Exclusion of Sex Workers from Justice Committee

starlings · 18-02-2013 03:05PM

Sin City wrote: »

Do you think nurses do the things they do for free?
Of course its to make money, doesnt make her or anyone else a bad person does it?

In fairness, nurses don't play the Queen of Hearts card. Nor do they go on about the oldest profession in the world, though I'd say medicine is as old as prostitution.

Grayson · 18-02-2013 03:11PM

starlings wrote: »

In fairness, nurses don't play the Queen of Hearts card. Nor do they go on about the oldest profession in the world, though I'd say medicine is as old as prostitution.

But nurses don't have to defend their jobs and they use the florence nightingale card when it suits.
they also have a large union.

Sin City · 18-02-2013 03:12PM

starlings wrote: »

In fairness, nurses don't play the Queen of Hearts card. Nor do they go on about the oldest profession in the world, though I'd say medicine is as old as prostitution.

True but surely people aren't that naieve that they belive what they are paying to hear

CK73 · 18-02-2013 03:15PM

Czarcasm wrote: »

Just to pass quick comment on this before I go back and address some of the other points made.

You're not a charity so stop it with the emotive nonsense, you're a business, in the business of making money off other people's insecurities. You don't provide your "intimacy" services free of charge. You do not provide counselling services, nor does your chosen career qualify you to do so in any manner even close to a professional capacity.

You really do have a negative mind don't you. Counsellors are not a charity, but they help people sort things out in their head. You don't actually have to be qualified to be a counsellor or a consultant for that matter.

You know what my degree is in? How very clever of you, having never met or discussed former qualifications.

I was trying to show that there is a need and a greater purpose to my job, but of course you are a linear thinker and can only see the word 'sex' when you think of an Escort. Forget all the other ramifications that come with it and how it can and does enhance life.

I certainly am not trying to justify my work to you, as I see you as a lost cause, but there are others out there that have not considered what is involved or who benefits, who are more open minded and it is to them, that I am reaching out. Please feel free to ignore my posts, as I feel you have nothing to benefit from the truth.

Also who says these people are insecure? Shy, lack confidence, too busy to form relationships due to being career minded, in loveless relationships, illness, deformity perhaps, but insecurity?

If anyone calls to book me and isn't sure of what they are doing, I never push it. I tell them to think carefully about what they are doing and if it is the right thing for them. The last thing I want is to push someone into making the wrong decision. It has to be 100% what they want to do.

starlings · 18-02-2013 03:16PM

Grayson wrote: »

But nurses don't have to defend their jobs and they use the florence nightingale card when it suits.
they also have a large union.

True, I just think this points to a job that society considers vital and is willing to support.

starlings · 18-02-2013 03:17PM

Sin City wrote: »

True but surely people aren't that naieve that they belive what they are paying to hear

Well if I paid for reassurance, I'd be fairly naive wouldn't I?

Sin City · 18-02-2013 03:32PM

starlings wrote: »

Well if I paid for reassurance, I'd be fairly naive wouldn't I?

All I am saying is people have an idea that what happens in this situation is not real life , its a fantasy played out for the time paid for. real but still a fantasy.

If there was a way for Game Over to appear after the time runs out Im sure the ladies would display it

Czarcasm · 18-02-2013 03:33PM

CK73 wrote: »

Would it shock you to learn that I already hold a degree and higher qualification? That I chose to change my career, because my previous career was not working for me and I want to re-train in another direction. Escorting enables me to continue paying my bills and pay for the re-training and it was a well thought out decision, based on the knowledge that I had experience with Swinging and felt I would do well with the skill base I have.

If I enjoy (which most of the time I do) the work I do and it is discrete and between two consenting adults, what is the problem?

It's so easy to manipulate what I am doing and to say that I am selling myself? Utter crap! I enjoy meeting people, I spend time with them, we talk, laugh and enjoy a level of intimacy that varies, but always on my terms. I choose who I meet, how long we meet and yes I get paid. It's very little different to what I was doing before as a Swinger, but now I get paid! If I meet someone I don't like I can ask them to leave or I simply don't see them again. It is very rare though, as most people are nice and good company.

Sorry to burst your bubble, but it really can be a great option to being in a job that you don't enjoy and yes the pay is good.

It wouldn't shock me at all tbh as it's quite common for students to finance their further education by becoming sex workers. I did the same myself as a male escort so you're not bursting any bubbles here. It can of course be a great job, but is it a job suitable for everybody? Like hell it is!

I've met many highly intelligent and articulate sex workers and am still friends with many of them who have chosen to stay in the industry, some of whom have even gone on to work in the adult entertainment industry because for them they saw it as a better career move.

The flipside of that is that I've also met people who wouldn't be considered sex workers as a profession, but would still try and convince you down a back alley for a €10 hand job. I've also met many who advertise discreetly and independently on sites like facebook, tagged and gumtree. In my work with young people and low income families from disadvantaged backgrounds I've met young people (as in under the age of consent) who have performed sexual favors for money so they can buy phone credit.

The point is that I could spit anecdotal stories here all day, but what it comes down to is that for every one intelligent, articulate and mature sex worker such as yourself, I can show you ten more people who thought it was a good idea at the time, but for whom it has all gone horribly wrong.

The same with your select clientelle- every one you show me, I'll show you ten examples of the kind of person that has ruined the life of another for nothing more their own sexual gratification.

If you REALLY want to help other people to feel good as you claim you do, by all means PM me, because I sure as hell have a pain in my face trying to get through to young people who look up to the likes of anecdotal success stories such as your own and the likes of one off success stories in the adult entertainment industry.

Czarcasm · 18-02-2013 03:44PM

Sin City wrote: »

Do you think nurses do the things they do for free?
Of course its to make money, doesnt make her or anyone else a bad person does it?

Eh? Point out to me where I said anyone's profession made them a bad person? It's ok, I know already that you can't. What I did say though was that trying to pass one's main motivation off for what they do as caring for other people is a joke when they charge for what they do! The person said it themselves that they still enjoy what they do, only now they get paid for it. I have no problem with anyone getting paid for what they do, as long as they are not exploited, and as long as they don't try to pass it off as their main motivation being to help people.

I am self employed and I like to help people too, but the end of the day the success of my business depends on me making a profit from what I do. In my spare time then I give my time voluntarily to help others less fortunate than myself and I don't expect any financial remuneration for it. This is genuinely helping others, not trying to pass it off as one hand round their shoulder and one hand in their wallet.

Sin City · 18-02-2013 03:45PM

Czarcasm wrote: »

It wouldn't shock me at all tbh as it's quite common for students to finance their further education by becoming sex workers. I did the same myself as a male escort so you're not bursting any bubbles here. It can of course be a great job, but is it a job suitable for everybody? Like hell it is!

I've met many highly intelligent and articulate sex workers and am still friends with many of them who have chosen to stay in the industry, some of whom have even gone on to work in the adult entertainment industry because for them they saw it as a better career move.

The flipside of that is that I've also met people who wouldn't be considered sex workers as a profession, but would still try and convince you down a back alley for a €10 hand job. I've also met many who advertise discreetly and independently on sites like facebook, tagged and gumtree. In my work with young people and low income families from disadvantaged backgrounds I've met young people (as in under the age of consent) who have performed sexual favors for money so they can buy phone credit.

The point is that I could spit anecdotal stories here all day, but what it comes down to is that for every one intelligent, articulate and mature sex worker such as yourself, I can show you ten more people who thought it was a good idea at the time, but for whom it has all gone horribly wrong.

The same with your select clientelle- every one you show me, I'll show you ten examples of the kind of person that has ruined the life of another for nothing more their own sexual gratification.

If you REALLY want to help other people to feel good as you claim you do, by all means PM me, because I sure as hell have a pain in my face trying to get through to young people who look up to the likes of anecdotal success stories such as your own and the likes of one off success stories in the adult entertainment industry.

Unfortunaly there is a flip side to most things, I mean the same can be said for booze, most people are fine with it then there are the majority who have a problem with it and wished they were no longer on it as it ruined their lives.

Now I know this isnt a strong compariosn in relation to under age prostitution but still makes a point.

Its like saying all men who use escorts are abusive people who have no respect, thats not 200 % factual though is it ?

Wouldnt it be better to have support structures in place to deal with those who have falle through the cracks? Surely the leagilisation and regualtion of prostitution could help. There is always going to be a flip side though.

CK73 · 18-02-2013 03:47PM

Czarcasm wrote: »

It wouldn't shock me at all tbh as it's quite common for students to finance their further education by becoming sex workers. I did the same myself as a male escort so you're not bursting any bubbles here. It can of course be a great job, but is it a job suitable for everybody? Like hell it is!

I've met many highly intelligent and articulate sex workers and am still friends with many of them who have chosen to stay in the industry, some of whom have even gone on to work in the adult entertainment industry because for them they saw it as a better career move.

The flipside of that is that I've also met people who wouldn't be considered sex workers as a profession, but would still try and convince you down a back alley for a €10 hand job. I've also met many who advertise discreetly and independently on sites like facebook, tagged and gumtree. In my work with young people and low income families from disadvantaged backgrounds I've met young people (as in under the age of consent) who have performed sexual favors for money so they can buy phone credit.

The point is that I could spit anecdotal stories here all day, but what it comes down to is that for every one intelligent, articulate and mature sex worker such as yourself, I can show you ten more people who thought it was a good idea at the time, but for whom it has all gone horribly wrong.

The same with your select clientelle- every one you show me, I'll show you ten examples of the kind of person that has ruined the life of another for nothing more their own sexual gratification.

If you REALLY want to help other people to feel good as you claim you do, by all means PM me, because I sure as hell have a pain in my face trying to get through to young people who look up to the likes of anecdotal success stories such as your own and the likes of one off success stories in the adult entertainment industry.

Interesting post and by far the best you have written so far on this thread (in my opinion).

I would like to address your last paragraph. Where are they getting this idea about success stories? It's not from me, as I have never professed to be one. I work within my boundaries and for my own means and having not managed in my former career due to family circumstances, it was not a career choice I came to until later in life.

Being mature, means that I know myself very well, I know how to handle people and I know my limits. It's taken me years to get to this point and I certainly would not recommend this career to anyone, as it does take a certain kind of person to be able to detach emotion and stand firm on boundaries etc. Having said that, there are some young people who are way more streetwise than me and wold likely run rings around me if they had to.

You could argue this point with any job. Such as joining the Army, being a Nurse, being a Doctor, Pilot, Builder. All of these jobs take the right kind of person and can not be recommended to one and all. If you are in the Police, Army or Fireman you could face dying in your job, so much more dangerous and don't tell me there are not any damaged soldiers who have served their time in a war situation?

Sin City · 18-02-2013 03:49PM

Czarcasm wrote: »

Eh? Point out to me where I said anyone's profession made them a bad person? It's ok, I know already that you can't. What I did say though was that trying to pass one's main motivation off for what they do as caring for other people is a joke when they charge for what they do! The person said it themselves that they still enjoy what they do, only now they get paid for it. I have no problem with anyone getting paid for what they do, as long as they are not exploited, and as long as they don't try to pass it off as their main motivation being to help people.

I am self employed and I like to help people too, but the end of the day the success of my business depends on me making a profit from what I do. In my spare time then I give my time voluntarily to help others less fortunate than myself and I don't expect any financial remuneration for it. This is genuinely helping others, not trying to pass it off as one hand round their shoulder and one hand in their wallet.

Well fair play to you for donating your time to charity.
So again a nurse or a carer is being deceitful when they take care of patients as they too charging for their services.

How about doctors who will place a patient who needs an operation asap down at the bottom of the waiting list as they have no health insurence, surely they would be worse than an escort boosting someones ego for a fee

Mr. Loverman · 18-02-2013 03:49PM

I'm so happy to see this thread. About 6 years ago I tried pointing out how ****ed Ruhama are, etc., and nearly everyone thought I was lying or called me a pimp or whatever.

Great to see people are finally accepting Ruhama are not the unbiased, independent body they claim to be.

Edit before anyone asks: different username.

CK73 · 18-02-2013 03:50PM

Czarcasm wrote: »

Eh? Point out to me where I said anyone's profession made them a bad person? It's ok, I know already that you can't. What I did say though was that trying to pass one's main motivation off for what they do as caring for other people is a joke when they charge for what they do! The person said it themselves that they still enjoy what they do, only now they get paid for it. I have no problem with anyone getting paid for what they do, as long as they are not exploited, and as long as they don't try to pass it off as their main motivation being to help people.

I am self employed and I like to help people too, but the end of the day the success of my business depends on me making a profit from what I do. In my spare time then I give my time voluntarily to help others less fortunate than myself and I don't expect any financial remuneration for it. This is genuinely helping others, not trying to pass it off as one hand round their shoulder and one hand in their wallet.

Twist, twist, twist... where did I say it was my main motivation? Merely one of my qualities that often gets used within my work.

Czarcasm · 18-02-2013 04:43PM

CK73 wrote: »

You really do have a negative mind don't you. Counsellors are not a charity, but they help people sort things out in their head. You don't actually have to be qualified to be a counsellor or a consultant for that matter.

Having never met me either, you have discerned from my posts that I have a negative mind? I can reassure you I'm a very positive individual who likes to inspire others to fulfill their potential as human beings and I will often go out of my way to do so. Counsellors are not a charity, but they don't try to paint their profession as all smelling of roses and love either. They are at least up front and honest about the fact that they will charge you a premium for their services.

You know what my degree is in? How very clever of you, having never met or discussed former qualifications.

I don't know what your degree is in, but is it too much to ask for a degree of common sense regarding the issue?

I was trying to show that there is a need and a greater purpose to my job, but of course you are a linear thinker and can only see the word 'sex' when you think of an Escort. Forget all the other ramifications that come with it and how it can and does enhance life.

I hope by now you can acknowledge just how wrong you are.

I certainly am not trying to justify my work to you, as I see you as a lost cause, but there are others out there that have not considered what is involved or who benefits, who are more open minded and it is to them, that I am reaching out. Please feel free to ignore my posts, as I feel you have nothing to benefit from the truth.

Wrong again. I don't see a need to ignore your posts either. I wouldn't do that to anybody unless I felt they were completely incapable of looking at an issue from ALL perspectives and not just their own closed minded perspective. Yes, that's right, I used a phrase I hate to demonstrate that such phrases as open/closed minded are completely redundant, and that it is merely a matter of one's individual perspective on one particular issue. I like to listen to all perspectives in a discussion so I can gain a better understanding of where a person is coming from and why they hold the opinions they do. It doesn't have to mean we all have to agree with fabr other, and chances are on this issue- we won't.

Also who says these people are insecure? Shy, lack confidence, too busy to form relationships due to being career minded, in loveless relationships, illness, deformity perhaps, but insecurity?

Are shyness and a lack of confidence not borne of insecurity? Too busy to form relationships and being career minded should seek career/life balance rather than the quick and easy fix. Get out of a loveless relationship rather than learn to equate financial remuneration with the false pretence provided by your services (but I suppose regular customers are the bread and butter of your business!). Illness and deformity? I have a deformity but I never let it stop me from finding someone who loves me unconditionally without me having to pay for the privilege of a pretend relationship. Still think you're "helping" people by indulging their fantasies and charging a premium for the privilege? Would it not be in their better interest for you to encourage them to put themselves out there and meet people who won't charge them for their company? Oh right- it wouldn't be in YOUR best interests, because you'd suffer a reduction in YOUR regular income.

If anyone calls to book me and isn't sure of what they are doing, I never push it. I tell them to think carefully about what they are doing and if it is the right thing for them. The last thing I want is to push someone into making the wrong decision. It has to be 100% what they want to do.

I imagine you wouldn't actively discourage anyone from availing of your services either as long as they have the money to pay for them. You say you wouldn't encourage anyone to do anything if they weren't sure about it, yet here you are painting a picture of how "great" a career being a sex worker is, that anyone reading your posts who might be unsure about entering the sex worker industry might think "well it doesn't sound so bad at all at all, I think I can do it and I think I can be as successful as her". You really need to think before you post about what kind of an influence your painting a perfect picture of sex work can have on the mind of a mentally vulnerable person, a person who lacks your intellect and intelligence. Sex work works for you, but like I said- it isn't a career for everybody, and should never be promoted as such.

Seachmall · 18-02-2013 05:06PM

Czarcasm wrote: »

You say you wouldn't encourage anyone to do anything if they weren't sure about it, yet here you are painting a picture of how "great" a career being a soldier is, that anyone reading your posts who might be unsure about entering the army might think "well it doesn't sound so bad at all at all, I think I can do it and I think I can be as successful as her". You really need to think before you post about what kind of an influence your painting a perfect picture of army life can have on the mind of a mentally vulnerable person, a person who lacks your intellect and intelligence. Army life works for you, but like I said- it isn't a career for everybody, and should never be promoted as such.

I've substituted "sex worker" with army related terms. You'll notice it uses the exact same logic to attack anyone who talks positively about their experiences in the military.

So, are you against soldiers discussing their experiences?

If not, can you provide a clear distinction as to why one is right and why one is wrong?

Czarcasm · 18-02-2013 05:27PM

Seachmall wrote: »

I've substituted "sex worker" with army related terms. You'll notice it uses the exact same logic to attack anyone who talks positively about their experiences in the military.

So, are you against soldiers discussing their experiences?

If not, can you provide a clear distinction as to why one is right and why one is wrong?

I've already stated that I would encourage a discussion on ALL aspects of the issue at hand, but what has been happening in this thread so far is that most posters are unwilling to acknowledge the negative aspects of working in the sex industry.

In ANY career there are positive and negative aspects, but sex work is not a career that any young person in my opinion should aspire to. That's why you won't see "sex worker" on the CAO application forms any time soon, because anybody can do it. It requires no specialist skills whatsoever. I'm honestly struggling to come up with any other positive besides the financial remuneration, which as I've already pointed out, 99 times out of 100 isn't very rewarding for sex workers.

Sin City · 18-02-2013 05:31PM

Czarcasm wrote: »

I've already stated that I would encourage a discussion on ALL aspects of the issue at hand, but what has been happening in this thread so far is that most posters are unwilling to acknowledge the negative aspects of working in the sex industry.

In ANY career there are positive and negative aspects, but sex work is not a career that any young person in my opinion should aspire to. That's why you won't see "sex worker" on the CAO application forms any time soon, because anybody can do it. It requires no specialist skills whatsoever. I'm honestly struggling to come up with any other positive besides the financial remuneration, which as I've already pointed out, 99 times out of 100 isn't very rewarding for sex workers.

You wont see janitor cleaner bin man or postman in the CAO application forms either

Seachmall · 18-02-2013 05:36PM

Czarcasm wrote: »

but sex work is not a career that any young person in my opinion should aspire to.

And this what I'm interested in. Not the "aspire" part (there are plenty of occupations I wouldn't suggest anyone aspire to, but I wouldn't suggest they be outlawed either).

Take CK73 as an example (and at face value, this is the internet after all).

She is happy in her job.
Her clients are happy with the service she provides.

Now why, in your opinion, is her job less legitimate than say a clown?

(I'm using a clown as an example because they both do house calls to provide entertainment, they may be careers you wouldn't expect anyone to "aspire" to [although some presumably would], and they're jobs that presumably get tedious at times).

Dravokivich · 18-02-2013 05:44PM

Czarcasm wrote: »

I've already stated that I would encourage a discussion on ALL aspects of the issue at hand, but what has been happening in this thread so far is that most posters are unwilling to acknowledge the negative aspects of working in the sex industry.

In ANY career there are positive and negative aspects, but sex work is not a career that any young person in my opinion should aspire to. That's why you won't see "sex worker" on the CAO application forms any time soon, because anybody can do it. It requires no specialist skills whatsoever. I'm honestly struggling to come up with any other positive besides the financial remuneration, which as I've already pointed out, 99 times out of 100 isn't very rewarding for sex workers.

I don't think that's the case. A lot of the discussion is arguing that the negative aspects alluded to, should not be considered a default or the sole perspective to prostitution. No-one is denying those negative aspects you've mentioned.

Any committee to discuss such issues should be to look at encouraging betterment for the welfare of everyone involved in the industry, not discouraging the industry and unintentionally shoving it further into the shadows.

To highlight how activity in such an industry can be financially worthwhile for someone doesn't necessarily glorify it in any reckless manner either, nor does it imply a lack of risk for anyone involved on all levels. A few women who joined the discussion, did so to say they never really had any trouble. It's a shame you've seen as much as you have, but the question has to be asked, why is this experience not the same for all? What can we do to improve things?

They are not looking to improve, I get the impression it's removal they are after.

This would have been the perfect stage to minimise such risk and act on these issues, but the committee from what's been referenced through out this thread are not prepared to accept that some are able to come through it relatively successful and unscathed, unless they are pimps/brothel keepers/traffickers.

CK73 · 18-02-2013 05:47PM

Czarcasm wrote: »

Having never met me either, you have discerned from my posts that I have a negative mind? I can reassure you I'm a very positive individual who likes to inspire others to fulfill their potential as human beings and I will often go out of my way to do so. Counsellors are not a charity, but they don't try to paint their profession as all smelling of roses and love either. They are at least up front and honest about the fact that they will charge you a premium for their services.

When did Counsellors ever have their income threatened by crimanlizing their clients? Why would they have to justify themselves?

I don't know what your degree is in, but is it too much to ask for a degree of common sense regarding the issue?

I could ask the same of you.

I hope by now you can acknowledge just how wrong you are.

I can only go by your previous posts and they were negative.

Wrong again. I don't see a need to ignore your posts either. I wouldn't do that to anybody unless I felt they were completely incapable of looking at an issue from ALL perspectives and not just their own closed minded perspective. Yes, that's right, I used a phrase I hate to demonstrate that such phrases as open/closed minded are completely redundant, and that it is merely a matter of one's individual perspective on one particular issue. I like to listen to all perspectives in a discussion so I can gain a better understanding of where a person is coming from and why they hold the opinions they do. It doesn't have to mean we all have to agree with fabr other, and chances are on this issue- we won't.

And yet you continually summise what you think I am 'really' thinking and assume I am buttering things up. You are not actually reading what I am writing, but putting your on tilt on it.

Are shyness and a lack of confidence not borne of insecurity? Too busy to form relationships and being career minded should seek career/life balance rather than the quick and easy fix. Get out of a loveless relationship rather than learn to equate financial remuneration with the false pretence provided by your services (but I suppose regular customers are the bread and butter of your business!). Illness and deformity? I have a deformity but I never let it stop me from finding someone who loves me unconditionally without me having to pay for the privilege of a pretend relationship. Still think you're "helping" people by indulging their fantasies and charging a premium for the privilege? Would it not be in their better interest for you to encourage them to put themselves out there and meet people who won't charge them for their company? Oh right- it wouldn't be in YOUR best interests, because you'd suffer a reduction in YOUR regular income.

Yet more assumptions. I spend most of my time touring, so it is almost impossible to have regulars, although I may see the same person more than once in a year, it is rarely more than 2 or 3 times.

There is no pretense, although I have made some genuine friendships, be it as acquaintance or the type of friendship where I can ask for help and advise and visa versa. It's not all transparent and as humans we do forge relationships on many different levels. Why should it all be a lie?

I have seen quite a few of my clients gain the confidence and enough self respect to go on and have 'real' relationships. I am very happy for them and never try to tempt them back to me. I don't make first contact, it is one of my personal policies, as I don't want to impose on people and cause problems for them. Many men are beaten and bruised mentally after a relationship falls apart, so by the time they seek my services, they believe there is no alternative. It's very rewarding to see them go on and find someone they can trust and care for.

I imagine you wouldn't actively discourage anyone from availing of your services either as long as they have the money to pay for them. You say you wouldn't encourage anyone to do anything if they weren't sure about it, yet here you are painting a picture of how "great" a career being a sex worker is, that anyone reading your posts who might be unsure about entering the sex worker industry might think "well it doesn't sound so bad at all at all, I think I can do it and I think I can be as successful as her". You really need to think before you post about what kind of an influence your painting a perfect picture of sex work can have on the mind of a mentally vulnerable person, a person who lacks your intellect and intelligence. Sex work works for you, but like I said- it isn't a career for everybody, and should never be promoted as such.

I do and have actively discouraged men from seeing me. You can hear it in their voice when they call if they are not sure about what they are doing and I have told them to call me back when they have had a good long think and looked at the consequences of their actions and if they could live with them in the worse scenario.

I have offered counselling on occasion and given them the female perspective. In fact there is one gent I have talked to via pm who I have not met yet who originally wanted to meet me, but then we got talking about his wife's lack of libido and I told him that really he needed to be talking to her about it and let her know how upset he is about her rejection etc. Since he has spoken to her and she has agreed they have a problem and is going to see a Doctor to find out if the menapause is to blame or something deeper. He is elated that she is finally listening and I am pleased that he feels their relationship now has a chance.

Ok, so I may have done myself out of one booking, but really, it's not such a big deal and I can sleep at night with a clear conscience.

Maybe I'm different, but we are all self employed and working by our own set of rules, morals and standards and these ARE mine.

This is me replying to your statements about me, not me glamourising what I do.

18-02-2013 05:58PM

CK73, I admire you for coming on here and talking about your profession, takes a lot of balls to do that. Nice to see someone shining a light on another side of it.

Good for you.

Czarcasm · 18-02-2013 06:30PM

Seachmall wrote: »

And this what I'm interested in. Not the "aspire" part (there are plenty of occupations I wouldn't suggest anyone aspire to, but I wouldn't suggest they be outlawed either).

Take CK73 as an example (and at face value, this is the internet after all).

She is happy in her job.
Her clients are happy with the service she provides.

Now why, in your opinion, is her job less legitimate than say a clown?

(I'm using a clown as an example because they both do house calls to provide entertainment, they may be careers you wouldn't expect anyone to "aspire" to [although some presumably would], and they're jobs that presumably get tedious at times).

I never said a career as a sex worker was any less legitimate than any other occupation. I personally wouldn't look down on anyone for being a sex worker.

The difference between being a clown, or a bin man, and a sex worker is that there's a hell of a lot less personal risk involved in these occupations than there is in being a sex worker, and much less chance that the parties involved are personally exploited than there is with being a sex worker.

If you can't see how CK is an exceptional case, then honestly I don't know how to get my point across at this stage.

Seachmall · 18-02-2013 06:34PM

Czarcasm wrote: »

The difference between being a clown, or a bin man, and a sex worker is that there's a hell of a lot less personal risk involved in these occupations than there is in being a sex worker,

There are tons of jobs with far more personal risk involved.

and much less chance that the parties involved are personally exploited than there is with being a sex worker.

Which isn't an issue with the profession, but with legislation and regulation.

If you can't see how CM is an exceptional case, then honestly I don't know how to get my point across at this stage.

Nobody has demonstrated it's an exceptional case (remember: we're discussing those who willingly engage in it).

I'm trying to ascertain your reasons for not wanting prostitution legalised. If it is solely because of the risk of exploitation I don't see how pushing it under the mat will make it safer than if protective legislature was introduced.

As far as I can tell there are two mains questions surrounding the matter:

1) Is prostitution a legitimate job?
2) Would proper regulation make it safer for women than keeping it underground?

I think the answer to both those questions is "Yes".

Grayson · 18-02-2013 06:56PM

Czarcasm wrote: »

The difference between being a clown, or a bin man, and a sex worker is that there's a hell of a lot less personal risk involved in these occupations than there is in being a sex worker, and much less chance that the parties involved are personally exploited than there is with being a sex worker.

That's why I'm in favour of complete legalisation. By creating places like brothels which can be monitored, it removes a lot of the danger.

the simple fact is that this isn't going away. People are still going to choose this as a career, if only for the financial reward. The best way of insuring girls/guys aren't trafficked is to create a system that can monitor and protect them.

Czarcasm · 18-02-2013 07:25PM

Dravokivich wrote: »

I don't think that's the case. A lot of the discussion is arguing that the negative aspects alluded to, should not be considered a default or the sole perspective to prostitution. No-one is denying those negative aspects you've mentioned.

A hell of a lot of posters have downplayed the scale of the negative aspects though Drav, and asked for statistics to back up that negative view, knowing full well that no true statistics can be provided.

Any committee to discuss such issues should be to look at encouraging betterment for the welfare of everyone involved in the industry, not discouraging the industry and unintentionally shoving it further into the shadows.

But that's what this committee IS doing, is examining all the issues involved and looking at ways to improve the welfare of sex workers. Posters here have taken issue with the fact that there is an organisation with a religious bent involved, while at the same time the appointed representative for sex workers is a non national with a pìss poor grasp of English. I'd love to know how she was chosen. I too have my own issues with the make up of the committee. The fact that this girl is a sex worker does not make her an expert on the issues involved. That would be like saying that because I have a gammy hip, I know more about it than the consultant surgeon who will be performing the hip replacement. Do I fcuk! :pac:

The committee certainly should have had better representation from sex workers, yes, workers like CK who can articulate themselves well, and workers like some I've come across for whom the decision to become a sex worker hasn't worked out so well.

To highlight how activity in such an industry can be financially worthwhile for someone doesn't necessarily glorify it in any reckless manner either, nor does it imply a lack of risk for anyone involved on all levels. A few women who joined the discussion, did so to say they never really had any trouble. It's a shame you've seen as much as you have, but the question has to be asked, why is this experience not the same for all? What can we do to improve things?

Drav not once has any poster mentioned the issue of STI's, violence, humiliation, fcuk it I'm not even going to go there because it'll get short hearing in here with the "can you back that up with statistics?" crowd. The reason I can't is because society generally speaking doesn't give a shìte about the welfare of sex workers, so very little
statistics are available.

They are not looking to improve, I get the impression it's removal they are after.

I've made no bones about it Drav, I'm in favor of the stamping out of sex work too, because far more people are exploited and damaged by it than those that benefit from it. This doesn't mean that I support or agree with organisations like Ruhuma or their methods or ideals. My reasons have no religious bias, though I do have moral objections on grounds I've previously mentioned.

This would have been the perfect stage to minimise such risk and act on these issues, but the committee from what's been referenced through out this thread are not prepared to accept that some are able to come through it relatively successful and unscathed, unless they are pimps/brothel keepers/traffickers.

In fairness as I've already mentioned, the committee has taken submissions from a number of vested interest parties, even the vested interest party that started this thread by detailing the history of another vested interest party while at the same time failing to disclose the history of their own vested interest.

Son Of A Vidic · 18-02-2013 07:29PM

sexworkie wrote: »

Exclusion of Sex Workers from Justice Committee

They must have found that pretty hard to swallow.

Grayson · 18-02-2013 07:31PM

@Czarcasm I don't want to quote a big post. There have been far too many so far

I think my main gripe (and a lot of others) is that, as you said, there was only one representative. But there were 14 anti prostitution representatives there.

Just as a matter if interest, what do you think should be done. You've expressed a lot of your feelings about the act of being a prostitute, but I'm just wondering, do you think there's legislation that should be implemented or do you like the status quo?

Grayson · 18-02-2013 07:31PM

Corvus Maximus wrote: »

They must have found that pretty hard to swallow.

If I were them, I wouldn't take it lying down.

ToddyDoody · 18-02-2013 07:54PM

I'd personally trust the judgement of my prostitute ahead of my wife

Exclusion of Sex Workers from Justice Committee

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