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Exclusion of Sex Workers from Justice Committee

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Comments

  • #212
    David900
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 431 ✭✭David900


    Seachmall wrote: »
    In that single sentence you've dismissed the relevance of every lobby group in the world.

    Which is often highlighted, and so it should be here.


  • #213
    aare
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,579 ✭✭✭aare


    David900 wrote: »
    I do think sex workers should be included in the Justice Committee, however, I feel maybe the sex workers that would appear at the committee of their own free will would not represent all sex workers in Ireland today, but that is a separate point.

    Maybe not, but they would be a LOT closer to representing them than all the various "Turn Off the Red Light" orgs who have been allowed to misrepresent them, without mandate, ad nauseam, before the Justice Committe ever will be.
    David900 wrote: »
    I don't want to exclude you from the argument either, I just thought it might be for the best to highlight the history of the website to let people decide for themselves.

    WHAT on EARTH has that got to do with making the point that sex workers have the same right as any adult to speak for themselves, not be talked over like children or animals?


  • #214
    aare
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,579 ✭✭✭aare


    Czarcasm wrote: »

    Ehh, it kinda DOES matter, obviously! What are we doing here if we are not examining the sources of where our information is coming from that is being fed to us? Just because a particular vested interest party supports your position does not mean you shouldn't question it's validity or it's credibility!

    So you are questioning the validity and credibility of the point that sex workers have the same basic human rights as any other adult including self determination and representation on the grounds that someone who works for an escort site claims that they do?

    WEIRD.


  • #215
    Seachmall
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,041 ✭✭✭Seachmall


    David900 wrote: »
    Which is often highlighted, and so it should be here.

    I've no problem with you highlighting her interests. It's fair to do so.

    My issue is in dismissing her points offhand because of those interests.

    If she makes a claim that is true it is true regardless of her reasons for making it, likewise if it's false. Her posts should be judged on their own merit, it's wrong to judge them based on her interests.


    Edit - Also, you can link a news article even with names printed (you just can't accuse anybody yourself, or at least without an article to support it).


  • #216
    Sin City
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,375 ✭✭✭Sin City


    David can I ask what you have against sexworkie or is it just E-I your annoyed at. In a previous post you said Ruhama should be be judged on their work not by who is funding them and their history, yet you judge sexworkie on who she is funded by and its history.

    Secondly that documnetry on RTE was terrible biased and was hardly going to show a side of sex workers in a positive light.

    Thirdly your focus tends to be to discredit E-I (do you have something agaisnt this website? Maybe a jilted ex memeber?)

    Lastly you claimed that independent escorts arent the norm in Ireland and the majority are pimped /trafficked and used against their will, can you back up these statements?


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  • #217
    Anyone
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,376 ✭✭✭Anyone


    Seachmall wrote: »
    It's not a question of their opinion (of course it gives a better understanding of why they hold their opinion) but it shouldn't affect the merit of their posts.

    If they make a claim that is true it is true regardless of their reasons for making it, likewise if it's false.


    I never said how true or false it was, however, if a person is posting here and they make millions from the industry, I am going to view what they say differently.


  • #218
    Sin City
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,375 ✭✭✭Sin City


    sexworkie wrote: »
    Short of posting url to that website instead of blog I am working on (bearing in mind that posting escort website url is against rules here), I couldn't have made it much clearer? Did you even read the link I started this thread about?

    This is a bit like the exclusion of sex workers from Justice Committee. Lets exclude all sex workers from Justice Committee. And lets stop sexworkie having a say on boards.ie as that blog is supported by an escort website (a perfectly legal business I might add, no criminals there), so lets brand her a pimp.

    Ever occur to you that people like me who spend all day every day talking to sex workers might know industry well enough to have a useful opinion?


    If its a perfectly legal business why does it operate from the UK?
    Maybe because it is illegal for them to operate in the Republic or Ireland


  • #219
    Seachmall
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,041 ✭✭✭Seachmall


    Anyone wrote: »
    I never said how true or false it was, however, if a person is posting here and they make millions from the industry, I am going to view what they say differently.

    But you shouldn't let it affect your own opinion on the matter as a whole is what I'm saying.
    Sin City wrote: »
    If its a perfectly legal business why does it operate from the UK?
    Maybe because it is illegal for them to operate in the Republic or Ireland
    It's illegal to advertise in Ireland, I think that law is more of a roundabout attempt at legislating prostitution and evading it is more of a technicality that doesn't have any moral implications that should alter opinions (imo anyway).


  • #220
    Dravokivich
    Moderators, Category Moderators, Music Moderators, Politics Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 22,384 CMod ✭✭✭✭Dravokivich


    Sin City wrote: »
    If its a perfectly legal business why does it operate from the UK?
    Maybe because it is illegal for them to operate in the Republic or Ireland

    The Issue is they can't solicit within ROI. That includes advertising and an ROI hosted site would come under that. Which was an issue for a magazine there about 10/15 years ago as well. InDublin I think it was...
    Anyone wrote: »
    I never said how true or false it was, however, if a person is posting here and they make millions from the industry, I am going to view what they say differently.

    Doesn't make much sense, the people who work in the sex industry do so for financial gain. That goes from those who do the sex, to those who manage and provide the advertising for it. Anyone making money from that industry should be concerned with any efforts in place to prevent them from making money. Their experience within it should be considered valuable, not just for their own gains, but as something available to critique if needs be. This isn't being done from what I've read here. They are being criticised solely on being "an industry leader." Some of these people aren't as bastardy as may sound, one guy from Cork got done for running a brothel after reporting to gards that a guy came in looking for children.


  • #221
    Sin City
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,375 ✭✭✭Sin City


    Dravokivich wrote: »
    The Issue is they can't solicit within ROI. That includes advertising and an ROI hosted site would come under that. Which was an issue for a magazine there about 10/15 years ago as well. InDublin I think it was...

    I understand that , but its still against the law what they are doing technically.
    I know there is no moral implications here , but I am just stating a point in contrary to her post about the legailty of that website.


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  • #222
    David900
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 431 ✭✭David900


    Sin City wrote: »
    David can I ask what you have against sexworkie or is it just E-I your annoyed at. In a previous post you said Ruhama should be be judged on their work not by who is funding them and their history, yet you judge sexworkie on who she is funded by and its history.

    Secondly that documnetry on RTE was terrible biased and was hardly going to show a side of sex workers in a positive light.

    Thirdly your focus tends to be to discredit E-I (do you have something agaisnt this website? Maybe a jilted ex memeber?)

    Lastly you claimed that independent escorts arent the norm in Ireland and the majority are pimped /trafficked and used against their will, can you back up these statements?

    RTE documentary is no more biased than a website profiting from sex workers looking after their own interest.

    I think the posts of the OP and others should be judged on their merit, however, the OP clearly has an agenda which should be highlighted in the argument. Their history is linked with organisation and profiting of direct prostitution, not just a directory of escort advertisements. That is the bit I find unsavory.

    I didn't say the majority are pimped etc., what I said was the sex workers in front of the committee might not represent the majority of sex workers in Ireland. I'm not even implying they are, what I'm implying is that they might not be the happy hookers that the media sometimes portrays.

    Also, jilted ex member of what?


  • #223
    Seachmall
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,041 ✭✭✭Seachmall


    Sin City wrote: »
    I understand that , but its still against the law what they are doing technically.

    As they're are based in the UK it's technically not against the law.

    It's not illegal to advertise Irish escorts in the UK.

    Obviously its a blatant attempt at evading Irish legislation, but it does it successfully and is fully entitled to do so.


  • #224
    Dravokivich
    Moderators, Category Moderators, Music Moderators, Politics Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 22,384 CMod ✭✭✭✭Dravokivich


    David900 wrote: »

    I didn't say the majority are pimped etc., what I said was the sex workers in front of the committee might not represent the majority of sex workers in Ireland. I'm not even implying they are, what I'm implying is that they might not be the happy hookers that the media sometimes portrays.

    I get what you're saying there, but why would you think the "Happy Hookers," wouldn't be concerned about the welfare of those who are forced into it? Chances are, they'd probably be in a better position to assist in a discussion on those matters. How this topic has gone gives me a perspective that the whole debate is a case of "Generals are too far removed from the frontline."


  • #225
    Sin City
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,375 ✭✭✭Sin City


    David900 wrote: »
    RTE documentary is no more biased than a website profiting from sex workers looking after their own interest.
    I assume its a business and like any other business its there to make a profit yes, I dont think anyone is disputing that. However from what I have heard and read they actually do their best to keep sex workers safe , stay in contact with the gardai in relation to any sexual/physical assaults and the like. The RTE doc, was just about having an easy target and had no intention of doing a fair broadcast. The site in question has a public message board and views can be debated, unlike that RTE doc
    David900 wrote: »
    I think the posts of the OP and others should be judged on their merit, however, the OP clearly has an agenda which should be highlighted in the argument. Their history is linked with organisation and profiting of direct prostitution, not just a directory of escort advertisements. That is the bit I find unsavory.

    Everyone has an agenda, The government, sex workers, RTE , Ruhama etc
    From what I understand the peson you are refering to is no longer part of the business, in the same way that Ruhama is no longer part of the magdelines etc.
    David900 wrote: »
    I didn't say the majority are pimped etc., what I said was the sex workers in front of the committee might not represent the majority of sex workers in Ireland. I'm not even implying they are, what I'm implying is that they might not be the happy hookers that the media sometimes portrays.

    Also, jilted ex member of what?

    They also might represent the majority or do you know something I dont?


  • #226
    Grayson
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 17,068 ✭✭✭✭Grayson


    David900 wrote: »
    RTE documentary is no more biased than a website profiting from sex workers looking after their own interest.

    I think the posts of the OP and others should be judged on their merit, however, the OP clearly has an agenda which should be highlighted in the argument. Their history is linked with organisation and profiting of direct prostitution, not just a directory of escort advertisements. That is the bit I find unsavory.

    I didn't say the majority are pimped etc., what I said was the sex workers in front of the committee might not represent the majority of sex workers in Ireland. I'm not even implying they are, what I'm implying is that they might not be the happy hookers that the media sometimes portrays.

    Also, jilted ex member of what?

    I have an agenda. I believe in fairness and equality. ;)

    But, here's the thing. I'd be wary of statistics from surveys performed from any group. Or Claims for that matter. It's very easy for an anti-prostitution group to claim that in their experience blah, blah blah. And the same can be said for other groups.

    But a lot of valid arguments have been bashed because they came from certain people. they are logically thought out opinions that can be observed independant of statistics (although i do love valid statistics).

    In this case, the OP is right. When debating sex work, it makes sense to have the involvement of women who work in the industry. It certainly makes more sense than having two nuns who have never had sex.


  • #227
    David900
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 431 ✭✭David900


    Sin City wrote: »
    I assume its a business and like any other business its there to make a profit yes, I dont think anyone is disputing that. However from what I have heard and read they actually do their best to keep sex workers safe , stay in contact with the gardai in relation to any sexual/physical assaults and the like. The RTE doc, was just about having an easy target and had no intention of doing a fair broadcast. The site in question has a public message board and views can be debated, unlike that RTE doc



    Everyone has an agenda, The government, sex workers, RTE , Ruhama etc
    From what I understand the peson you are refering to is no longer part of the business, in the same way that Ruhama is no longer part of the magdelines etc.



    They also might represent the majority or do you know something I dont?

    They might but they might not, neither of us knows but we both have an opinion. It just differs.

    I have no problem with them being an escort advertising medium, its their history of involvement with organising and profiting from prostitution I am referring to.

    Can you prove that person no longer has a involvement in the business? A person transferring legal ownership to a spouse/partner might not be all that retired ;).


  • #228
    Seachmall
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,041 ✭✭✭Seachmall


    David900 wrote: »
    Can you prove that person no longer has a involvement in the business? A person transferring legal ownership to a spouse/partner might not be all that retired ;).

    In these types of discussions you need to rely on the known facts, assumptions like that just support current opinions or biases without adding any value to the debate.


  • #229
    CK73
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 410 ✭✭CK73


    Czarcasm wrote: »
    Just to clear this up then-

    I have nothing against manual labour.

    I have nothing against sex workers.

    What I am against is the exploitation of human beings, and faux concern and misrepresentation by vested interests on their behalf.

    I also don't see any reason why any human being should be encouraged and facilitated in the use of their own body as a sexual commodity for financial gain. I do not see a reason why those who seek gratification from sex workers should be accommodated.


    Before you jump down my throat and say "but you just said you don't have a problem with sex workers?", I don't, I have a problem with anyone encouraging or facilitating an individual's desire to become a sex worker when they should be encouraging them towards a career with real long term prospects and goals.

    And before you say "but what if a sex worker enjoys their work?". Just because they enjoy what they do now does not mean they shouldn't be encouraged to do a hell of a lot better for themselves.

    Sex workers are unnecessary in a modern society and in my opinion Ireland would be taking a step backwards were we to legislate for the encouragement of exploitation of another human being.

    Would it shock you to learn that I already hold a degree and higher qualification? That I chose to change my career, because my previous career was not working for me and I want to re-train in another direction. Escorting enables me to continue paying my bills and pay for the re-training and it was a well thought out decision, based on the knowledge that I had experience with Swinging and felt I would do well with the skill base I have.

    If I enjoy (which most of the time I do) the work I do and it is discrete and between two consenting adults, what is the problem?

    It's so easy to manipulate what I am doing and to say that I am selling myself? Utter crap! I enjoy meeting people, I spend time with them, we talk, laugh and enjoy a level of intimacy that varies, but always on my terms. I choose who I meet, how long we meet and yes I get paid. It's very little different to what I was doing before as a Swinger, but now I get paid! If I meet someone I don't like I can ask them to leave or I simply don't see them again. It is very rare though, as most people are nice and good company.

    Sorry to burst your bubble, but it really can be a great option to being in a job that you don't enjoy and yes the pay is good.


  • #230
    Sin City
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,375 ✭✭✭Sin City


    David900 wrote: »
    They might but they might not, neither of us knows but we both have an opinion. It just differs.

    I have no problem with them being an escort advertising medium, its their history of involvement with organising and profiting from prostitution I am referring to.

    Can you prove that person no longer has a involvement in the business? A person transferring legal ownership to a spouse/partner might not be all that retired ;).

    Can you prove that this person is still involved in this business or are you just trying to link him to discredit a business. From what I heard he was a complete scumbag alright but can you be sure that he is still involved?


  • #231
    Seachmall
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,041 ✭✭✭Seachmall


    CK73 wrote: »
    It's so easy to manipulate what I am doing and to say that I am selling myself?

    I think this is often the crux of these debates.

    Some believe sex to be more than a simple physical act that can be used as a commodity and believe that women need to be protected from being "exploited" as if it were.

    I think the argument comes from a good place but is easily fallacious and easily rebutted by someone like CK73 who's a living testament to it's inaccuracy.

    I, and presumably many escorts, view the sex industry as simply providing a service for a price like any other industry and unless it can be shown otherwise I can only assume a position to the contrary to be irrational.


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  • #232
    CK73
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 410 ✭✭CK73


    Originally Posted by Czarcasm viewpost.gif
    Sex workers are unnecessary in a modern society

    Yamanoto wrote: »
    You might expound on this point, as I've no idea what you actually mean by it.

    My experience tells me otherwise, so I would like to know what he means too.


  • #233
    monkeypants
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,386 ✭✭✭monkeypants


    The last home invasion laws were brought in and no burglars were consulted. Not one. Scandalous.


  • #234
    CK73
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 410 ✭✭CK73


    monkeypants wrote: »
    The last home invasion laws were brought in and no burglars were consulted. Not one. Scandalous.

    Are you likening me to a burglar? Why stop there, how about murderer? Rapist? Oh no even worse, Banker?

    What a ridiculous statement to make? We are committing no crime, we are actually doing an honest job and providing for areas of the community that are lacking in social interaction.

    I am starting to wonder, if the people that appose Sex Workers, are in relationships, have a sexual relationship or have had at some point and have no problem communicating with the general public? It seems to me that the people that care the least about other people's needs are the first to condemn.

    Quite sad really that there is such an apparent lack of empathy for other people. No wonder the world is in a mess, when so many people are only able to see the world from one perspective.


  • #235
    monkeypants
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,386 ✭✭✭monkeypants


    CK73 wrote: »
    Banker?
    Whoah!

    Sorry, it was a flippant remark made without really thinking. I've no involvement with sex workers and never have. Not sure on the legality of it all, but if no one is being hurt and everyone is treated fairly, then I don't see what the problem is.


  • #236
    Dravokivich
    Moderators, Category Moderators, Music Moderators, Politics Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 22,384 CMod ✭✭✭✭Dravokivich


    monkeypants wrote: »
    The last home invasion laws were brought in and no burglars were consulted. Not one. Scandalous.

    The thing is a burglar isn't considered a victim. The basis of this committee appears to assume all sex workers are victims. Where as that is not entirely the case.

    Some are, some aren't. There's no proper representation of that though.


  • #237
    CK73
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 410 ✭✭CK73


    monkeypants wrote: »
    Whoah!

    Sorry, it was a flippant remark made without really thinking. I've no involvement with sex workers and never have. Not sure on the legality of it all, but if no one is being hurt and everyone is treated fairly, then I don't see what the problem is.

    Apology graciously accepted and appreciated. Sadly the remark you made was reflective of many that don't really care and right people off as the enemy or not having morals. It is unfair.

    We are taught how to behave from young and very often our first big influence other than our parents is religion and for some reason it has a real downer on sex.

    Surprisingly (you might think) I can't abide one night stands and have never indulged in the club scene, where people get drunk or take drugs. I'm not a big drinker and I don't take drugs, I don't need a drug to enjoy myself. I like talking to people, getting to know them a bit, maybe going out for a meal, finding areas in common and putting the world to rights.

    I am a carer by nature and I have literally cried in the arms of a man who in his 40's told me he had not even kissed a woman before. He was gentle, shy and so likable, I have no idea how he managed to find himself in that position, but there he was and there I was and through my work, I was given an opportunity to fill a huge gap in this mans life.

    Can you imagine having never held someone in your arms and cuddled? Can you even begin to imagine how life would be different and less 'whole' without a little intimacy?

    Not all men are like that, but each one has their own unique reason for wanting to spend time with me and I give it willingly. Nothing weird, wacky or perverted, just a little bit of me and often I get twice as much back in return.

    Sadly even in today's society that makes me a whore, call it what you like, but I'm proud of what I do and I give a damn site more back to Society than most and yes I pay my taxes.


  • #238
    Nodin
    Closed Accounts Posts: 46,938 ✭✭✭✭Nodin


    David900 wrote: »
    RTE documentary (....)of what?

    I have no agenda, in that I neither am, nor use the services of, sex workers. I am, however, tired of your wild speculation with regards matters entirely unrelated.


  • #239
    Czarcasm
    Closed Accounts Posts: 10,076 ✭✭✭✭Czarcasm


    CK73 wrote: »

    Apology graciously accepted and appreciated. Sadly the remark you made was reflective of many that don't really care and right people off as the enemy or not having morals. It is unfair.

    We are taught how to behave from young and very often our first big influence other than our parents is religion and for some reason it has a real downer on sex.

    Surprisingly (you might think) I can't abide one night stands and have never indulged in the club scene, where people get drunk or take drugs. I'm not a big drinker and I don't take drugs, I don't need a drug to enjoy myself. I like talking to people, getting to know them a bit, maybe going out for a meal, finding areas in common and putting the world to rights.

    I am a carer by nature and I have literally cried in the arms of a man who in his 40's told me he had not even kissed a woman before. He was gentle, shy and so likable, I have no idea how he managed to find himself in that position, but there he was and there I was and through my work, I was given an opportunity to fill a huge gap in this mans life.

    Can you imagine having never held someone in your arms and cuddled? Can you even begin to imagine how life would be different and less 'whole' without a little intimacy?

    Not all men are like that, but each one has their own unique reason for wanting to spend time with me and I give it willingly. Nothing weird, wacky or perverted, just a little bit of me and often I get twice as much back in return.

    Sadly even in today's society that makes me a whore, call it what you like, but I'm proud of what I do and I give a damn site more back to Society than most and yes I pay my taxes.


    Just to pass quick comment on this before I go back and address some of the other points made.

    You're not a charity so stop it with the emotive nonsense, you're a business, in the business of making money off other people's insecurities. You don't provide your "intimacy" services free of charge. You do not provide counselling services, nor does your chosen career qualify you to do so in any manner even close to a professional capacity.


  • #240
    Grayson
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 17,068 ✭✭✭✭Grayson


    Czarcasm wrote: »
    Just to pass quick comment on this before I go back and address some of the other points made.

    You're not a charity so stop it with the emotive nonsense, you're a business, in the business of making money off other people's insecurities. You don't provide your "intimacy" services free of charge. You do not provide counselling services, nor does your chosen career qualify you to do so in any manner even close to a professional capacity.

    To be fair, you're making them sound like a payday loan provider who preys on the weak and vunerable.

    It's strange. Some people think men are being taken advantage of.
    Some think women are.


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  • #241
    Sin City
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,375 ✭✭✭Sin City


    Czarcasm wrote: »
    Just to pass quick comment on this before I go back and address some of the other points made.

    You're not a charity so stop it with the emotive nonsense, you're a business, in the business of making money off other people's insecurities. You don't provide your "intimacy" services free of charge. You do not provide counselling services, nor does your chosen career qualify you to do so in any manner even close to a professional capacity.

    Do you think nurses do the things they do for free?
    Of course its to make money, doesnt make her or anyone else a bad person does it?


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