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Hare Coursing

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Comments

  • #542
    Artful_Badger
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,339 ✭✭✭Artful_Badger


    Hope its ok to link to the hunting forum, I assume it seeing as they linked to here. But Sparks seemed to get the point very early in that thread when the shoe was on the other foot. Then later as things swung here doing everything humanly possibly to avoid seeing it in a similar way in relation to an outcome that pushed his agenda.

    http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=83443600&postcount=13


  • #543
    Sparks
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 40,038 ✭✭✭✭Sparks


    Artful_Badger wrote: »
    Sparks seemed to get the point very early in that thread when the shoe was on the other foot. Then later as things swung here doing everything humanly possibly to avoid seeing it in a similar way in relation to an outcome that pushed his agenda.

    How in the heck do you get that conclusion from me saying:
    It would be nice to see a poll that actually had a high turnout rate from both sides and which gave better data than the usual polls which have a high selection bias


  • #544
    Artful_Badger
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,339 ✭✭✭Artful_Badger


    Sparks wrote: »
    How in the heck do you get that conclusion from me saying:

    The high selection bias wasnt an issue when the high numbers were the hunting crowd.

    "Like polling in Italy to ask if pasta is good". Except when the table was turned you changed your story to "So Italians shouldnt get a vote?".


  • #545
    Sparks
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 40,038 ✭✭✭✭Sparks


    Artful_Badger wrote: »
    The high selection bias wasnt an issue when the high numbers were the hunting crowd.
    You're missing the point that you had high selection bias because you didn't have both sides voting. In other words, before the hunting forum posters showed up.

    You're upset because when you poll more widely, you find that animal rights extremists number in the 40-60 range at best; whereas fieldsports enthusiasts number in the 300,000-400,000 range. You're not even getting the full impact of the differential in the poll here because you're just getting the fieldsports people that happen to post in here.

    If you had an actual national poll with a high turnout rate and where people made an informed vote, you just wouldn't see results support the banning of coursing; because even people who'd never go to an ICC meet can do the math that says that losing a few hares every year (which is less than you'd lose from natural predation rates if the predators weren't controlled by coursers) in return for keeping the species from going extinct is a good tradeoff.


  • #546
    Artful_Badger
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,339 ✭✭✭Artful_Badger


    Sparks wrote: »
    You're missing the point that you had high selection bias because you didn't have both sides voting. In other words, before the hunting forum posters showed up.

    Its amazing that you're so unwilling to see whats so plainly obvious. Hunting forum posters show up for the other side ? They were the only side, there was no pro ban lobby, just AH posters with mixed views. The hunting forum posters in this instance ARE the selection bias in this case because they were the only group involved with an agenda.
    You're upset because when you poll more widely, you find that animal rights extremists number in the 40-60 range at best; whereas fieldsports enthusiasts number in the 300,000-400,000 range. You're not even getting the full impact of the differential in the poll here because you're just getting the fieldsports people that happen to post in here.

    I'm not upset, I just dont take a poll seriously when its clear its been skwed by the lack of representation of the other side of the argument. Something you agreed with until it was your side that had the representation in the poll and not the "extremists".
    If you had an actual national poll with a high turnout rate and where people made an informed vote, you just wouldn't see results support the banning of coursing; because even people who'd never go to an ICC meet can do the math that says that losing a few hares every year (which is less than you'd lose from natural predation rates if the predators weren't controlled by coursers) in return for keeping the species from going extinct is a good tradeoff.

    A national poll would have both sides of the argument and a turn out from both ends of the spectrum. Your problem is that you see anyone who doesnt agree with you as an "anti" and "extremist" and all the same. They arent, and if there was a national poll I think you'd see a truer reflection of public opinion on the matter than what we have seen here. It wouldnt all be one sided because there wouldnt be just side organised to influence the poll.


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  • #547
    Sparks
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 40,038 ✭✭✭✭Sparks


    Artful_Badger wrote: »
    Its amazing that you're so unwilling to see whats so plainly obvious.
    How do you cope with that degree of irony without suffering ill-effects?
    there was no pro ban lobby
    ...on a thread that started off from an ICABS campaign?
    I call shenanigans.
    A national poll would have both sides of the argument and a turn out from both ends of the spectrum. Your problem is that you see anyone who doesnt agree with you as an "anti" and "extremist" and all the same.
    /headdesk
    No, I don't. I know the ISPCA doesn't agree with coursing and it doesn't stop me donating to them even when I think they're wrong on that point.
    Them, I could sit down with and discuss the matter, present evidence and have a reasoned argument with, without having to wonder if the next parcel to show up at my house isn't going to be an incendiary bomb. But when extremists like ICABS and the ALF and the others are involved, such a discussion can't ever happen, not just because they'll hijack it, but because it literally becomes a safety issue for anyone who disagrees with them in public. That is why there's such a polarised opinion on this in the hunting community.


  • #548
    Artful_Badger
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,339 ✭✭✭Artful_Badger


    Sparks wrote: »
    How do you cope with that degree of irony without suffering ill-effects?

    There is no irony in what I said, the irony is in you arguing that I'm just upset about the outcome of the poll when you call ones that dont suit you biased and ones that suit you people just having their say.
    ...on a thread that started off from an ICABS campaign?
    I call shenanigans.

    Where is it then ? I'm the most active poster in this thread and I'm certainly not associated with ICABS nor have I spoken about this anywhere outside this thread. If there was a pro ban lobby they didnt really do much lobbying as the majority of active posters are hunting forum members. The pro ban vote was as you lot in the hunting forum expected when that thread was started. You even stated as much in that thread in relation to the AH demographic. So unless AH itself is a pro ban lobby group, where is it ?
    /headdesk
    No, I don't. I know the ISPCA doesn't agree with coursing and it doesn't stop me donating to them even when I think they're wrong on that point.
    Them, I could sit down with and discuss the matter, present evidence and have a reasoned argument with, without having to wonder if the next parcel to show up at my house isn't going to be an incendiary bomb. But when extremists like ICABS and the ALF and the others are involved, such a discussion can't ever happen, not just because they'll hijack it, but because it literally becomes a safety issue for anyone who disagrees with them in public. That is why there's such a polarised opinion on this in the hunting community.

    /headdesk is good, some sense might accidentally get lodged in there.

    As I said if there are members of those groups here I havent seen them nor am I associated with them. I notice also you ignored the main point of my post, with your only reference to it "I call shenanigans". You made a criticism earlier about the simplicity of some arguments which you described as not unlike "nuh uh". Yet that is what you seem to be falling back upon. More irony is it ? Experiencing any ill effects yourself ?


  • #549
    Ruudi_Mentari
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,801 ✭✭✭Ruudi_Mentari


    Coursing, no thanks, in fact I might be hoping to thin out a bit up top... so quite the opposite.


  • #550
    rambojon
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 213 ✭✭rambojon


    Id respectfully suggest anybody to attend a meeting to judge it for themselves ... there are many very vocal people agaisnt this sport who have never attended a single meet and really havent much of an idea whats involved. im strongly in favour of a great country persons sport.


  • #551
    steddyeddy
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 27,565 ✭✭✭✭steddyeddy


    rambojon wrote: »
    Id respectfully suggest anybody to attend a meeting to judge it for themselves ... there are many very vocal people agaisnt this sport who have never attended a single meet and really havent much of an idea whats involved. im strongly in favour of a great country persons sport.

    In fairness would it not look strange if a person who has never attended one suddenly went to a meeting?


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  • #552
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 17,847 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    steddyeddy wrote: »
    In fairness would it not look strange if a person who has never attended one suddenly went to a meeting?
    No, why should it? I went to a few and decided that it's not for me. Facilities were a bit primitive for my liking, but others were having a great time!


  • #553
    Artful_Badger
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,339 ✭✭✭Artful_Badger


    rambojon wrote: »
    Id respectfully suggest anybody to attend a meeting to judge it for themselves ... there are many very vocal people agaisnt this sport who have never attended a single meet and really havent much of an idea whats involved. im strongly in favour of a great country persons sport.

    Why the hell would someone who disagrees with the sport on the grounds of animal welfare want to go and support an event ??

    Its like saying cock fighting may not be for you but you could at least go to a fight before you decide.

    I'd respectfully suggest anyone who takes pleasure in causing animals distress to try find something else to do with your time.


  • #554
    fourleafclover
    Site Banned Posts: 45 ✭fourleafclover


    Artful_Badger wrote: »

    Why the hell would someone who disagrees with the sport on the grounds of animal welfare want to go and support an event ??

    Its like saying cock fighting may not be for you but you could at least go to a fight before you decide.

    I'd respectfully suggest anyone who takes pleasure in causing animals distress to try find something else to do with your time.


    You clearly have never been to a meeting as your views thoughts and opinions on it are quite wide of the mark. It is quite a shame really that some people form an opinion without due reason. It is like saying I dislike rugby because one player got an injury in a video clip i saw one time. People are entitled to an opinion and a viewpoint without a doubt. However, it should be an educated one.


  • #555
    Artful_Badger
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,339 ✭✭✭Artful_Badger


    fourleafclover wrote: »
    You clearly have never been to a meeting as your views thoughts and opinions on it are quite wide of the mark. It is quite a shame really that some people form an opinion without due reason. It is like saying I dislike rugby because one player got an injury in a video clip i saw one time. People are entitled to an opinion and a viewpoint without a doubt. However, it should be an educated one.

    I've seen enough of it to see that it causes distress to the Hare and in some cases physical harm. Its quite a shame some people have such little regard for creatures that they would put it through something like that just to have something to do of an evening.

    Its nothing like saying anything about rugby or any other sport where people take part of their own free will. Its capturing a Hare and then having dogs chase it to entertain people.


  • #556
    fourleafclover
    Site Banned Posts: 45 ✭fourleafclover


    Artful_Badger wrote: »

    I've seen enough of it to see that it causes distress to the Hare and in some cases physical harm. Its quite a shame some people have such little regard for creatures that they would put it through something like that just to have something to do of an evening.

    Its nothing like saying anything about rugby or any other sport where people take part of their own free will. Its capturing a Hare and then having dogs chase it to entertain people.



    Artful you just literally cemented my argument - if as you say you have seen enough of it you would surely know that coursing begins at 11.30 in the morning and finishes circa 2.30 in the afternoon, it is not an EVENING sport as you proclaim.

    I can only deduce from your apparent misunderstanding of what occurs that you have a very uneducated opinion. That is quite embarassing, to have such a strong stance from something you know very little about would you not say?


  • #557
    Artful_Badger
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,339 ✭✭✭Artful_Badger


    fourleafclover wrote: »
    Artful you just literally cemented my argument - if as you say you have seen enough of it you would surely know that coursing begins at 11.30 in the morning and finishes circa 2.30 in the afternoon, it is not an EVENING sport as you proclaim.

    I can only deduce from your apparent misunderstanding of what occurs that you have a very uneducated opinion. That is quite embarassing, to have such a strong stance from something you know very little about would you not say?

    Whats embarrassing is that considering what we are talking about you think the time of day that it takes place matters.

    My stance in on needlessly causing distress to animals. Its quite clear that that is what takes place in Hare Coursing. In fact you havent once tried to deny that it causes distress to the Hare. You simply throw out nonsense arguments about the time of day its on and trying to compare it to other sports that are not in the remotest sense like it.

    Because you know it causes distress, you just dont care.


  • #558
    fourleafclover
    Site Banned Posts: 45 ✭fourleafclover


    Artful_Badger wrote: »

    Whats embarrassing is that considering what we are talking about you think the time of day that it takes place matters.

    My stance in on needlessly causing distress to animals. Its quite clear that that is what takes place in Hare Coursing. In fact you havent once tried to deny that it causes distress to the Hare. You simply throw out nonsense arguments about the time of day its on and trying to compare it to other sports that are not in the remotest sense like it.

    Because you know it causes distress, you just dont care.


    Show me your study on how it causes distress? I can show you many on how the hare after being coursed its heart rate returns to normal and it eats which happens naturally in the wild also, if distress occured then the hare would not eat and its heart rate would be abnormal.

    Now you came into this thread speaking out against people going coursing and making a self educated opinion on the sport, I have pointed out that you know very little about it and that you have never been to a meeting and as such you can not ask people to not go and witness for themselves.

    You are afraid that people will actually realise that as a sport it has nothing to hide thats its doors are wide open to the public, it is well regulated by the NPWS and it is licensed by the Dept. Or very simply, how can 30000 people attend a coursing event in February with 25 protesters outside of the meeting being the ones who are in the right in their opinion. The numbers do not add up.


  • #559
    Artful_Badger
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,339 ✭✭✭Artful_Badger


    fourleafclover wrote: »
    Show me your study on how it causes distress? I can show you many on how the hare after being coursed its heart rate returns to normal and it eats which happens naturally in the wild also, if distress occured then the hare would not eat and its heart rate would be abnormal.


    lol Holy fcuk you'll even try to claim it doesnt cause the Hare any distress. Explain to me Einstein why would the Hares heart rate be increased ? Anything to do with the fact that its been taken from its environment, locked in a box then released to have two dogs chase it ? And you call me uneducated. :D
    Now you came into this thread speaking out against people going coursing and making a self educated opinion on the sport, I have pointed out that you know very little about it and that you have never been to a meeting and as such you can not ask people to not go and witness for themselves.

    I have witnessed it. There are videos at the start of this thread. Are you gonna claim that isnt coursing ? Are you gonna claim I am wrong in thinking that coursing is the act of two dogs chasing a Hare around a field ? No ? So I am well aware of what takes place then. Going along to support it as if I would suddenly lose interest in the well being of the Hare (presumably because of the amount of craic I'd be having) is just another in a long line of absolutely ridiculous arguments to come from your side of this discussion.
    You are afraid that people will actually realise that as a sport it has nothing to hide thats its doors are wide open to the public, it is well regulated by the NPWS and it is licensed by the Dept. Or very simply, how can 30000 people attend a coursing event in February with 25 protesters outside of the meeting being the ones who are in the right in their opinion. The numbers do not add up.

    And all that means what ? That I shouldnt dislike animals being tormented ? You might get your moral queue by whatever the crowd is doing and whatever you can get away with but I dont. If I see something as wrong I see it as wrong despite how well regulated it is or how many people like it.


  • #560
    fourleafclover
    Site Banned Posts: 45 ✭fourleafclover


    Artful_Badger wrote: »


    lol Holy fcuk you'll even try to claim it doesnt cause the Hare any distress. Explain to me Einstein why would the Hares heart rate be increased ? Anything to do with the fact that its been taken from its environment, locked in a box then released to have two dogs chase it ? And you call me uneducated. :D



    I have witnessed it. There are videos at the start of this thread. Are you gonna claim that isnt coursing ? Are you gonna claim I am wrong in thinking that coursing is the act of two dogs chasing a Hare around a field ? No ? So I am well aware of what takes place then. Going along to support it as if I would suddenly lose interest in the well being of the Hare (presumably because of the amount of craic I'd be having) is just another in a long line of absolutely ridiculous arguments to come from your side of this discussion.



    And all that means what ? That I shouldnt dislike animals being tormented ? You might get your moral queue by whatever the crowd is doing and whatever you can get away with but I dont. If I see something as wrong I see it as wrong despite how well regulated it is or how many people like it.


    I dont have to be Einstein, I just have to be more intelligent than you to realise that when you run your heart rate rises.


    As i said, you have formed your opinion from a video clip, it is plain to see from your inaccurate, uninformed and uneducated arguments that this is the case and engaging with you when you seem unable to accept that witnessing a clip does not give an overall portrayal is like expecting water to flow up a hill.
    Thankfully, anybody reading this will plainly see that and they will make their own opinion by actually attending a meeting. You are trying to argue that 30000 people have a very wrong moral compass and that the 25 divine saviours are correct. It is laughable. Artful you are entitled to your opinion, I personally have no problem with that, I too have mine, I do suggest yours should be better informed/educated but that is your perogative. I do think that you should not be advising people not to attend a meeting, to decide for themselves what the sport is, just on your opinion.

    Coursing has nothing to hide, it is open to anyone to attend, I for one would welcome anybody to a meeting, if they decide it is not for them I shall accept and respect their opinion in equal quantities for the fact that they were open enough to educate and decide for themselves.


  • #561
    Artful_Badger
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,339 ✭✭✭Artful_Badger


    fourleafclover wrote: »
    I dont have to be Einstein, I just have to be more intelligent than you to realise that when you run your heart rate rises.

    And thats all it is, just running ? Not running for its life to avoid two predators which would cause distress to any creature. I fear you're not as intelligent as you think you are.
    As i said, you have formed your opinion from a video clip, it is plain to see from your inaccurate, uninformed and uneducated arguments that this is the case and engaging with you when you seem unable to accept that witnessing a clip does not give an overall portrayal is like expecting water to flow up a hill.

    No, I have formed my opinion based on the fact that the sport itself is two dogs chasing a Hare. You might be influenced by the craic had, and the amount of people there but I wont be. So going wont change my opinion at all unless the Hare is having a right laugh and gives a post match interview outlining his strategy for avoiding the dogs. I dont have to attend a cock fight to know what that entails and how despicable it is and neither do you. But that wont suit your agenda so best ignore it.
    Thankfully, anybody reading this will plainly see that and they will make their own opinion by actually attending a meeting. You are trying to argue that 30000 people have a very wrong moral compass and that the 25 divine saviours are correct. It is laughable. Artful you are entitled to your opinion, I personally have no problem with that, I too have mine, I do suggest yours should be better informed/educated but that is your perogative. I do think that you should not be advising people not to attend a meeting, to decide for themselves what the sport is, just on your opinion.

    Again you seem to have no clue as to what's going on, which I'm sure is clear to any people reading without an agenda. I'm arguing that needlessly tormenting an animal is wrong. You're arguing that loads of people like it so it must be ok. You've attended the events and still you need to use other people to justify it for you. I'd advise everyone not to attend as its nothing more than the needless torment of an animal for sheer entertainment.
    Coursing has nothing to hide, it is open to anyone to attend, I for one would welcome anybody to a meeting, if they decide it is not for them I shall accept and respect their opinion in equal quantities for the fact that they were open enough to educate and decide for themselves.

    You should try get in some dog fights, cock fights and the like too. Educate yourself on them before deciding they aint for you. :rolleyes:


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  • #562
    Benny Cake
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,145 ✭✭✭Benny Cake


    Artful_Badger wrote: »


    You should try get in some dog fights, cock fights and the like too. Educate yourself on them before deciding they aint for you. :rolleyes:

    Both these activities are illegal & unregulated, so the comparison to coursing is a pathetic attempt to curry favour for your argument....


  • #563
    Artful_Badger
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,339 ✭✭✭Artful_Badger


    Benny Cake wrote: »
    Both these activities are illegal & unregulated, so the comparison to coursing is a pathetic attempt to curry favour for your argument....

    It wasnt a comparison. The posters argument was that to have an opinion on such a thing you have to attend and see it for yourself regardless of your views on how it affects the animals.

    Would that be the case if dog fights were legal ? Would he or you have to attend before being able to come to the conclusion that two dogs tearing lumps out of each other for entertainment was wrong ? I didnt think so. Then again in the case of the other poster if it was legal and there was enough people there then it couldnt be wrong.

    Second time in this thread you've jumped in with your two cents without actually understanding what was being discussed.


  • #564
    wexfordman
    Closed Accounts Posts: 490 ✭✭wexfordman


    Artful_Badger wrote: »

    I've seen enough of it to see that it causes distress to the Hare and in some cases physical harm. Its quite a shame some people have such little regard for creatures that they would put it through something like that just to have something to do of an evening.

    Its nothing like saying anything about rugby or any other sport where people take part of their own free will. Its capturing a Hare and then having dogs chase it to entertain people.


    The same can be said for horse racing.I assume you would vote for an end to that also ?

    And fishing,catch and release etc!


  • #565
    Artful_Badger
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,339 ✭✭✭Artful_Badger


    wexfordman wrote: »
    The same can be said for horse racing.I assume you would vote for an end to that also ?

    Indeed I would.


  • #566
    wexfordman
    Closed Accounts Posts: 490 ✭✭wexfordman


    Artful_Badger wrote: »

    Indeed I would.

    Fishing ?


  • #567
    Artful_Badger
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,339 ✭✭✭Artful_Badger


    wexfordman wrote: »
    Fishing ?

    Anything that I'd consider needless and distressing to an animal. Fishing included. There are enough things to occupy us in this world without having to spend our time tormenting other creatures.


  • #568
    wexfordman
    Closed Accounts Posts: 490 ✭✭wexfordman


    Artful_Badger wrote: »

    Anything that I'd consider needless and distressing to an animal. Fishing included. There are enough things to occupy us in this world without having to spend our time tormenting other creatures.

    Are you a vegan ?


  • #569
    lauramckk
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4 ✭lauramckk


    artful i think your posts spell more about you than your opinions. clearly you are against any sport concerning animals. could i ask do you also oppose hurling, gaa, soccer and golf?

    you surely must also be vegan and not wear any animal products?

    your aligning of coursing to illegal cock and dog fighting is despicable. coursing dogs wear muzzles hares run to an escape and it is legal, but that does not suit your argument at all of course so you ignore it. shame on you, then again blatant lies are often the food of antis


  • #570
    lauramckk
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4 ✭lauramckk


    fourleafclover wrote: »


    I dont have to be Einstein, I just have to be more intelligent than you to realise that when you run your heart rate rises.


    As i said, you have formed your opinion from a video clip, it is plain to see from your inaccurate, uninformed and uneducated arguments that this is the case and engaging with you when you seem unable to accept that witnessing a clip does not give an overall portrayal is like expecting water to flow up a hill.
    Thankfully, anybody reading this will plainly see that and they will make their own opinion by actually attending a meeting. You are trying to argue that 30000 people have a very wrong moral compass and that the 25 divine saviours are correct. It is laughable. Artful you are entitled to your opinion, I personally have no problem with that, I too have mine, I do suggest yours should be better informed/educated but that is your perogative. I do think that you should not be advising people not to attend a meeting, to decide for themselves what the sport is, just on your opinion.

    Coursing has nothing to hide, it is open to anyone to attend, I for one would welcome anybody to a meeting, if they decide it is not for them I shall accept and respect their opinion in equal quantities for the fact that they were open enough to educate and decide for themselves.


    well said


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  • #571
    Artful_Badger
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,339 ✭✭✭Artful_Badger


    wexfordman wrote: »
    Are you a vegan ?

    I'm not a strict vegan no. I'm a vegetarian but I try to take care with what I eat. I try to avoid eggs and dairy and such but its tough to avoid them completely, in saying that I dont eat them with any regularity and dont purchase them myself. I'm not perfect in how I live by a long way and I dont expect others to be either, particularly given how much society and the food industry is based on animal products. But with the likes of sports its much more easily avoidable and its an active choice to be involved in the distress with sports for no other reason than for entertainment.


This discussion has been closed.
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