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Croke Park II preliminary Talks started today

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Comments

  • #1562
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 8,350 ✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    kceire wrote: »
    How is it abused?
    We can only build up one day per month, theres no way around that.

    I know people who used it as way of gaining extra holidays. When did the one day a month restriction come in and how is it decide that the extra time is needed?


  • #1563
    Gumbo
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 41,474 Mod ✭✭✭✭Gumbo


    jh79 wrote: »
    I know people who used it as way of gaining extra holidays. When did the one day a month restriction come in and how is it decide that the extra time is needed?

    Its been in since im there in 2009, and the existing staff say they always had one per month too. And it has to be used that month, we cannot carry them forward or anything to the following month.


  • #1564
    frankosw
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 809 ✭✭✭frankosw


    sarumite wrote: »
    There can be some people who go at a slower pace to build up time. Its not common and really is the managements fault though I know from personal experience some people have that attitude. I worked with one guy who went to the gym after work and stayed back an extra hour twice a week before going but spent it reading the newspaper etc. Personally I think flexi time is a good idea and most progressive employers are adopting it, however it can (and does) get abused.


    This is pure conjecture...not a shred of evidence...usual old "friend of a friend","man down the pub" nonsense.


  • #1565
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 8,350 ✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    kceire wrote: »
    Its been in since im there in 2009, and the existing staff say they always had one per month too. And it has to be used that month, we cannot carry them forward or anything to the following month.

    That is still an extra 12 days pa, is it purely at the managers discretion ? Does it have to be justified in any way? Is your work assessed to ensure your not just spreading the same work load over a longer period of time?


  • #1566
    Gumbo
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 41,474 Mod ✭✭✭✭Gumbo


    jh79 wrote: »
    That is still an extra 12 days pa, is it purely at the managers discretion ? Does it have to be justified in any way? Is your work assessed to ensure your not just spreading the same work load over a longer period of time?

    We have deadlines that must be met.
    Theres no financial benefit to it.

    If im working on a project, and i stay back 2 hours to finish it, i can take those 2 hours off time in lieu when i have built up enough to meet one full day.
    If this option wasnt available to people, then im sure it will be a case of "sorry its 5pm, im off now", right or wrong as that may be. There has to be a reward to staying back and working OT, whether that be extra pay or time off in lieu of that work done.


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  • #1567
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 8,350 ✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    kceire wrote: »
    We have deadlines that must be met.

    Can the flexitime be approved without showing it is necessary to meet the deadline ?


  • #1568
    Chips Lovell
    Moderators, Politics Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 24,279 Mod ✭✭✭✭Chips Lovell


    AFAIK, it's not overtime, so no need for approval. More like saying that you need to work x amount of hours a month and you can do those hours in 19 days as opposed to 20.


  • #1569
    Rightwing
    Closed Accounts Posts: 8,101 ✭✭✭Rightwing


    jh79 wrote: »
    I know people who used it as way of gaining extra holidays. When did the one day a month restriction come in and how is it decide that the extra time is needed?

    I don't know of any private sector companies where you can get 1 day a week for 'working' extra. What a laughable concept.


  • #1570
    Uriel.
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,059 ✭✭✭Uriel.


    jh79 wrote: »

    That is still an extra 12 days pa, is it purely at the managers discretion ? Does it have to be justified in any way? Is your work assessed to ensure your not just spreading the same work load over a longer period of time?
    If I understand it its actually 1.5 days per four week period... You work the appropriate additional hours in that four week period and you can take a day and a half leave within the next four week period only. My understanding also is that it is not a right, but like the timing of any leave is at the discretion of management. Overall I have seen such systems work very well, to everyone's benefit in both public and private sectors. The issue is appropriate management of the system, which is a different argument to what some are suggesting. It's a good tool which introduces flexibility to the work place at a cost neutral basis.


  • #1571
    sarumite
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,909 ✭✭✭sarumite


    frankosw wrote: »
    This is pure conjecture...not a shred of evidence...usual old "friend of a friend","man down the pub" nonsense.

    Actually its not conjecture, its my personal experience. You can either take my word for it or not. I don't exactly know what kind of 'evidence' you would expect to be available in the public domain?


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  • #1572
    Riskymove
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,903 ✭✭✭✭Riskymove


    jh79 wrote: »
    That is still an extra 12 days pa,

    its not that simple; a person has still worked those 12 days by staying longer hours on some days in lieu of one day in the 4 week period

    the same amount of time is spent in the office

    there are advantages to both staff and employer from the system


  • #1573
    Chips Lovell
    Moderators, Politics Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 24,279 Mod ✭✭✭✭Chips Lovell


    Rightwing wrote: »
    I don't know of any private sector companies where you can get 1 day a week for 'working' extra. What a laughable concept.

    I work in the private sector and get days off in lieu for hours worked over and above regular hours. It's not that unusual at all.


  • #1574
    Uriel.
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,059 ✭✭✭Uriel.


    Rightwing wrote: »

    I don't know of any private sector companies where you can get 1 day a week for 'working' extra. What a laughable concept.
    I have worked for multinationals in the past which have offered such a system up to a 20 hour limit per month whereby additional hours worked in a month could be used for additional leave. After the 20hrs, hrs worked were paid overtime. All was subject to management and sanction


  • #1575
    Rightwing
    Closed Accounts Posts: 8,101 ✭✭✭Rightwing


    Vladimir Kurtains wrote: »
    I work in the private sector and get days off in lieu for hours worked over and above regular hours. It's not that unusual at all.

    But 1 day a month, every month, every year? Seems like they don't know what they're doing to me,,,,well they do. They are milking the system.


  • #1576
    Chips Lovell
    Moderators, Politics Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 24,279 Mod ✭✭✭✭Chips Lovell


    Rightwing wrote: »
    But 1 day a month, every month, every year? Seems like they don't know what they're doing to me,,,,well they do. They are milking the system.

    If you do the extra hours, how are you "milking the system". For what it's worth, I'm currently averaging two days in lieu a month.


  • #1577
    Uriel.
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,059 ✭✭✭Uriel.


    Rightwing wrote: »

    But 1 day a month, every month, every year? Seems like they don't know what they're doing to me,,,,well they do. They are milking the system.
    I don't think you understand the concept of a flexi working system at all


  • #1578
    frankosw
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 809 ✭✭✭frankosw


    Rightwing wrote: »
    But 1 day a month, every month, every year? Seems like they don't know what they're doing to me,,,,well they do. They are milking the system.

    What are you on about?


    Flexi time means you work extra time but get time off instead of extra wages..lots of private sector companies operate it,people doint get paid any extra for addiotional hourse so how is that "milkingthe system"?

    Is it also "milking the system" when Barmen are paid say til 1.30 am and because it was a quiet night they can clear up and be out of there by 1am?


  • #1579
    sean200
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 152 ✭✭sean200


    Vladimir Kurtains wrote: »
    I work in the private sector and get days off in lieu for hours worked over and above regular hours. It's not that unusual at all.

    It is illegal as you are getting people to do work that they should be getting paid for and be paying all the tax on


  • #1580
    Riskymove
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,903 ✭✭✭✭Riskymove


    sean200 wrote: »
    It is illegal

    No it isn't

    overtime can be paid in leave in lieu


  • #1581
    Godge
    Closed Accounts Posts: 21,727 ✭✭✭✭Godge


    Rightwing wrote: »
    I don't know of any private sector companies where you can get 1 day a week for 'working' extra. What a laughable concept.
    Rightwing wrote: »
    But 1 day a month, every month, every year? Seems like they don't know what they're doing to me,,,,well they do. They are milking the system.


    I have come across plenty of companies in both the private and public sector where these types of arrangements are common.

    They suit mostly administrative settings where the work is generally predictable but with peaks and troughs. Using flexitime to avoid paying expensive overtime is a measure that suits both management and employees. For example you will find that administrative and clerical staff in large accountancy or insurance firms will have access to a flexible working scheme.

    http://www.eurofound.europa.eu/ewco/2011/09/UK1109039I.htm

    This survey finds that 52% of UK employers offer flexitime arrangements. A very high number for a so-called laughable concept.

    Perhaps you could produce an equivalent employer survey which shows a different pattern?


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  • #1582
    sean200
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 152 ✭✭sean200


    http://www.rte.ie/news/2013/0218/368317-gra-members-to-withdraw-voluntary-services/
    as if anybody is going to listen to him


  • #1583
    Godge
    Closed Accounts Posts: 21,727 ✭✭✭✭Godge


    sean200 wrote: »
    It is illegal as you are getting people to do work that they should be getting paid for and be paying all the tax on


    Under which piece of employment legislation?

    The Industrial Relations Act? The Unfair Dismissals Act? The Redundancy Payments Act? The Minimum Wage Act? The Working Time Act? The Protection of Employees (Part-Time Act)? The Payment of Wages Act?

    Here is a link to the relevant government website which lists all of the rights and obligations of employees and employers with links to all of the relevant legislation. Maybe you could back up your point by quoting the relevant piece of information?

    http://www.workplacerelations.ie/en/information/


  • #1584
    Rightwing
    Closed Accounts Posts: 8,101 ✭✭✭Rightwing


    frankosw wrote: »
    What are you on about?


    Flexi time means you work extra time but get time off instead of extra wages..lots of private sector companies operate it,people doint get paid any extra for addiotional hourse so how is that "milkingthe system"?

    Is it also "milking the system" when Barmen are paid say til 1.30 am and because it was a quiet night they can clear up and be out of there by 1am?

    It's milking the system, because there can't be extra work all the time. My belief is the councils are completely over staffed. Seems like we'll clock in early there and bag a few extra hours. Getting rid of this and the few days off for the horse meetings, that's what CP 2 should be about.


  • #1585
    Gumbo
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 41,474 Mod ✭✭✭✭Gumbo


    Uriel. wrote: »
    I don't think you understand the concept of a flexi working system at all

    When he leaves the education system and enters the workforce he will understand ;)


  • #1586
    Chips Lovell
    Moderators, Politics Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 24,279 Mod ✭✭✭✭Chips Lovell


    Rightwing wrote: »
    It's milking the system, because there can't be extra work all the time. My belief is the councils are completely over staffed. Seems like we'll clock in early there and bag a few extra hours. Getting rid of this and the few days off for the horse meetings, that's what CP 2 should be about.

    I don't think you understand flexible working time systems. Nobody's doing extra work.


  • #1587
    Godge
    Closed Accounts Posts: 21,727 ✭✭✭✭Godge


    Rightwing wrote: »
    It's milking the system, because there can't be extra work all the time. .

    Have you any statistic that shows how many staff avail of their flexitime leave every month?
    Have you any statistic that shows the peaks and troughs of work in the councils?
    Rightwing wrote: »
    My belief is the councils are completely over staffed. .

    And your belief is based on what?

    Most councils have seen reductions of over 10% in staffing levels since 2008. You are seeing the effects in reducing opening times for libraries and municipal waste (dumps).

    Have you taken into account these decreases and what level would you suggest is appropriate? How much of your easily-achieved €1 bn would you expect to save with this measure?
    Rightwing wrote: »
    Seems like we'll clock in early there and bag a few extra hours. .

    Is this just plain public-sector bashing or have you something to back it up?

    Rightwing wrote: »
    Getting rid of this and the few days off for the horse meetings, that's what CP 2 should be about.


    The few days off for the Galway races or Punchestown or Rose of Tralee have all been taken away already as part of Croke Park 1. Did you miss that?


  • #1588
    Gumbo
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 41,474 Mod ✭✭✭✭Gumbo


    Rightwing wrote: »
    It's milking the system, because there can't be extra work all the time. My belief is the councils are completely over staffed. Seems like we'll clock in early there and bag a few extra hours. Getting rid of this and the few days off for the horse meetings, that's what CP 2 should be about.

    Any chance of posting that plan to cut 1bn from the LA budget.
    Sounds to me your one off house got refused for permission may e and that's where your gripe is.


  • #1589
    Rightwing
    Closed Accounts Posts: 8,101 ✭✭✭Rightwing


    Godge wrote: »
    Have you any statistic that shows how many staff avail of their flexitime leave every month?
    Have you any statistic that shows the peaks and troughs of work in the councils?



    And your belief is based on what?

    Most councils have seen reductions of over 10% in staffing levels since 2008. You are seeing the effects in reducing opening times for libraries and municipal waste (dumps).

    Have you taken into account these decreases and what level would you suggest is appropriate? How much of your easily-achieved €1 bn would you expect to save with this measure?



    Is this just plain public-sector bashing or have you something to back it up?





    The few days off for the Galway races or Punchestown or Rose of Tralee have all been taken away already as part of Croke Park 1. Did you miss that?



    That's 1 positive step, let's hope it doesn't take 100 Croke Parks to get rid of all the other inefficiencies.


  • #1590
    Gumbo
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 41,474 Mod ✭✭✭✭Gumbo


    Rightwing wrote: »
    That's 1 positive step, let's hope it doesn't take 100 Croke Parks to get rid of all the other inefficiencies.

    Again, can you post you plan to cut 1bn from the LA budget please as you have been asked about 358 times at this stage. Thanks.


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  • #1591
    Godge
    Closed Accounts Posts: 21,727 ✭✭✭✭Godge


    Rightwing wrote: »
    That's 1 positive step, let's hope it doesn't take 100 Croke Parks to get rid of all the other inefficiencies.

    What other inefficiencies? for the last time, will you provide some evidence to back up your statements?


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