Exclusion of Sex Workers from Justice Committee

Czarcasm wrote: »

I happen to care about people which is why I make it my business to see that they are not exploited.

We are not discussing individuals who have been exploited, we are discussing prostitution as a legitimate business with the appropriate regulations and protective legislation.

GalwayGuy2 wrote: »

If you want me to be honest I haven't formed a fully developed view on this subject,there so many practical and moral factors in play, but this did stand out. (Although I probably could have picked a better quote)



Do you see a women who has sex for money as a bad/in-human/slutty/tragic figure?

It's a bit strange that some people who say they are defending women's rights, to totally stereotype a woman who is a prostitute. You even feel a vibe that a woman who is a prostitute is somehow less of a woman, or even dirty in some way. It seems quite...I dunno, like a remnant of the days when a woman was prized for her virginity, and "purity", and rather sexist Chivalry was rife.

There are a million and one reasons why a man/woman would turn to prostitution (although I don't believe it's for physical pleasure) and to give a blanket stereotype over a woman can be quite sexist in itself.

Btw, I'm not saying everybody, or even a majority, sound a little sexist when trying to criminalize prostitution, but I think it is there all the same muddying the waters of the debate.

The subject of sex generally is a strange one. When you think of your first love and the intense feeling you had for them, your first kiss, your first sexual experience and how you longed to be in that persons arms touch and caress them. All things of beauty that we aspire to have at some point in our lives.

Then there is 'Jack the Lad' who goes out and picks up a woman and all his mates laugh and think he is a lucky bugger, as he claims his next sexual experience after plying her with drinks all night.

We are sexual beings. We were designed to crave it, to want it and in some cases to need it. Many of us don't feel whole without it (I know from experience). Our bodies were not designed to simply have sex for procreation, we have erogenous zones and we have an adrenalin rush, endorphins and these can also work to decrease pain and stress.

There have even been medical reports proving that a regular sex life can increase your life by 10 years, reduce cancer in both men and women and various other health aspects.

We're not talking rape here, which is never right, we're talking sex between two consenting adults. Why wouldn't they both enjoy it? Of course sometimes two people will click better than others and sometimes there is very little actual sex involved at all, but more cuddling, kissing and massage. That alone can release tension and you wouldn't believe how relaxed and well, 'normal' it can feel to be lay next to a complete stranger you have just got to know in the most intimate way possible.

Sex is not bad. It is people that are bad. It is more about attitude. Someone who is misogynistic is going to behave like an Ass what ever he is doing. A woman who doesn't enjoy sex is never going to do so, unless she opens her mind to it and allows her body to respond.

What ever you do ideally you should stay within your limits and comfort zone. If you don't like your job, then you have to decide if you are ok to continue doing it, or you look for an alternative and seek help. At least if you stop being an Escort you don't get sent to prison for bailing out like you would if you went AWOL in the Army, or under a contract that requires you to stay for 3 years, due to money invested into your education as many apprenticeships do. There is also no need for anyone to be homeless these days. There ARE alternatives to living on the street.

CK73 wrote: »

We do have a housing problem in the UK, due to the government rewarding laziness and not taking proper precaution with immigration. There are literally millions of people living off the state without doing a days work. In fact forget Sex Work, there are countless young women in the UK getting pregnant exactly for that reason and others who have children every 6 to 7 years in order to not have to work or move from Income support to Job seekers.

There are still hostels and refuges and other places available. Anyone who goes to the CAB will be given help.

There is also the fact that many homeless make themselves homeless. As in, they just walk out. If you know how to play the system you can live like a king.

I have never taken the Daily Mail quite that literally myself I am afraid.

zef wrote: »

Another thing, do you feel it's 'ok' to use a person for sex?

Of course not, it is much more respectful to pay them a decent rate for their labour.

zef wrote: »

Would you like your sister, mother or daughter to be an escort/ prostitute ?

My mother would tell me to mind my own business, not daughters or sisters.

aare wrote: »

I have never taken the Daily Mail quite that literally myself I am afraid.

I never expected you to act like a condescending arse hole. Guess my perception will change over time of many posters.

I don't read any tabloid papers. I think they are all full of gossip and crap.

zef wrote: »

"
Why do you think prostitution commands so high a price - do you think the 'prostitutes' actually enjoy it? Do you not think they find a lot of it loathsome and disgusting. I have met a few ex-'escorts' and this is how they all feel.

So they obviously weighed that feeling against the benefit and made their own decision that it was worth it to them, just as everyone is entitled to decide FOR THEMSELVES the cost to benefit ratio of any situation they consider.

SoupMonster wrote: »

"Why do you think prostitution commands so high a price .... "

Research* has shown that prostitutes detest their customers, especially married ones. There is almost no way that a prostitute would even consider a relationship with a client, they are cheaters full stop. Prostitutes, like other women want devoted loving partner.

Prostitution is very highly paid (on a scale similar to upper professional/senior management), this is primarily to pay for the social stigma and psychological hardship involved in the forced intimacy (physical and otherwise).

Wouldn't the same reasoning also cover criminal defence lawyers?

...and NOBODY is trying to suggest criminalising the purchase of their services.

Sorry, Research referred to is at
http://www.aic.gov.au/publications/previous%20series/lcj/1-20/working.html
This a from Australian government but is a bit dated (1991). But useful since the Australian-NSW / New Zealand model is touted as the alternative to the Swedish model.

If you do read this Aussie publication be prepared for a complete and total callous disregard for the 'juvenile prostitutes' and trafficed/forced prostitutes, a championing of full decriminalisation (of 'sex work', of brothels, advertising, procuring, ... everything) and glorification of 'sex work' as a wise career choice. Only when i finished reading it did I discover that the author was an transgender academic (obviously completely unbiased.

I would direct you to anything written to Janice G. Raymond for a more sympathetic abolitionist viewpoint. I tend to agree with her viewpoint almost 100%

aare,
You need to read Janice Raymond's opinion of transgendered people (not pretty). There are various pro/anti-sex-work camps within the feminist academics, and some that are very anti-transgender. Having read the full publication, it has some very informative data analysis, some good discussion on that data and background BUT is does show a true bias that I would put down to the authors background and life experiences (maybe erroneously).
For example:-

"What we have found in this analysis of prostitute sub-groups based on age of entry into prostitution is not one "typical" prostitute type, but three. James (1979), Davis (1971) and Silbert (1982), by their concentration on "kids" and "girls", arrived at findings for those groups which suggest a scenario of abuse leading into prostitution. McLeod (1982) and Pheterson (1989), on the other hand, concentrated on adult prostitutes and correctly concluded that female prostitutes are in sex work because of economic circumstances and not broken homes, drug use, juvenile delinquency or child sexual assault. Prostitutes across the world have rightly objected to being lumped in with the "kids" and "girls".... "
http://www.aic.gov.au/publications/previous%20series/lcj/1-20/working/chapter%205%20the%20prostitutes%20response.html

By the way , this paragraph is discussing the age of entry into prostitution in Sydney in the late 1980s.
The 'kids' started prostituting at < 16 years old. (5% of sample)
The 'girls' started prostituting at > 16 but < 18 years old. (26% of sample)

Further notes on age of entry:- Internationally is is generally accepted to be on average between 13 and 16 years old, 14 is sometimes quoted. Interestingly, 'I though she was 18' is a legal defence in many jurisdictions including Ireland (Shows a real commitment doesn't it).
Holland has raised the legal age for prostitutes to 21.




Note that Holland has raised the legal age to 21 in order to better combat the

Further on the earning potential...

Consider ...
The Dutch 70-year-old twin sisters Louise and Martine Fokkens have serviced more than 300,000 customers between them. One continues to work because she says she cannot afford to retire. So although the money may be good, in many cases the associated lifestyle eats it all up.
In a 2012 interview they complained that the legalization of 2000 had lead to more criminality and to taxation of the trade.

Consider
Bangladesh, primarily an Islamic country, but with legal prostitution regulated in brothels. Look at photo 3.
"Eleven-year-old Shefali gets her eyebrow threaded. Shefali was born in Kandapara brothel as her mother was also a prostitute. She has to serve around 20-25 customers per day. Shefali doesn't know how much she earns as her Madam takes away all of her income. In exchange she gets food three times in a day and some gifts occasionally."
http://www.buzzfeed.com/gavon/30-tragic-beautiful-photos-of-teenage-prostitutes

I put these up because I do not believe that either here or the Justice Committee should limit the discussion to 'how to legislate for/against prostitution', wider questions should be addressed.
As a society, do we want to promote/maximise, limit/tolerate, eliminate/minimise prostitution?
Is it a woman's right to sell sexual services?
Is it a man's right to purchase sexual services?

To be provocative:-
Does the stupid, fat, ugly, hairy smelly old man have the right to have his dick sucked by the cute 18yo Ukrainian girl who finds him horribly repulsive simply because he has saved up 200Euro?

Is this a good idea?
"Berlin's "Pussy Club" has made headlines in the local press by giving clients unlimited access to all its ladies for €70, which includes an all-you-can-eat-and-drink offer, in a bid to weather Germany's worst economic slump since World War II." I believe the girls earn between 100 and 200 Euro per day in this type of establishment.

How about this?
http://www.dailytelegraph.com.au/news/sydney-news/sydney-escort-agency-selling-19-year-old-virgin/story-e6freuzi-1226189394808
Brothel auctions 19-year old virgin. (In this scenario, the brothel would keep up to 50% of the winning bid).

or to take it further... why not make it a reality TV show?
http://www.dailytelegraph.com.au/lifestyle/pimp-my-life-sordid-plan-to-sell-virginity-of-australians-in-the-us-at-nevada-brothel/story-e6frf00i-1225864266203


There is sometimes good money to be made, but I doubt that the 300,000 or so ukrainian, romanian , latvian, etc girls in Germany are making a decent German wage (not at Euro30 a ride), but good by back-home standards possibly. I guess maybe 1,000,000 working girls in China are making a good wage, and the other 4,000,000 are subsisting. I doubt the 150,000 Koreans trafficed to USA or the 100,000 thought to have been trafficed to Australia are getting to keep more that 25% of what they earn.

SoupMonster wrote: »

Further on the earning potential...
Consider ...
The Dutch 70-year-old twin sisters Louise and Martine Fokkens have serviced more than 300,000 customers between them. One continues to work because she says she cannot afford to retire. So although the money may be good, in many cases the associated lifestyle eats it all up.

They seem to be old, wise ladies, and from reading several articles about them it is not my impression that she could not afford to retire because of some special "prostitution lifestyle" just the same ordinary, everyday lifestyle a lot of pensioners find it very hard to make ends meet upon.

SoupMonster wrote: »

Consider
Bangladesh, primarily an Islamic country, but with legal prostitution regulated in brothels. Look at photo 3.
"Eleven-year-old Shefali gets her eyebrow threaded. Shefali was born in Kandapara brothel as her mother was also a prostitute. She has to serve around 20-25 customers per day. Shefali doesn't know how much she earns as her Madam takes away all of her income. In exchange she gets food three times in a day and some gifts occasionally."
http://www.buzzfeed.com/gavon/30-tragic-beautiful-photos-of-teenage-prostitutes

Let us first look at how one of these lovely girls evaluates her own alternatives:
“Hashi cannot be sad ever. Sadness is a part of our lives, so we don’t bother with sadness. My parents will not be able to identify me anymore. There is a huge difference between my present appearance and the malnourished look of my childhood. I am healthier than before and fit to serve a lot of customers in a day.”

Her choices are harsh beyond our comprehension...but she obviously prefers sex work to the others, who are you to aspire to take that from her and make her harsh life even worse?

SoupMonster wrote: »

I put these up because I do not believe that either here or the Justice Committee should limit the discussion to 'how to legislate for/against prostitution', wider questions should be addressed.
As a society, do we want to promote/maximise, limit/tolerate, eliminate/minimise prostitution?
Is it a woman's right to sell sexual services?
Is it a man's right to purchase sexual services?

To be provocative:-
Does the stupid, fat, ugly, hairy smelly old man have the right to have his dick sucked by the cute 18yo Ukrainian girl who finds him horribly repulsive simply because he has saved up 200Euro?

Of course he does if she wants that €200 and does not mind doing it. That is her decision to make

SoupMonster wrote: »

Is this a good idea?
"Berlin's "Pussy Club" has made headlines in the local press by giving clients unlimited access to all its ladies for €70, which includes an all-you-can-eat-and-drink offer, in a bid to weather Germany's worst economic slump since World War II." I believe the girls earn between 100 and 200 Euro per day in this type of establishment.

ABSOLUTELY if it is the best way for the ladies to go on earning the living they need in a dire economic climate, if they would rather be unemployed and struggle at subsistence they would be.

SoupMonster wrote: »

How about this?
http://www.dailytelegraph.com.au/news/sydney-news/sydney-escort-agency-selling-19-year-old-virgin/story-e6freuzi-1226189394808
Brothel auctions 19-year old virgin. (In this scenario, the brothel would keep up to 50% of the winning bid).

Squalid, but far less squalid than running out of the money you need for a once in a lifetime chance to complete your education and build a good life and career

SoupMonster wrote: »

or to take it further... why not make it a reality TV show?
http://www.dailytelegraph.com.au/lifestyle/pimp-my-life-sordid-plan-to-sell-virginity-of-australians-in-the-us-at-nevada-brothel/story-e6frf00i-1225864266203

You can criminalise ALL forms of reality TV as far as I am concerned AND the people who willingly flock to participate in it.

SoupMonster wrote: »

There is sometimes good money to be made, but I doubt that the 300,000 or so ukrainian, romanian , latvian, etc girls in Germany are making a decent German wage (not at Euro30 a ride), but good by back-home standards possibly. I guess maybe 1,000,000 working girls in China are making a good wage, and the other 4,000,000 are subsisting. I doubt the 150,000 Koreans trafficed to USA or the 100,000 thought to have been trafficed to Australia are getting to keep more that 25% of what they earn.

How you feel about what these people are earning is completely irrelevant, all that counts is how they feel about it by their own standards in terms of their own lives.

In many of the cases you cite their alternative would be hopeless destitution. They obviously prefer to take their only chance of something better...

Who the feck are you to deny them that?