Croke Park II preliminary Talks started today

wexfordman · 18-02-2013 12:36PM

not yet wrote: »

Do people really know how much the PS do in this country, The wage bill has decreased by approx 3 billion in the past 4 years and still people pontificate about the allowances and golden fcuking pensions.

Someone who has worked 40 years in the PS gets on average 400e per week as a pension, now I can hear the same old sh1te from the same old bunch about being a great pension, and yes it is ok, but for that they will have paid contributions for 40 years for that same pension.........

Now here comes the part most people choose to ignore, yes I said ''choose'' simply because if it does not fit the agenda of some people they ''choose'' to ignore it

The same person who worked for 40 years will be means tested for the state pension, this same pension is paid to someone who would never have worked a day in their life, yet someone who pays taxes all their life will only get approx 80e of this. So the real value of their golden pension is really 400 less the 146e they lose in state pension = 256e. interesting eh.............

Correct me if im wrong, but they get 50% of final salary, with % increase based on the salary of those remaining, plus 150% lump sum payment tax free ?

So that would mean the person was earning 800pw, or 41k, giving them a 60k lump sum plus 50% salary.

not bad at all!

Godge · 18-02-2013 12:38PM

Rightwing wrote: »

It should be very easy to find €1bln. This could be got from councils alone.

This is an idiotic post.

http://www.environ.ie/en/LocalGovernment/LocalGovernmentAdministration/LocalGovernmentFinance/

Given that the total budget for the local government fund general purpose grant was €651m, how can you find savings of €1 bn for the taxpayer????

Godge · 18-02-2013 12:45PM

gazzer wrote: »

Im a bit perplexed by the articles I have been reading about increasing public sector workers hours to make savings. How will it make savings?

I know for instance in my department staff already work above and beyond their rostered hours. It would be normal to do a 8.30am to 6.30 day in my area (with a half hour for lunch) Monday to Friday. We can work up 11 hours flexi each month which is great but a lot of staff work up hours beyond that every month and they lose that time. So all that is going to happen now is that staff will continue to work above and beyond their rostered hours. Where is the saving going to be?????

The thinking behind it probably goes something like this (note figures all made up).

Example 1: Department of Environment has 40 clerical officers working 35 hours giving a total working time of 1400 hours per week.

Increase working hours to 40. Department only needs 35 clercial officers to deliver the same 1400 hours. Saving of the salary of 5 clerical officers.

Example 2: The Department has 35 clerical officers working 35 hours giving a total working time of 1225 hours. Given it needs 1400 hours, 175 hours are worked as overtime.

Increasing working hours to 40 eliminates overtime making a saving.

The savings in example 2 are greater but either way there are savings.

Head The Wall · 18-02-2013 12:48PM

Does that figure include wage costs for the council employees?

Head The Wall · 18-02-2013 12:49PM

Godge wrote: »

The thinking behind it probably goes something like this (note figures all made up).

Example 1: Department of Environment has 40 clerical officers working 35 hours giving a total working time of 1400 hours per week.

Increase working hours to 40. Department only needs 35 clercial officers to deliver the same 1400 hours. Saving of the salary of 5 clerical officers.

Example 2: The Department has 35 clerical officers working 35 hours giving a total working time of 1225 hours. Given it needs 1400 hours, 175 hours are worked as overtime.

Increasing working hours to 40 eliminates overtime making a saving.

The savings in example 2 are greater but either way there are savings.

They only really make savings if they get rid of the excess staff which CPA doesn't allow

Gumbo · 18-02-2013 12:51PM

Head The Wall wrote: »

Does that figure include wage costs for the council employees?

I wouldn't imagine so, and neither do you I would think.
The average salary in councils is 39k based in the latest reports from the government.

Godge · 18-02-2013 12:53PM

Head The Wall wrote: »

They only really make savings if they get rid of the excess staff which CPA doesn't allow

CPA doesn't allow compulsory redundancy. If the redeployment and voluntary redundancy arrangements work well enough to allow for the decrease in staff numbers as I have outlined, well then compulsory redundancy is not needed.

As the evidence has shown that the public service has hit every job target without needing compulsory redundancy, I would need a lot of convincing (with hard financial evidence) that compulsory redundancy is needed for Croke Park 2. It is one thing for keyboard warriors to demand compulsory redundancies and 50% pay cuts, it is a different thing for them to justify that these are necessary.

Rightwing · 18-02-2013 12:55PM

Head The Wall wrote: »

Does that figure include wage costs for the council employees?

Exactly, look at this waste I see in today's paper:

Figures to be presented at Clare Council's February meeting later today will confirm that the council last year spent €688,830 (inclusive of VAT) on legal fees.

No wonder we are bust.

Godge · 18-02-2013 12:56PM

Head The Wall wrote: »

Does that figure include wage costs for the council employees?

kceire wrote: »

I wouldn't imagine so, and neither do you I would think.
The average salary in councils is 39k based in the latest reports from the government.

The figure is the central government grant to local authorities.

The rest of local authority funding comes from local charges such as rates, planning fees etc.

When posters say that you can save a €1 bn from councils alone by waving a magic wand of some kind, they should at least be familiar with the level of funding that is coming from central government. For example, the total budget of the Department of Environment and Local Government is only €1.3 bn.

wexfordman · 18-02-2013 12:57PM

Godge wrote: »

CPA doesn't allow compulsory redundancy. If the redeployment and voluntary redundancy arrangements work well enough to allow for the decrease in staff numbers as I have outlined, well then compulsory redundancy is not needed.

As the evidence has shown that the public service has hit every job target without needing compulsory redundancy, I would need a lot of convincing (with hard financial evidence) that compulsory redundancy is needed for Croke Park 2. It is one thing for keyboard warriors to demand compulsory redundancies and 50% pay cuts, it is a different thing for them to justify that these are necessary.

There have been attempts to reduce headcount, which in iteself is evidence that there is room for staff reductions.

Leaving the planning of this reduction of headcount to the whims of the employees does not allow for a controlled reduction, more like a chaotic finger in the air, type attempt.

If reductions in headcount are required, it should be the employer that decides inthe end where these are, and this can only be done with an element of compulsary redundancy

Godge · 18-02-2013 12:59PM

Rightwing wrote: »

Exactly, look at this waste I see in today's paper:

Figures to be presented at Clare Council's February meeting later today will confirm that the council last year spent €688,830 (inclusive of VAT) on legal fees.

No wonder we are bust.

Depending on the number of legal cases they were involved in, that could be very good value. If they saved €1m in potential compensation claims, for example, it was money well spent.

Rather than pick a random figure out of a local newspaper, maybe you could justify your random musings with some real evidence.

Scofflaw · 18-02-2013 01:00PM

Can we cut back a bit on the handbagging, please? I don't want to have to throw anyone off the thread, but there's too much personal sniping going on, and even those posting substantive comments are occasionally throwing in little snipes as well.

moderately,
Scofflaw

Godge · 18-02-2013 01:01PM

wexfordman wrote: »

There have been attempts to reduce headcount, which in iteself is evidence that there is room for staff reductions.

Leaving the planning of this reduction of headcount to the whims of the employees does not allow for a controlled reduction, more like a chaotic finger in the air, type attempt.

If reductions in headcount are required, it should be the employer that decides inthe end where these are, and this can only be done with an element of compulsary redundancy

Rubbish, where do I say leaving it the whims of the employees. There is natural wastage and voluntary redundancy exits. There is redeployment by management of surplus staff determined as surplus by management to fill necessary gaps deemed as necessary by management. It appears to have worked to date according to all reports of the Croke Park Implementation Body.

How do you know it won't work well in the future?

Head The Wall · 18-02-2013 01:01PM

Godge wrote: »

CPA doesn't allow compulsory redundancy. If the redeployment and voluntary redundancy arrangements work well enough to allow for the decrease in staff numbers as I have outlined, well then compulsory redundancy is not needed.

As the evidence has shown that the public service has hit every job target without needing compulsory redundancy, I would need a lot of convincing (with hard financial evidence) that compulsory redundancy is needed for Croke Park 2. It is one thing for keyboard warriors to demand compulsory redundancies and 50% pay cuts, it is a different thing for them to justify that these are necessary.

The ex HR head of the Hse said he had 1,000 more staff than he reckoned he needed, where have they been redeployed to or are they still there?

Rightwing · 18-02-2013 01:03PM

Godge wrote: »

Depending on the number of legal cases they were involved in, that could be very good value. If they saved €1m in potential compensation claims, for example, it was money well spent.

Rather than pick a random figure out of a local newspaper, maybe you could justify your random musings with some real evidence.

That's in today's Independent.

I would slash county council numbers by 50%, and they'd still be over staffed. They could still earn flexi-time. That's where the waste is. Council managers earning far more than the Spanish prime minister. You couldn't make it up.

K-9 · 18-02-2013 01:06PM

Just a reminder yet again that this thread is about the Croke Park II talks, it isn't a thread to air "what I'd like to see happen" like privatising the police force, or a thread to post general gripes or news about the public service. There are other threads for that or you can start a new one.

Keep it realistic and don't go into soapboxing issues and we'll be fine.

Paulzx · 18-02-2013 01:20PM

Rightwing wrote: »

.
You couldn't make it up.

:D:D

In fairness it doesn't seem to be a problem for you.

Ok...you've told us how you'll save 600 grand in legal fees by abolishing a Co. Co getting legal advice.

Just run past me how you'll cut the rest of the billion you reckon you can cut from local authorities.

Remember now......the largest local authority in Ireland has a total budget of approx 800million.

You're going to save us a billion.........it's your figure..........show us how it's done

Paulzx · 18-02-2013 01:22PM

Rightwing wrote: »

That's in today's Independent.

I would slash county council numbers by 50%,

Where?
Who?
What Co Councils?
What departments?
How much will it save?
What functions?

Rightwing · 18-02-2013 01:27PM

Paulzx wrote: »

Where?
Who?
What Co Councils?
What departments?
How much will it save?
What functions?

On a different thread I will gladly show you. But this is a tangent, so stick to topic in hand, Croke Park 2 talks.

The government need to get tough with the unions, particularly where there is most waste. Flexidays should be an instant red flag for them.

Paulzx · 18-02-2013 01:42PM

Rightwing wrote: »

On a different thread I will gladly show you. But this is a tangent, so stick to topic in hand, Croke Park 2 talks.

.

In other words you haven't a breeze.

Every now and then we get new posters popping up here who continuously spout ridiculous dogma (both pro and anti public sector).

It's always repetative and not backed up.

You are just the latest in a long line

Rightwing · 18-02-2013 02:13PM

Paulzx wrote: »

In other words you haven't a breeze.

Every now and then we get new posters popping up here who continuously spout ridiculous dogma (both pro and anti public sector).

It's always repetative and not backed up.

You are just the latest in a long line

You miss the point unfortunately

Not anti public sector, I'm anti waste. That what these talks should be focusing on. Most people have great time for the work frontline staff like nurses do.

Godge · 18-02-2013 02:39PM

Head The Wall wrote: »

The ex HR head of the Hse said he had 1,000 more staff than he reckoned he needed, where have they been redeployed to or are they still there?

Well seeing as he is the ex HR head, I assume his figure is now only 999?:D:D:D

Godge · 18-02-2013 02:42PM

Rightwing wrote: »

On a different thread I will gladly show you. But this is a tangent, so stick to topic in hand, Croke Park 2 talks.

The government need to get tough with the unions, particularly where there is most waste. Flexidays should be an instant red flag for them.

Rightwing wrote: »

You miss the point unfortunately

Not anti public sector, I'm anti waste. That what these talks should be focusing on. Most people have great time for the work frontline staff like nurses do.

Explain to me how flexidays are a waste. As I understand it, workers can work extra hours in weeks of high demand and get compensatory time off in weeks of low demand. Surely this saves on overtime?

TOIL is a well-known concept in IR and terms and conditions across both the private and public sectors, flexidays are a variation of this, why are they a red flag and how will getting rid of them eliminate waste?

18-02-2013 02:46PM

Godge wrote: »

Explain to me how flexidays are a waste. As I understand it, workers can work extra hours in weeks of high demand and get compensatory time off in weeks of low demand. Surely this saves on overtime?

TOIL is a well-known concept in IR and terms and conditions across both the private and public sectors, flexidays are a variation of this, why are they a red flag and how will getting rid of them eliminate waste?

I don't think it's the concept of flexidays that's the problem it's the abuse of it as a means of building up extra days off.

Godge · 18-02-2013 02:57PM

jh79 wrote: »

I don't think it's the concept of flexidays that's the problem it's the abuse of it as a means of building up extra days off.

That requires better regulation of flexidays and better management by local managers which is a different issue to the abolition of flexidays as proposed by rightwing and others.

deise blue · 18-02-2013 03:18PM

Rightwing wrote: »

On a different thread I will gladly show you. But this is a tangent, so stick to topic in hand, Croke Park 2 talks.

The government need to get tough with the unions, particularly where there is most waste. Flexidays should be an instant red flag for them.

Can I suggest that you open an new thread dealing forensically with your ideas as to how to save 1 billion euro from County Councils alone ?

As you are the poster with the ideas you would obviously be the ideal candidate to open what should be a hugely illuminating thread which I for one await with bated breath !

Gumbo · 18-02-2013 03:19PM

jh79 wrote: »

I don't think it's the concept of flexidays that's the problem it's the abuse of it as a means of building up extra days off.

How is it abused?
We can only build up one day per month, theres no way around that.

Rightwing wrote: »

On a different thread I will gladly show you. But this is a tangent, so stick to topic in hand, Croke Park 2 talks.

I wouldnt mind hearing how you can do that?
Considering the largest council in the country only gets just over a €67M in funding from the LGF.

Paulzx · 18-02-2013 03:37PM

Rightwing wrote: »

You miss the point unfortunately

Not anti public sector, I'm anti waste. That what these talks should be focusing on. Most people have great time for the work frontline staff like nurses do.

We're all anti waste. But no one else has made the unbelievable claim that they can save one billion from local authorities alone.

After making a spurious claim like that you need to provide detail................unless of course you are happy not to be taken seriously:)

sarumite · 18-02-2013 03:39PM

kceire wrote: »

How is it abused?
We can only build up one day per month, theres no way around that.

There can be some people who go at a slower pace to build up time. Its not common and really is the managements fault though I know from personal experience some people have that attitude. I worked with one guy who went to the gym after work and stayed back an extra hour twice a week before going but spent it reading the newspaper etc. Personally I think flexi time is a good idea and most progressive employers are adopting it, however it can (and does) get abused.

kippy · 18-02-2013 03:43PM

sarumite wrote: »

There can be some people who go at a slower pace to build up time. Its not common and really is the managements fault though I know from personal experience some people have that attitude. I worked with one guy who went to the gym after work and stayed back an extra hour twice a week before going but spent it reading the newspaper etc. Personally I think flexi time is a good idea and most progressive employers are adopting it, however it can (and does) get abused.

Totally agree,
And in this instance, as with any major issues in the public service the management need to ensure it isn't abused however it's rather difficult in an organisation where it is so difficult to "manage".

The issues with productivity and taking the p155 out of workplace tools such as flexi are generally around the complete lack of ability at management level to manage, and the complete lack of tools available to those that are able to manage.

Croke Park II preliminary Talks started today

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