK, where it is voluntary. It is acceptable in the UK for cars to have flags of England , Scotland, Wales, or the EU or no flag at all. Use of other than EU is not recognised outside the UK, and all such cars should carry a white oval plate with GB on it. I wonder if that is ever enforced?

Carawaystick · 30-06-2013 11:25pm

Sam Russell wrote: »

Off topic, ... It is acceptable in the UK for cars to have flags of England , Scotland, Wales, or the EU or no flag at all. Use of other than EU is not recognised outside the UK, and all such cars should carry a white oval plate with GB on it. I wonder if that is ever enforced?

From reading fora
It is enforced against English cars more often than Scottish cars, for some reason...
I haven't seen any Norn Irish cars with an URL sticker complain, unsure how that complies with any laws... But that is a smaller sample space than English cars too ( like Scottish cars)

Back someway towards the topic, was talking about why dublin&cork airports didn't implement a domestic/cta arrivals area to avoid delays, seems standard at British airports whenever I've flown there

Sam Russell · 01-07-2013 9:17am

Carawaystick wrote: »

Back someway towards the topic, was talking about why dublin&cork airports didn't implement a domestic/cta arrivals area to avoid delays, seems standard at British airports whenever I've flown there

In Dublin, it would appear that you are 'required' to have a passport when arriving from a UK airport. This is not the case, but since both Aer Lingus and Ryanair require one, passengers show their passport since they have it with them. I have never tried saying to the Garda on duty that I do not require one. I am always rushing to get the Aircoach.

They should have a different stream for passengers arriving from CTA airports. It is particularly important to segregate customs streams for EU/EEA and Non-EU origins.

murphaph · 01-07-2013 12:23pm

Sam Russell wrote: »

In Dublin, it would appear that you are 'required' to have a passport when arriving from a UK airport. This is not the case, but since both Aer Lingus and Ryanair require one, passengers show their passport since they have it with them. I have never tried saying to the Garda on duty that I do not require one. I am always rushing to get the Aircoach.

They should have a different stream for passengers arriving from CTA airports. It is particularly important to segregate customs streams for EU/EEA and Non-EU origins.

I used to hold the stub of my boarding card when I used to travel to the UK (before a passport became compulsory by the airlines) and just say "coming from Britain" to the Guard and you'd be waved on. Not the most secure set up back then.

MadsL · 01-07-2013 5:15pm

murphaph wrote: »

You will not be stopped at random by some Gestapo officer with a monocle and asked to prove your identity at random, before being dragged off to some cellar and beaten with a telephone directory.

I lost a week's wages in the Czech republic in such a scenario, I did not have my passport on me. Arrested and detained - searched and then my belongs returned to me minus the money.

Kreator1984 wrote: »

What would You say for a polish style national ID card :

In the almost words of Fr Jack I would say "FECK OFF POLISH-STYLE NATIONAL ID CARD!!"

murphaph · 01-07-2013 10:24pm

MadsL wrote: »

I lost a week's wages in the Czech republic in such a scenario, I did not have my passport on me. Arrested and detained - searched and then my belongs returned to me minus the money.

Sounds like a problem with the Czech police being thieves rather than their ID card though?

L1011 · 08-07-2013 9:40pm

Sam Russell wrote: »

In Dublin, it would appear that you are 'required' to have a passport when arriving from a UK airport. This is not the case, but since both Aer Lingus and Ryanair require one, passengers show their passport since they have it with them.

Aer Lingus do not require a passport for travel from the UK. Neither do Flybe. Can't comment for certain on Cityjet or BA but I'm pretty sure they don't

http://www.aerlingus.com/i18n/en/htmlPopups/passport_visa_information.html

At the other airports I've flown to from the UK, namely Donegal (from Glasgow on Aer Arann, now Loganair for Flybe operated) and Waterford (from Birmingham, again Aer Arann and now Flybe operated) there was no immigration check of any description.

It is specifically a Ryanair quirk, presumably to save time (less different types of document to accept) and possibly money (having to return a refused passenger).

Photo ID Card?

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