Photo ID Card?

Kreator1984

What would You say for a polish style national ID card :

Obverse :


Reverse :

Every Polish citizen over 18 who is resident in Poland must have an Identity Card (Dowód osobisty) issued by the local administration. Polish citizens living permanently abroad are entitled to have a card but it is not compulsory for them to have one. Identity Cards are issued for the period of 10 years (5 years if owner is under 18 at the date of issuing).
On the front there is a photo of the owner, given name, surname, date of birth, parents' names, sex and owner's signature. On the right side there is the coat of arms of the Republic of Poland, a security hologram, date of expiry and card number. On the back there is address, place of birth, height, eye colour, date of issue, issuing authority and personal number (PESEL - Powszechny Elektroniczny Spis Ewidencji Ludności - Universal Electronic Population Database) in the form of hologram. Below the PESEL is the card number and the data in machine-readable form.

It`s very handy, credit card size and very resistant. I`d like to have one from Ireland.

bk

Yes it is a very useful card, most European countries have something similar and they can all be used instead of a passport within Europe.

I would be very much in favour of such a card here, as long as it wasn't mandatory to carry it and show it to a Garda.

Peanut2011

bk wrote: »

I would be very much in favour of such a card here, as long as it wasn't mandatory to carry it and show it to a Garda.

Why not?? Sorry but don't get this.

Kreator1984

bk wrote: »

Yes it is a very useful card, most European countries have something similar and they can all be used instead of a passport within Europe.

I would be very much in favour of such a card here, as long as it wasn't mandatory to carry it and show it to a Garda.

Exactly, bk, You can use it instead of a passport within EU - having it with You all the time it`s more making life easier than fulfilment of obligation. I always carry it with me and I have to confirm that it helped me several times. As a foreigner but European I can say something regarding Garda, they ask for an ID hardly ever compering Polish police - believe me.

Victor

Peanut2011 wrote: »

Why not?? Sorry but don't get this.

Potentially, police then go around 'doing' people for not having ID, as opposed to a substantive crime.

Peanut2011

Victor wrote: »

Potentially, police then go around 'doing' people for not having ID, as opposed to a substantive crime.

"Potentially", however I am yet to hear of anyone who is done for not carrying their driving license and that is mandatory for quite some time.

I still see more of a benefit to a law abiding citizen for these to be enforced.

Del2005

Victor wrote: »

Potentially, police then go around 'doing' people for not having ID, as opposed to a substantive crime.

They can arrest you today to confirm your ID , with no legal requirement to carry ID.

By not carrying ID and getting arrested you would be the one who causes the Gardaí to not be able to respond to a substantive crime. But if it became legal to carry ID, all crimes are substantive.

bk

In addition to what Del2005 said above, another issue would be that the Gardai could just randomly stop anyone, for instance everyone going to a protest, ask for their ID and register it.

This would have a very negative effect on a persons right to privacy.

Of course under the current law, a Garda has the right to stop you, ask you for your details and if he isn't satisfied, bring you to a police station. This all currently takes so much time that a Garda would only bother to do it if he/she had suspicion of a serious crime had been committed.

If ID's were mandatory, it would become far to easy for the Gardai to carry out frequent, random checks on large amounts of people.

Morf

I don't think anyone in favour of it particularly wanted it to be mandatory rather than voluntary for it's positive elements.

ScottSF

Insightful thread and debate about photo ids! The one question I didn't see answers definitively is:

Are residents/citizens of Ireland legally required to carry a valid Photo ID at all times?


Based on the discussion points above it seems the answer is no but I am curious if that is accurate or not. Of course it helps to carry some sort of photo ID for when the need arises like at the bank.

Victor

ScottSF wrote: »

Are residents/citizens of Ireland legally required to carry a valid Photo ID at all times?

A bit off-topic, but in general terms:

Irish citizens, and by extension EU citizens (who generally can't be treated less favourably than Irish citizens on most grounds), are not required to carry any ID.

I suspect non-EU citizens are obliged to carry ID, in particular, the visa (or other entitlement) attached to their passport which entitles them to be in Ireland.

In practical terms, having recognised ID (passport, EU drivers licence, EU national ID card, Garda age card) is useful for many services and practically obligatory for others.

Carawaystick

Victor wrote: »

I suspect non-EU citizens are obliged to carry ID, in particular, the visa (or other entitlement) attached to their passport which entitles them to be in Ireland.

EU or EEA citizens?
Or even citizens of EU states, domiciled in parts of those states which aren't in the EU, like the parts of Spain in Africa, or parts of the ukgbni in Spain.

What about commonwealth citizens who can be in Derry without a visa and come to Donegal. I doubt some fat americains in plaid will get pulled up for not having id

Or even ( and I know the sea isn't balmy like the Med) non-eu citizens swimming

Victor

Carawaystick wrote: »

EU or EEA citizens?

I'm not sure. The state can't treat EU citizens less favourably than Irish citizens on certain grounds. I'm not sure if that extends to EEA citizens.

Or even citizens of EU states, domiciled in parts of those states which aren't in the EU, like the parts of Spain in Africa, or parts of the ukgbni in Spain.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special_member_state_territories_and_the_European_Union#Saimaa_Canal++-

What about commonwealth citizens who can be in Derry without a visa and come to Donegal.

They would need to prove whatever citizenship they have doesn't need a visa.

I doubt some fat americains in plaid will get pulled up for not having id

But how would a garda know for certain what citizenship they have? american citizne shave a right to visit for up to 90 days without needing a visa.

Or even ( and I know the sea isn't balmy like the Med) non-eu citizens swimming

Sam Russell

There was a case taken by a citizen of Ireland against the Gardai for his treatment. He was from, iirc, Asia. They demanded to see his immigration papers, which as a citizen he did not need or have. He looked 'foreign'

The judge hearing the case was not ammused by the treatment and demanded changes to the Gardai behaviour.

It highlighted the failures of the current system where immigrants need to carry a Gardai issued identity card but citizens do not. It was assumed that all citizens are 'Irish' and non-citizens are 'foreign'.

Off topic, All countries in the EU have numberplates that carry a small blue panel on the left that carries the EU flag and the designation of the country that issues the plate. That is except the UK, where it is voluntary. It is acceptable in the UK for cars to have flags of England , Scotland, Wales, or the EU or no flag at all. Use of other than EU is not recognised outside the UK, and all such cars should carry a white oval plate with GB on it. I wonder if that is ever enforced?

Carawaystick

Sam Russell wrote: »

Off topic, ... It is acceptable in the UK for cars to have flags of England , Scotland, Wales, or the EU or no flag at all. Use of other than EU is not recognised outside the UK, and all such cars should carry a white oval plate with GB on it. I wonder if that is ever enforced?

From reading fora
It is enforced against English cars more often than Scottish cars, for some reason...
I haven't seen any Norn Irish cars with an URL sticker complain, unsure how that complies with any laws... But that is a smaller sample space than English cars too ( like Scottish cars)


Back someway towards the topic, was talking about why dublin&cork airports didn't implement a domestic/cta arrivals area to avoid delays, seems standard at British airports whenever I've flown there

Sam Russell

Carawaystick wrote: »

Back someway towards the topic, was talking about why dublin&cork airports didn't implement a domestic/cta arrivals area to avoid delays, seems standard at British airports whenever I've flown there

In Dublin, it would appear that you are 'required' to have a passport when arriving from a UK airport. This is not the case, but since both Aer Lingus and Ryanair require one, passengers show their passport since they have it with them. I have never tried saying to the Garda on duty that I do not require one. I am always rushing to get the Aircoach.

They should have a different stream for passengers arriving from CTA airports. It is particularly important to segregate customs streams for EU/EEA and Non-EU origins.

murphaph

Sam Russell wrote: »

In Dublin, it would appear that you are 'required' to have a passport when arriving from a UK airport. This is not the case, but since both Aer Lingus and Ryanair require one, passengers show their passport since they have it with them. I have never tried saying to the Garda on duty that I do not require one. I am always rushing to get the Aircoach.

They should have a different stream for passengers arriving from CTA airports. It is particularly important to segregate customs streams for EU/EEA and Non-EU origins.

I used to hold the stub of my boarding card when I used to travel to the UK (before a passport became compulsory by the airlines) and just say "coming from Britain" to the Guard and you'd be waved on. Not the most secure set up back then.

MadsL

murphaph wrote: »

You will not be stopped at random by some Gestapo officer with a monocle and asked to prove your identity at random, before being dragged off to some cellar and beaten with a telephone directory.

I lost a week's wages in the Czech republic in such a scenario, I did not have my passport on me. Arrested and detained - searched and then my belongs returned to me minus the money.

Kreator1984 wrote: »

What would You say for a polish style national ID card :

In the almost words of Fr Jack I would say "FECK OFF POLISH-STYLE NATIONAL ID CARD!!"

murphaph

MadsL wrote: »

I lost a week's wages in the Czech republic in such a scenario, I did not have my passport on me. Arrested and detained - searched and then my belongs returned to me minus the money.

Sounds like a problem with the Czech police being thieves rather than their ID card though?

L1011

Sam Russell wrote: »

In Dublin, it would appear that you are 'required' to have a passport when arriving from a UK airport. This is not the case, but since both Aer Lingus and Ryanair require one, passengers show their passport since they have it with them.

Aer Lingus do not require a passport for travel from the UK. Neither do Flybe. Can't comment for certain on Cityjet or BA but I'm pretty sure they don't

http://www.aerlingus.com/i18n/en/htmlPopups/passport_visa_information.html

At the other airports I've flown to from the UK, namely Donegal (from Glasgow on Aer Arann, now Loganair for Flybe operated) and Waterford (from Birmingham, again Aer Arann and now Flybe operated) there was no immigration check of any description.

It is specifically a Ryanair quirk, presumably to save time (less different types of document to accept) and possibly money (having to return a refused passenger).

Sam Russell

MYOB wrote: »

Aer Lingus do not require a passport for travel from the UK. Neither do Flybe. Can't comment for certain on Cityjet or BA but I'm pretty sure they don't

http://www.aerlingus.com/i18n/en/htmlPopups/passport_visa_information.html

At the other airports I've flown to from the UK, namely Donegal (from Glasgow on Aer Arann, now Loganair for Flybe operated) and Waterford (from Birmingham, again Aer Arann and now Flybe operated) there was no immigration check of any description.

It is specifically a Ryanair quirk, presumably to save time (less different types of document to accept) and possibly money (having to return a refused passenger).

As I said before, although a passport is not required for travel to Dublin from the UK, everyone is directed through immigration checks by AGS and I have never tried making any point about it as I do not want to be delayed. Whether Aer Lingus require it or not, everyone is still directed through passport control.

Flying the other way, Irish passengers are directed through Police/MI5 control (which is usually unmanned these days) and then a bypass route avoiding passport control (but you need your boarding card). In Dublin, you can queue up with passengers from anywhere. The Gardai have no idea where you have come from, and so look for passports.

Obviously at airports like Waterford, not many transatlantic flights come in., so passports are not really that important

L1011

Sam Russell wrote: »

As I said before, although a passport is not required for travel to Dublin from the UK, everyone is directed through immigration checks by AGS and I have never tried making any point about it as I do not want to be delayed. Whether Aer Lingus require it or not, everyone is still directed through passport control.

Flying the other way, Irish passengers are directed through Police/MI5 control (which is usually unmanned these days) and then a bypass route avoiding passport control (but you need your boarding card). In Dublin, you can queue up with passengers from anywhere. The Gardai have no idea where you have come from, and so look for passports.

Obviously at airports like Waterford, not many transatlantic flights come in., so passports are not really that important

That wasn't what I was countering...

ScottSF

As I said before, although a passport is not required for travel to Dublin from the UK, everyone is directed through immigration checks by AGS and I have never tried making any point about it as I do not want to be delayed. Whether Aer Lingus require it or not, everyone is still directed through passport control.

I'm not sure how this thread turned into one about passport rules for flying but interesting to follow. Yes if you fly from the UK to Dublin Airport, EVERYONE must go through passport control. Whether you are required to show a passport or some other form of ID, there is no way around it at Dublin airport specifically. And if you are not an EU citizen, you most certainly require a passport as they won't let you into the country without one. Also just because US citizens don't require a visa to visit up to 90 days doesn't mean they don't need to show an immigration stamp as dated proof of entry.

Funny enough when my wife and I flew back from Donegal to Dublin last year for a weekend break, we were required to show our passport along with all the other incoming passengers despite the fact that we never even left the country! Sigh...

antoobrien

MYOB wrote: »

It is specifically a Ryanair quirk, presumably to save time (less different types of document to accept) and possibly money (having to return a refused passenger).

Ryanair specify a list of documents that they will accept, driving licenses are not intended for international travel so they don't accept them.

I remember hearing that the airlines are liable to fines if a passenger is found to have improper documentation on entry (no idea if it's true), so given their legendary tightness I'd say it's a pragmatic choice so as to cut down the amount of BS they have to deal with.

Sam Russell

antoobrien wrote: »

Ryanair specify a list of documents that they will accept, driving licenses are not intended for international travel so they don't accept them.

I remember hearing that the airlines are liable to fines if a passenger is found to have improper documentation on entry (no idea of it's true), so given their legendary tightness I'd say it's a pragmatic choice so as to cut down the amount of BS they have to deal with.

Airlines have to pay for the repatriation of people refused entry, as far as I know, but not fined but I may be wrong.

Ryanair introduced the passport rule to stop a secondary market in their tickets. If anyone was to make money out of Ryanair tickets, it would be Ryanair. As a result, they introduced fees for transfer of tickets from one name to another which often exceeded the price of the ticket.

Since it worked so well, other airlines copied it.

The only official photo id in Ireland are the passport and the driving licence. Other documents have photos, but are not quite official, eg bus passes issued by CIE (I think only in Dublin), student cards, etc. Only passports are available to all.

ScottSF

The only official photo id in Ireland are the passport and the driving licence.

In the USA there is a "Non-Drivers License" available for people that do not drive but need an official photo ID. That would be a welcome addition to the drivers license here in Ireland. Has it ever been proposed? Of course many people, especially in Dublin, do not have a car and certainly do not want the hassle and risk of carrying a passport around just in case they need to show photo ID. But I guess this goes back to the debate about having a "National ID" card or not for which there are many pros and cons.

Sam Russell

ScottSF wrote: »

In the USA there is a "Non-Drivers License" available for people that do not drive but need an official photo ID. That would be a welcome addition to the drivers license here in Ireland. Has it ever been proposed? Of course many people, especially in Dublin, do not have a car and certainly do not want the hassle and risk of carrying a passport around just in case they need to show photo ID. But I guess this goes back to the debate about having a "National ID" card or not for which there are many pros and cons.

I think it would work the other way. The national ID card would double as a driving licence. It is unfortunate that the new credit card sized driving licence will be produced by a private contractor instead of the passport office. If it was the passport office, the checks on identity for the CC driving licence could be the same as for a passport and it could morph into a national ID when required.

bk

Sorry to bring up an old thread, but I think it is very relative.

The government is to introduce a new credit card sized passport card in early 2015:

http://www.irishtimes.com/news/consumer/new-passport-card-for-travel-in-eu-arriving-early-in-2015-1.2045735

This is fantastic news and is exactly what I was looking for as described earlier. A completely optional passport card that can be used in place of a full passport within the EU and potentially further afield.

It however unfortunately isn't a full on EU style national ID card. I don't think it will still your address, nor will it store an electronic signature which can be used to sign documents as the national ID cards in many EU countries can.

Sam Russell

I have a Public Service Card. Is this what they mean? It has my passport photo and signature (taken from my passport application), my name and PPS number with an expiry date of 2021. No address or date of birth. I do not know what is on the chip - if anything.

I could also have a few other 'official' cards, like a driving licence, a Drugs repayment card, an E111 card, a Social Welfare identity card, a medical card and a bus pass.

All of these are Government issued cards. Would it not make sense to condense these into fewer cards?

KCAccidental

tbf this passport card will acceptable for travel within Europe and more importantly accepted by airlines (Ryanair demanding passports has rendered the free travel area between UK and here pretty redundant to air travellers). Save you having to bring the book around