Exclusion of Sex Workers from Justice Committee

Czarcasm · 18-02-2013 08:04PM

Grayson wrote: »

@Czarcasm I don't want to quote a big post. There have been far too many so far

I think my main gripe (and a lot of others) is that, as you said, there was only one representative. But there were 14 anti prostitution representatives there.

Just as a matter if interest, what do you think should be done. You've expressed a lot of your feelings about the act of being a prostitute, but I'm just wondering, do you think there's legislation that should be implemented or do you like the status quo?

You're not going to like it Grayson but I want to see legislation that would implement a zero tolerance policy on sex workers and those that avail of their services.

I know I've harped on in this thread but it's something I'm passionate about is that nobody should have the option of considering a career as a sex worker. I believe it to be incredibly dehumanising activity to trade one's body for money and it's not an activity I would like to see promoted, encouraged, or even tolerated. I believe as a civilised society we owe more vulnerable sections of society that much at least.

I believe that by working with young people early enough, and educating them and encouraging them to fulfill their potential, they will by extension make better life choices and won't end up in a position where they have to pay for their third level education by selling themselves. They won't see sex work as a quick and easy way to make a fast buck, they will develop the maturity early to be able to plan for a better future for themselves besides putting themselves at such personal risk, mentally, emotionally, or physically.

aare · 18-02-2013 08:25PM

David900 wrote: »

They might but they might not, neither of us knows but we both have an opinion. It just differs.

I have no problem with them being an escort advertising medium, its their history of involvement with organising and profiting from prostitution I am referring to.

Can you prove that person no longer has a involvement in the business? A person transferring legal ownership to a spouse/partner might not be all that retired .

Fine, let's clear this up in a sane way shall we...questions for sexworkie:

Have you ever owned an interest in any escort agency or advertising site?
Will you, personally, suffer any financial disadvantage in the event of the introduction of "The Swedish Model"?

aare · 18-02-2013 08:27PM

Grayson wrote: »

But nurses don't have to defend their jobs and they use the florence nightingale card when it suits.
they also have a large union.

...a large union that is cheerfully campaigning to destroy the livelihoods of sex workers too...

CK73 · 18-02-2013 08:29PM

The committee is not discussing how they can improve the quality of life or safety of Sex Workers, it is talking about trafficking and how they can reduce it with regards to those trafficked purely for sexual purposes. With this in mind they don't give a toss about consensual sex workers and are willing to sacrifice our safety and well being in order to decrease a number that had already halved (on paper 22) from 2009 to 2011.

Now, not only does the legislation offered make the lives worse for those ladies working by choice, it will not actually stop trafficking, but may increase it, as the dwindling guarda (50,000 cuts expected) will have less time to spare seeking them out in order to catch clients who will have their lives ruined. This also will be almost impossible to police, as they just won't have the man power and the only reason Sweden has higher trafficking records after the Swedish model was introduced, was due to extra money and man power devoted to the cause.

I find it quite funny that during this thread it has been said that the ladies are open to abuse and violence and yet I have been accused of taking advantage of insecure men. Can you really have it both ways? Am I the victim or the vixen?

I don't think I'm a special case. There are many women like me who have looked for alternative work, or something to boost their income and have discovered how they can work the hours that they want, when they want and how they want within this industry. No one tells me what to do or makes me do it and I discovered it after a friend of mine had joined a website.

By the way. I would never work in a brothel. The idea of lining up and having a man choose me (or not as the case may be) out of a line up makes my stomach turn. Not for me at all.

aare · 18-02-2013 08:31PM

Czarcasm wrote: »

In ANY career there are positive and negative aspects, but sex work is not a career that any young person in my opinion should aspire to.

What I do not understand is why you think ANYONE should take your personal opinion into account in choosing their career path?

aare · 18-02-2013 08:33PM

Czarcasm wrote: »

You're not going to like it Grayson but I want to see legislation that would implement a zero tolerance policy on sex workers and those that avail of their services.

I know I've harped on in this thread but it's something I'm passionate about is that nobody should have the option of considering a career as a sex worker. I believe it to be incredibly dehumanising activity to trade one's body for money and it's not an activity I would like to see promoted, encouraged, or even tolerated. I believe as a civilised society we owe more vulnerable sections of society that much at least.

I believe that by working with young people early enough, and educating them and encouraging them to fulfill their potential, they will by extension make better life choices and won't end up in a position where they have to pay for their third level education by selling themselves. They won't see sex work as a quick and easy way to make a fast buck, they will develop the maturity early to be able to plan for a better future for themselves besides putting themselves at such personal risk, mentally, emotionally, or physically.

Are you ABSOLUTELY sure it is not more that you have a pathological compulsion to impose control on the lives of others?

Seachmall · 18-02-2013 08:36PM

Czarcasm wrote: »

I believe it to be incredibly dehumanising activity to trade one's body for money

And do you have any reasons for that belief?

Nodin · 18-02-2013 08:39PM

Czarcasm wrote: »

You're not going to like it Grayson but I want to see legislation that would implement a zero tolerance policy on sex workers and those that avail of their services.

.......

So you're going with the approach that has the 100% track record of success, I see.

Czarcasm · 18-02-2013 09:08PM

CK73 wrote: »

I find it quite funny that during this thread it has been said that the ladies are open to abuse and violence and yet I have been accused of taking advantage of insecure men. Can you really have it both ways? Am I the victim or the vixen?

I think you know well what I'm talking about. It can of course go both ways. I see no reason why anyone should have to pay for sex. I see no reason for anyone to become a sex worker. Lets go with a practical example then-

You seem to be able to pick and choose both your clientelle and your working conditions, so we'll say for example you can charge clients €1,000 an hour for your company. Now contrast that with a young inexperienced person who will negotiate €20 to perform oral sex on a complete stranger who pucks the head off them because she doesn't want them to ejaculate in her mouth. See the difference now?

I don't think I'm a special case. There are many women like me who have looked for alternative work, or something to boost their income and have discovered how they can work the hours that they want, when they want and how they want within this industry. No one tells me what to do or makes me do it and I discovered it after a friend of mine had joined a website.

By the way. I would never work in a brothel. The idea of lining up and having a man choose me (or not as the case may be) out of a line up makes my stomach turn. Not for me at all.

Many sex workers don't have those choices available to them when they choose to become a sex worker to pay the arrears on their mortgage for example just to keep a roof over their heads or feed their family. So in that respect, yes, you are an exceptional case and well you know it.

Czarcasm · 18-02-2013 09:11PM

aare wrote: »

What I do not understand is why you think ANYONE should take your personal opinion into account in choosing their career path?

For the same reason anyone should take your opinion into account when revising legislation regarding sex work, if you must be so smart about it.

Czarcasm · 18-02-2013 09:14PM

aare wrote: »

Are you ABSOLUTELY sure it is not more that you have a pathological compulsion to impose control on the lives of others?

Quite sure. Perhaps you misread my post when I said that I encourage people to fulfill their potential. Anybody as I've stated already has the potential to be a sex worker, but everybody has the potential to aspire to something better.

Seachmall · 18-02-2013 09:16PM

Czarcasm wrote: »

Quite sure. Perhaps you misread my post when I said that I encourage people to fulfill their potential. Anybody as I've stated already has the potential to be a sex worker, but everybody has the potential to aspire to something better.

You've yet to explain why it's an "incredibly dehumanising activity to trade one's body for money".

Czarcasm · 18-02-2013 09:17PM

Seachmall wrote: »

And do you have any reasons for that belief?

Yes I do, from personal experience and from the experience of friends and the experience of those I meet on a regular basis in the course of work I do voluntarily and don't charge for.

Seachmall · 18-02-2013 09:18PM

Czarcasm wrote: »

Yes I do, from personal experience and from the experience of friends and the experience of those I meet on a regular basis in the course of work I do voluntarily and don't charge for.

Those aren't reasons. Those are the origins of reasons.

aare · 18-02-2013 09:26PM

Czarcasm wrote: »

Many sex workers don't have those choices available to them when they choose to become a sex worker to pay the arrears on their mortgage for example just to keep a roof over their heads or feed their family.

So why do you want laws that would prevent them being able to do that? Are you some kind of sadistic monster?

Czarcasm · 18-02-2013 09:26PM

Nodin wrote: »

So you're going with the approach that has the 100% track record of success, I see.

You might see it as a futile exercise, but I happen to believe that I am effecting change one person at a time, and that's one person less that will become involved in becoming a sex worker and will choose to do something more fulfilling with their life.

Nothing in life is guaranteed 100%, but does that mean then you just give up and accept it, even decriminalise it because it appears a futile exercise to try and prevent it? That in my opinion is the wrong attitude to have if you want to create a progressive society.

That is why in my opinion sex workers are completely unnecessary and no person should ever feel the need to pay for sex, nor to offer sex for sale. We as a society should collectively aspire to treat our fellow human beings with more dignity and respect than to reduce them to a tradeable commodity.

aare · 18-02-2013 09:29PM

Czarcasm wrote: »

Quite sure. Perhaps you misread my post when I said that I encourage people to fulfill their potential. Anybody as I've stated already has the potential to be a sex worker, but everybody has the potential to aspire to something better.

But you want to usurp their right to define and choose their own potential altogether...that is none of your business.

Czarcasm · 18-02-2013 09:31PM

aare wrote: »

So why do you want laws that would prevent them being able to do that? Are you some kind of sadistic monster?

There are alternatives, like resources and support systems in place that these people can turn to before choosing to become sex workers.

I'd be a monster if I didn't encourage a person to explore these alternatives as opposed to encouraging them to sell their body to be used for sex.

aare · 18-02-2013 09:32PM

Czarcasm wrote: »

Yes I do, from personal experience and from the experience of friends and the experience of those I meet on a regular basis in the course of work I do voluntarily and don't charge for.

Ah...NOW I see...you have sold sex at some point and FOUND it to be an "incredibly dehumanising experience" and want to insist everybody else feels the same way whether they do or not.

Nodin · 18-02-2013 09:33PM

Czarcasm wrote: »

You might see it as a futile exercise, .

No, I don't see it as a futile exericise, I know its a futile exercise because its never, ever, ever worked. It would, as ever, make it harder to engage with and protect those involved. Your fluffy aspirations need a dose of cold reality.

aare · 18-02-2013 09:35PM

Czarcasm wrote: »

There are alternatives, like resources and support systems in place that these people can turn to before choosing to become sex workers.

I am afraid that is an assessment of the current economic climate so unrealistically optimistic that it borders on psychosis

Czarcasm wrote: »

I'd be a monster if I didn't encourage a person to explore these alternatives as opposed to encouraging them to sell their body to be used for sex.

...and just how long do you think a mum with three kids who is about to be evicted can afford to spend swanning around "exploring these alternatives"?

...and, for the benefit of anyone *IN* that position, or close to it...let us have a list of "these alternatives" with phone numbers and contact details where known.

18-02-2013 09:36PM

Czarcasm wrote: »

That is why in my opinion sex workers are completely unnecessary

Well don't go to one, then.
Meanwhile, the rest of the people who do want them...

The Th!ng · 18-02-2013 09:36PM

Its all about sex.....for money, if there was no money involved at all, women such as CK73, Sweet Rachel, and thousands more like them could travel the country and screw in exactly the same fashion as they do now and there wouldn't be a thing that those opposed could do about it.

aare · 18-02-2013 09:38PM

bluewolf wrote: »

Well don't go to one, then.
Meanwhile, the rest of the people who do want them...

BL**DY GOOD POINT...

I was FORGETTING that aspect...

Seachmall · 18-02-2013 09:39PM

Czarcasm wrote: »

We as a society should collectively aspire to treat our fellow human beings with more dignity and respect than to reduce them to a tradeable commodity.

Providing a service doesn't make you a commodity, it makes your service a commodity.

I'm still waiting for reasons as to why an escort is different from anyone else who provides a service.

You've said it dehumanising (more-so than being a clown at a kids party apparently) but not explained why.

aare · 18-02-2013 09:40PM

The Th!ng wrote: »

Its all about sex.....for money, if there was no money involved at all, women such as CK73, Sweet Rachel, and thousands more like them could travel the country and screw in exactly the same fashion as they do now and there wouldn't be a thing that those opposed could do about it.

Pared back to basics, it IS a tiny bit disturbed to make something perfectly legal for free and a crime if you pay for it.

18-02-2013 09:40PM

Yeah, I don't suppose cleaning toilets for min wage or less is very humanising or makes your service any less a tradeable commodity

Czarcasm · 18-02-2013 09:47PM

bluewolf wrote: »

Well don't go to one, then.
Meanwhile, the rest of the people who do want them...

If only it were that simple. I happen to care about people which is why I make it my business to see that they are not exploited.

I'm not going to stop doing what I do because people on the internet disagree with me. You're not the only resistance I meet with on a daily basis.

CK73 · 18-02-2013 09:47PM

Czarcasm wrote: »

I think you know well what I'm talking about. It can of course go both ways. I see no reason why anyone should have to pay for sex. I see no reason for anyone to become a sex worker. Lets go with a practical example then-

You seem to be able to pick and choose both your clientelle and your working conditions, so we'll say for example you can charge clients €1,000 an hour for your company. Now contrast that with a young inexperienced person who will negotiate €20 to perform oral sex on a complete stranger who pucks the head off them because she doesn't want them to ejaculate in her mouth. See the difference now?

Many sex workers don't have those choices available to them when they choose to become a sex worker to pay the arrears on their mortgage for example just to keep a roof over their heads or feed their family. So in that respect, yes, you are an exceptional case and well you know it.

You must enjoy making assumptions? When I started it was because my original job was barely making ends meet. I was living day to day on the wages I had with a job that took me 4 years to train for and then... my ex decided to stop child support payments and as he had left the Country he was quite in his right to do so, in fact the state were offering him a refund on funds given after he moved.

This put me in an impossible situation where I would have lost my house and my families home. I was determined not to let this happen. I looked at my situation and went through all the avenues I had available to me in order to rectify the problem and this came up top, as I felt confident that I could do the work.

I decided from day one where my boundaries should be and it took me maybe 2 or 3 bookings to tweak and learn and know how to keep my self respect and control. The fact is an Independent Escort can charge far more when she is new and when she is young, so the fact that I am mature actually goes against me, but there is no point worrying about what others are earning. I have to stay true to myself and feel comfortable with what I need to achieve my goals.

I certainly don't set out to rip anyone off, but I look at what I offer, how much money I invest in touring, being away from family and a little extra in case something does happen to stop me working, plus some aside for the tax man and I make enough to pay my bills, my mortgage and some goes into the kitty to pay off old debts.

That's it. I don't treat it like a job where I am there to be degraded and I don't really understand why any woman would, if she is treating it like an occupation and not a 'get out of jail free' card. To me they are not Sex Workers, they are women who are being taken advantage of due to desperation and likely it was not their idea in the first place (Coercion).

So make it regulated. Any woman doing sexual acts without proof that she is registered and above board and paying taxes is therefore not doing it of her own free will and needs help. The rest of us can then work without fear or reprimand.

18-02-2013 09:48PM

Czarcasm wrote: »

If only it were that simple. I happen to care about people

And the rest of us don't?

which is why I make it my business to see that they are not exploited.

Not exploited - all the power in the world to you
But if people choose to do it in complete free will and you're trying to stop them because you don't approve - no

Exclusion of Sex Workers from Justice Committee

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