Croke Park II preliminary Talks started today

Rightwing · 27-02-2013 10:47PM

kippy wrote: »

32K is apparently just under the average industrial wage which I think is 33K although that may have changed. It's also the figure the government chose to impost the cut on. Just making the point that the cut isn't "fair"

I understand what you are saying, and it's a very fair point.

My concerns would be they could easily lower that rate to €22K or similar.

kippy · 27-02-2013 10:49PM

Rightwing wrote: »

My concerns would be they could easily lower that rate to €22K or similar.

"They" could do that with anything in relation to means testing etc

Rightwing · 27-02-2013 11:03PM

kippy wrote: »

"They" could do that with anything in relation to means testing etc

That's my whole point.

We have a situation in this country called the 'working poor'. Many on the dole are better off. If they start slashing pensions, the welfare pensions will end up bigger than the workers ones.

Vizzy · 27-02-2013 11:04PM

Rightwing wrote: »

I understand what you are saying, and it's a very fair point.

My concerns would be they could easily lower that rate to €22K or similar.

Why are you concerned ?
Have you started working in the Public sector ?

kippy · 27-02-2013 11:05PM

Rightwing wrote: »

That's my whole point.

We have a situation in this country called the 'working poor'. Many on the dole are better off. If they start slashing pensions, the welfare pensions will end up bigger than the workers ones.

Why would that happen?
You do realise how public sector pensions work, don't you?
And BTW, the "working poor" have nothing to do with pensioners.........

Rightwing · 27-02-2013 11:13PM

kippy wrote: »

Why would that happen?
You do realise how public sector pensions work, don't you?

It would happen because the country is bust.

I'm all in favour of cutting, but I'd max pensions at €50K.

As for the PS, I'd prefer to slash the numbers rather than pay cuts across the board.

Too many chiefs and not enough indians in the PS imo.

kippy · 27-02-2013 11:18PM

Rightwing wrote: »

It would happen because the country is bust.

I'm all in favour of cutting, but I'd max pensions at €50K.

As for the PS, I'd prefer to slash the numbers rather than pay cuts across the board.

Too many chiefs and not enough indians in the PS imo.

And what happens when you cut the numbers?
Where do those numbers go?

There are too many at management grades who are incapable of managing who exist in an organisation where accountability and performance based remuneration are almost non existent, pretty much negating the point of management. I dont however know exactly how to sort this out tbh but head count cuts across the board dont solve anything unless it is targeted.

I digress however, the country has been bust for 5 years now and it hasn't happened as of yet.

My main point, pensioners (not all of them obviously) but the ones on good incomes, haven't paid their "share" and I don't see why not tbh.

Rightwing · 27-02-2013 11:19PM

Vizzy wrote: »

Why are you concerned ?
Have you started working in the Public sector ?

Well I didn't mean it literally.
I'm viewing it from a point of view as if i were in the PS now, I'd be concerned if they started slashing pensions, will the next generation get anything, after paying in all the years.

kippy · 27-02-2013 11:21PM

Rightwing wrote: »

Well I didn't mean it literally.
I'm viewing it from a point of view as if i were in the PS now, I'd be concerned if they started slashing pensions, will the next generation get anything, after paying in all the years.

We wont get anywhere near the value that the current ones are getting and that is 100% straight.
But that is pretty much irrelevant. Those that are getting these great pensions now, need to pay more on them. That is fairness and fair.

Rightwing · 27-02-2013 11:25PM

kippy wrote: »

We wont get anywhere near the value that the current ones are getting and that is 100% straight.
But that is pretty much irrelevant. Those that are getting these great pensions now, need to pay more on them. That is fairness and fair.

I fully agree, that's why I'd have a max pension in the PS of €50K.

kippy · 27-02-2013 11:28PM

Rightwing wrote: »

I fully agree, that's why I'd have a max pension in the PS of €50K.

How are you going to implement that?
Something that hits current pensioners or just the younger ones? (The majority of whom probably wont see that anyway tbh)

Truth sayer · 27-02-2013 11:29PM

Public sector should scrap this new deal and just took for proportionate pay cuts ranging from 2 percent for lower paid up to 20 percent for higher paid (including politicians and judges etc.). This current deal is only good for the higher paid.

I don't work for public sector but can see the big picture here. It's obvious that the government undervalues frontline workers and hopes to protect themselves and their fellow high paid civil servants working 9.30 to 5 ish.

I can't believe you are still paying your union dues for useless representation.

Rightwing · 27-02-2013 11:31PM

Truth sayer wrote: »

Public sector should scrap this new deal and just took for proportionate pay cuts ranging from 2 percent for lower paid up to 20 percent for higher paid (including politicians and judges etc.). This current deal is only good for the higher paid.

I don't work for public sector but can see the big picture here. It's obvious that the government undervalues frontline workers and hopes to protect themselves and their fellow high paid civil servants working 9.30 to 5 ish.

I can't believe you are still paying your union dues for useless representation.

I'll give the government a little credit. Kenny is on about €100K+ less than Ahern, so they have cut their own salaries too. But there's a lot of truth in what you are saying.

kippy · 27-02-2013 11:32PM

Truth sayer wrote: »

Public sector should scrap this new deal and just took for proportionate pay cuts ranging from 2 percent for lower paid up to 20 percent for higher paid (including politicians and judges etc.). This current deal is only good for the higher paid.

I don't work for public sector but can see the big picture here. It's obvious that the government undervalues frontline workers and hopes to protect themselves and their fellow high paid civil servants working 9.30 to 5 ish.

I can't believe you are still paying your union dues for useless representation.

Well, what is happening, as I see it, is that this current deal will split public sector workers into a number of distinct "camps".
With the side effect, as you have said, of people withdrawing their union membership to save money.

The cost of implement CP2 is going to be far greater than the actual implemention of the straight pay cuts you mention so I have no idea why the alternative option isn't put on the table being honest.

Rightwing · 27-02-2013 11:35PM

kippy wrote: »

How are you going to implement that?
Something that hits current pensioners or just the younger ones? (The majority of whom probably wont see that anyway tbh)

Well obviously I can't implement it, but current pensioners max of €50K, and that would be the tiny minority. Most should be on about 25-30K.

kippy · 27-02-2013 11:39PM

Rightwing wrote: »

Well obviously I can't implement it, but current pensioners max of €50K, and that would be the tiny minority. Most should be on about 25-30K.

You have no idea of the figures involved though, do you?
(I dont either btw)

So anyone currently on a public service pension of anything over 50K is immediately reduced to 50k?

Why 50K, why not 40?

Being the devils advocate here.

Truth sayer · 27-02-2013 11:40PM

Pensioners on just €30 k or so should not be touched. How low can we stoop? It's the higher paid civil servants and free loading self employed that need to be tackled. Lots of self employed set themselves up as limited companies and only draw small salaries while leaving cash build up in their company accounts. The paye worker cannot do this.

Also, time to take a few percent off the people claiming social welfare.

kippy · 27-02-2013 11:43PM

Truth sayer wrote: »

Pensioners on just €30 k or so should not be touched. How low can we stoop? It's the higher paid civil servants and free loading self employed that need to be tackled. Lots of self employed set themselves up as limited companies and only draw small salaries while leaving cash build up in their company accounts. The paye worker cannot do this.

Also, time to take a few percent off the people claiming social welfare.

No one is saying that that figure should be touched.

Vizzy · 27-02-2013 11:44PM

Rightwing wrote: »

Well obviously I can't implement it, but current pensioners max of €50K, and that would be the tiny minority. Most should be on about 25-30K.

Given that the average wage in the PS is/was €47,000'ish in 2011(and falling),
none of them will get €25K as a pension,never mind €50K

Rightwing · 27-02-2013 11:47PM

Vizzy wrote: »

Given that the average wage in the PS is/was €47,000'ish in 2011(and falling),
none of them will get €25K as a pension,never mind €50K

That's basically my point, I'd leave the average worker alone, but these former ministers, judges, attorney generals etc, that's where my axe would fall.

Rightwing · 27-02-2013 11:49PM

kippy wrote: »

You have no idea of the figures involved though, do you?
(I dont either btw)

So anyone currently on a public service pension of anything over 50K is immediately reduced to 50k?

Why 50K, why not 40?

Being the devils advocate here.

No, I don't know. And if the max pension in the PS was €40K, you certainly wouldn't hear me complain.

Truth sayer · 27-02-2013 11:49PM

Average figures are very mis leading. Average of one person on € 20k and second person on €60k is €40 k. The average can mask the high salaries of college lecturers, esri, consultants, politicians etc.

creedp · 28-02-2013 01:40AM

Rightwing wrote: »

I do agree that's high, but what does €32,500 work out after tax? There isn;t much room to cut there imo.

I would have loved to have seen the likes of the bertie ahern and the regulators for instance having they pensions cut by 25-30%

I find it hard to fathom out people sometimes. Apparently €65,000 is very high pay for a public servant and this person has a gild edged pension worth 50% of his salary. Yet when he receives this gild edged pension suddenly it becomes a poor pension only marginally above the non-con available to persons who never did a days work in their life. As a consequence there is no room to cut this gild edged [poor] pension. Maybe if this is taken full circle we find that €65k is not really a high salary after all.

creedp · 28-02-2013 01:48AM

Truth sayer wrote: »

Average figures are very mis leading. Average of one person on € 20k and second person on €60k is €40 k. The average can mask the high salaries of college lecturers, esri, consultants, politicians etc.

I've always agreed with this point which is why I consider comparing av PS salary to av private sector salary deeply flawed also. Taking it one step further, the very low pay in the hospitality sector masks the higher average wages elsewhere in the private sector which is why the 50% premium in PS oft quoted is meaningless. This large premium however has been used to justify massive pay cuts in the PS with combined reductions of 20% since 2008 for higher paid people. However, if we consider the 50% premium approp sure we have a further 30% to go in order to have parity with private sector.

Head The Wall · 28-02-2013 07:12AM

kceire wrote: »

Most members will never earn a PS pension of 32k so it won't affect the majority of us.

What else do you use this crystal ball of yours to predict? You can't compare pension contributions now with what pension will be received in 30 years time.

Vizzy · 28-02-2013 08:02AM

Head The Wall wrote: »

What else do you use this crystal ball of yours to predict? You can't compare pension contributions now with what pension will be received in 30 years time.

He must be borrowing yours

Riskymove · 28-02-2013 08:09AM

Head The Wall wrote: »

What else do you use this crystal ball of yours to predict? You can't compare pension contributions now with what pension will be received in 30 years time.

obviously inflation comes into play but using today's figures is the only useful way to look at it

if the point is most of today's working PS wont get a pension of 32k (in today's value)...then she's probably right

It was mentioned at the wekend that 80% of PS pensions are under 30k

Riskymove · 28-02-2013 08:10AM

kippy wrote: »

32K is apparently just under the average industrial wage which I think is 33K although that may have changed. It's also the figure the government chose to impost the cut on. Just making the point that the cut isn't "fair"

the 32.5k is based on half of 65k t(he threshold for pay cuts for workers)...its as simple as that

Head The Wall · 28-02-2013 08:49AM

Riskymove wrote: »

obviously inflation comes into play but using today's figures is the only useful way to look at it

if the point is most of today's working PS wont get a pension of 32k (in today's value)...then she's probably right

It was mentioned at the wekend that 80% of PS pensions are under 30k

Yes but take somebody retiring today on 65k, their pension will be 32.5 as well as the tax free lump sum. What was that person paying towards their pension 30 years ago? People are trying to use the max pay rate today for their grade as their finishing pension which is a ridiculous comparison. It would be interesting to see what the max pay for a clerical officer or equivalent was 30 years ago and compare it to todays max of 35k.

Gumbo · 28-02-2013 08:55AM

Head The Wall wrote: »

Yes but take somebody retiring today on 65k, their pension will be 32.5 as well as the tax free lump sum. What was that person paying towards their pension 30 years ago? People are trying to use the max pay rate today for their grade as their finishing pension which is a ridiculous comparison. It would be interesting to see what the max pay for a clerical officer or equivalent was 30 years ago and compare it to todays max of 35k.

Equally, it would be interesting to see how that max salary from 30 years ago played out in the real world. 10k-15k salaries were the norm in the early 90's, but my parents still managed 3 of us and got out for a drink once or twice a week!
its all relative. They probably payed an equilivent % of their salary to the scheme.

Croke Park II preliminary Talks started today

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