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The Academies

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    #182
    lurtz
    Registered Users Posts: 687 ✭✭✭lurtz


    Was Ormond Lad not trying to say that he sees three different groups of underage players? : Schools,youths and exiles


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    #183
    ormond lad
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,632 ✭✭✭ormond lad


    lurtz wrote: »
    not true Tim,Terenure club and school are entirely separate things
    They are but Terenure College RFC(the club) have teams entered at some age groups in a schools-youths league. I dont know what exactly the rules of the competitions are but some kids who attend Terenure College school i believe can play in the schools-youths league
    lurtz wrote: »
    Was Ormond Lad not trying to say that he sees three different groups of underage players? : Schools,youths and exiles
    In a way yes. Exiles are not youths. If they were in ireland and were attending equivelent schools to Hartbury College, Sedbergh etc they would be playing for the irish schools not the irish youths.


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    #184
    [Jackass]
    Closed Accounts Posts: 9,193 ✭✭✭[Jackass]


    Personally having seen a bit of both, I think the ideal climate to groom youth rugby is in the schools system. Students are ingulffed in it 24/7 and I think there's a greater bond between people around each other all day every day.

    I remember in school rugby players getting time off classes and exempt from homework to go to the gym or to practice line out throws on the basketball court. (I went to a pretty big rugby school). It's 24/7 there, and then with Leinster schools selection you get the extra coaching outside of what you would ordinarily get.

    I think the communal youth system in Ireland is very good. I think the Leinster senior cup for example is of an extremely high standard for schools rugby anywhere you'll see.

    Big rugby schools tend to have much bigger budgets also, and the quality of coaching in some schools is first class. We were coached by an ex-Welsh international!


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    #185
    Hagz
    Closed Accounts Posts: 9,257 ✭✭✭Hagz


    I think we might hail from the same neck of the woods:D


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    #186
    BigHeel
    Registered Users Posts: 120 ✭✭BigHeel


    ormond lad wrote: »
    They are but Terenure College RFC(the club) have teams entered at some age groups in a schools-youths league. I dont know what exactly the rules of the competitions are but some kids who attend Terenure College school i believe can play in the schools-youths league

    The Schools-youths leagues in Leinster are for club teams. The clubs are allowed to field boys from section B schools (the big rugby schools) provided those boys are not in the SCT or JCT panels for their schools. While these boys can play for thier club in these leagues they are not eligable for Leinster or Ireland Youths.


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    #187
    Tim Robbins
    Registered Users Posts: 8,959 ✭✭✭Tim Robbins


    [Jackass] wrote: »
    Personally having seen a bit of both, I think the ideal climate to groom youth rugby is in the schools system. Students are ingulffed in it 24/7 and I think there's a greater bond between people around each other all day every day.

    I remember in school rugby players getting time off classes and exempt from homework to go to the gym or to practice line out throws on the basketball court. (I went to a pretty big rugby school). It's 24/7 there, and then with Leinster schools selection you get the extra coaching outside of what you would ordinarily get.

    I think the communal youth system in Ireland is very good. I think the Leinster senior cup for example is of an extremely high standard for schools rugby anywhere you'll see.

    Big rugby schools tend to have much bigger budgets also, and the quality of coaching in some schools is first class. We were coached by an ex-Welsh international!

    I have to disagree. I played youths and subsequently played rugby with people from big rugby schools who couldn't even pass off both hands. A lot of the coaching the players get at schools is on fitness. As a J3 player once commented to me - I haven't done weights since I was at school.

    Another problem is at schools, lads playing for the Rock 3rds really really want to beat Lads playing for the Mary's 3rds. But fast forward on and no-one wants to play J3 / J4 which is the level of these players. And if there playing they are on the beer the night before and at a pretty dismal standard.

    If they were playing for clubs those local rivalries would be going with them their entire lives. This is why the GAA clubs are so successful. There is a sense of both loyalty and rivalry with the club.


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    #188
    irishbucsfan
    Registered Users Posts: 37,978 ✭✭✭✭irishbucsfan


    I went to a rugby school but I have to say I would definitely support a move towards club rugby. A lot of very very talented guys from where I went on to play club rugby didn't go to rugby schools and never developed as well as they could have.

    I really like schools rugby and it's done us very well for such a small nation but we aren't nearly fulfilling the potential of our clubs.

    I suppose in an ideal world there might be a way of integrating the systems?


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    #189
    lurtz
    Registered Users Posts: 687 ✭✭✭lurtz


    irishbucsfan wrote: »
    I went to a rugby school but I have to say I would definitely support a move towards club rugby. A lot of very very talented guys from where I went on to play club rugby didn't go to rugby schools and never developed as well as they could have.

    I really like schools rugby and it's done us very well for such a small nation but we aren't nearly fulfilling the potential of our clubs.

    I suppose in an ideal world there might be a way of integrating the systems?

    what would you do differently if you were in charge?


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    #190
    RobbieRuns
    Registered Users Posts: 1,274 ✭✭✭RobbieRuns


    lurtz wrote: »
    Was Ormond Lad not trying to say that he sees three different groups of underage players? : Schools,youths and exiles

    I try hard to respect other peoples points of view and it has obviously come to light that this is Ormond's opinion, which he has clarified. Whilst it is one thing having an opinion, which we are all entitiled to...... we have Two (not three) underage teams at U18 level, the Clubs and the Schools and that is a fact...... not an opinion. The Exiles are part of the Irish Clubs Team.

    I personally could see no benefit from combining them with the schools, but that is just my opinion. Maybe it would be best to just have one team at U18 level? The Youths would get less opportunities though if this was the case and I would see that as a backward step as well, in my opinion.

    The Exiles play a significant part in the Clubs (Youths) team. They are not part of the Schools set up. I think that they contribute very well to our underage set up and some provincial Academies are very much reaping the rewards of that (Connacht in particular, not having such a strong schools set up as the other provinces). They are getting better players into our Academies every year from what I see. Surely the aim is to get the best Irish qualified players possible. I for one am really happy with the system as it stands and see the Clubs side as a great avenue for talented young Irish players, Exiles included.


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    #191
    opinionatedfan
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 1,664 ✭✭✭opinionatedfan


    we were talking about young players being developed in the Irish Club game, not by the schools and not by the Exile structures.

    The aim is to the some say the Irish Club system would be producing as many potential professional players as the Schools system anything from the exiles is a bonus as they are developed in English schools or clubs


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    #192
    shaungil
    Registered Users Posts: 1,014 ✭✭✭shaungil


    I think clubs can only control the control-ables and ingeneral schools while having links with clubs and often have good relationshipsbetween the two are often looking for different things. Top level schools want towin cups and leagues clubs want or should want to develop players to play asadults at all levels in a club and hopefully at a representative level also.



    Top level schools are paying good money to coaches and aregenerally committed to getting good numbers playing , lower level schools aretypically reliant on teachers often who do it out of love but with Croke Parkagreement this is becoming problematic. I believe branches can have Developmentguys go to schools but a teacher has to travel to matches.



    Also some clubs have players who do not go to rugby playingschools so it’s important that these guys continue to get rugby even when theyhave club teamamtes playing JCT and club competitions. My own club giveswhatever support it can to the local rugby playing school but ultimately itcannot control what happens there and so must focus on the club.



    I’ve mentioned before about the fractious relationshipbetween top schools and the Leinster branch regarding access and this may getworse when the schools system is so result oriented in a restricted cup format.



    What can the IRFU do? I guess they need to financiallyincentivise schools that produce provincial/international players but thismight prove to be problematic. Ultimately the IRFU are not in charge of theschools I presume so they cannot tell them what to do. Of course the schoolsare still generating a huge number of great players but unfortunately a lot ofschools are so intense this does not transfer into adults playing. Of coursenot every player that comes through the club system only will continue playingeither and it would be interesting to compare retention stats.


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    #193
    themont85
    Registered Users Posts: 2,608 ✭✭✭themont85


    Tim Robbins wrote: »
    I have to disagree. I played youths and subsequently played rugby with people from big rugby schools who couldn't even pass off both hands. A lot of the coaching the players get at schools is on fitness. As a J3 player once commented to me - I haven't done weights since I was at school.

    Another problem is at schools, lads playing for the Rock 3rds really really want to beat Lads playing for the Mary's 3rds. But fast forward on and no-one wants to play J3 / J4 which is the level of these players. And if there playing they are on the beer the night before and at a pretty dismal standard.

    If they were playing for clubs those local rivalries would be going with them their entire lives. This is why the GAA clubs are so successful. There is a sense of both loyalty and rivalry with the club.

    Plenty of people drop out of underage GAA to adults.

    The dropout rates are just a fact of life. You can go from having 50 or 60 of a 100 year group at school playing rugby in 3rd year to 20ish at 6th year. Life just does that and it happens after they leave school as well.


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    #194
    lurtz
    Registered Users Posts: 687 ✭✭✭lurtz


    think were a bit off topic here straying onto the aul perpetual school vs club debate..but who am I to intervene,carry on sure


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    #195
    Tim Robbins
    Registered Users Posts: 8,959 ✭✭✭Tim Robbins


    lurtz wrote: »
    not true Tim,Terenure club and school are entirely separate things
    Yes that's true.

    I meant to say,

    In Terenure, there is a schools and a youths team. And on the U20's team, you get players who have go thru both systems.


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    #196
    Winters
    Registered Users Posts: 14,761 ✭✭✭✭Winters


    themont85 wrote: »
    Plenty of people drop out of underage GAA to adults.

    The dropout rates are just a fact of life. You can go from having 50 or 60 of a 100 year group at school playing rugby in 3rd year to 20ish at 6th year. Life just does that and it happens after they leave school as well.

    Its called alcohol..:D


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    #197
    thebaz
    Registered Users Posts: 13,581 ✭✭✭✭thebaz


    Winters wrote: »
    Its called alcohol..:D

    agree , was certainly a big factor in me cutting short my brief playing career - wasn't really going anywhere - but rugby and booze didnt mix for me - in fact booze and most things didnt agree with me , thats why I'm a narky ex drinker :mad:


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    #198
    Liveforrugby
    Registered Users Posts: 343 ✭✭Liveforrugby


    Anyone know how big adam byrne is? Been hearing great things about him


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    #199
    opinionatedfan
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 1,664 ✭✭✭opinionatedfan


    Liveforrugby wrote: »
    Anyone know how big adam byrne is? Been hearing great things about him

    heard he is 6'2ish


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    #200
    lurtz
    Registered Users Posts: 687 ✭✭✭lurtz


    yeah hes about 6'1 or 6'2 and Id say 92kg or so. Signed an academy contract earlier this month,good news


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    #201
    opinionatedfan
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 1,664 ✭✭✭opinionatedfan


    Update on the Leinster Academy players.

    1st - Ed Byrne - injured
    1st - Brian Byrne - in the extended squad for the under 20s
    1st - Adam Byrne - injured
    1st - Cathal Marsh - spending most of his time playing for Trinity
    1st - Gavin Thornbury - starting second row for the under 20s
    1st - Tadhg Beirne - spending most of his time playing for Landsdowne
    1st - Dan Leavy - injured
    1st - Josh Van Der Flier - in the under 20s squad
    1st - Jack Conan - injured
    2nd - James Treacy - being converted to hooker
    2nd - David Doyle - returning from injury
    2nd - Martin Moore - starting to get some first team action
    2nd - Tadhg Furlong - spending most of his time playing for Clontarf
    2nd - Conor Gilsenan - spending most of his time playing for UCD
    2nd - Luke McGrath - captain of the under 20s
    2nd - Jordan Coughlan - spending most of his time playing for UCD
    2nd - Colm O'Shea - injured
    2nd - Andrew Boyle - spending most of his time playing for UCD
    3rd - Noel Reid - squad player for the senior team lately
    3rd - Sam Coughlan Murray - spending most of his time playing for UCD
    3rd - Darren Hudson - recently returned from injury
    3rd - Jack O'Connell - started to make cameo appearances for Leinster
    3rd - Ben Marshall - recently signed a development contract and starting to get more first team action
    3rd - Jordi Murphy - recently signed a development contract and starting to get more first team action


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    #202
    lurtz
    Registered Users Posts: 687 ✭✭✭lurtz


    opinionatedfan wrote: »
    Update on the Leinster Academy players.

    1st - Ed Byrne - injured
    1st - Brian Byrne - in the extended squad for the under 20s
    1st - Adam Byrne - injured
    1st - Cathal Marsh - spending most of his time playing for Trinity
    1st - Gavin Thornbury - starting second row for the under 20s
    1st - Tadhg Beirne - spending most of his time playing for Landsdowne
    1st - Dan Leavy - injured
    1st - Josh Van Der Flier - in the under 20s squad
    1st - Jack Conan - injured
    2nd - James Treacy - being converted to hooker
    2nd - David Doyle - returning from injury
    2nd - Martin Moore - starting to get some first team action
    2nd - Tadhg Furlong - spending most of his time playing for Clontarf
    2nd - Conor Gilsenan - spending most of his time playing for UCD
    2nd - Luke McGrath - captain of the under 20s
    2nd - Jordan Coughlan - spending most of his time playing for UCD
    2nd - Colm O'Shea - injured
    2nd - Andrew Boyle - spending most of his time playing for UCD
    3rd - Noel Reid - squad player for the senior team lately
    3rd - Sam Coughlan Murray - spending most of his time playing for UCD
    3rd - Darren Hudson - recently returned from injury
    3rd - Jack O'Connell - started to make cameo appearances for Leinster
    3rd - Ben Marshall - recently signed a development contract and starting to get more first team action
    3rd - Jordi Murphy - recently signed a development contract and starting to get more first team action

    Ed byrne and dan leavy are on the way back,should be togging out for ucd in 2 weeks. Dave Doyle is just back and had been coming off the bench for ucd in their last few games,same with Gilsenan just back. has o'connell made any first xv appearances?


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    #203
    opinionatedfan
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 1,664 ✭✭✭opinionatedfan


    lurtz wrote: »
    Ed byrne and dan leavy are on the way back,should be togging out for ucd in 2 weeks. Dave Doyle is just back and had been coming off the bench for ucd in their last few games,same with Gilsenan just back. has o'connell made any first xv appearances?

    yeah he played last weekend and the weekend before of the bench.


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    #204
    lurtz
    Registered Users Posts: 687 ✭✭✭lurtz


    What do people think about any of this roscrea teams chances of progressing?


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    #205
    opinionatedfan
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 1,664 ✭✭✭opinionatedfan


    lurtz wrote: »
    What do people think about any of this roscrea teams chances of progressing?

    Walshe(LH), Heffernan(TH), SOB(6/8) and Moloney(7) will filter through to the academy system eventually.


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    #206
    lurtz
    Registered Users Posts: 687 ✭✭✭lurtz


    If I was nigel Carolan id offer Rory Moloney a contract now before \Leinster do


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    #207
    Winters
    Registered Users Posts: 14,761 ✭✭✭✭Winters


    Has anyone seen Cathal Marsh play recently?

    After Ian Madigan and Noel Reid he is Leinster's next 10. There is no other outhalf in the academy that I know of..?

    Behind him I would love to see Ross Byrne getting into the academy next year or the year after. There's a St. Michael's outhalf trend appearing here..


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    #208
    Tox56
    Registered Users Posts: 11,636 ✭✭✭✭Tox56


    Winters wrote: »
    Has anyone seen Cathal Marsh play recently?

    After Ian Madigan and Noel Reid he is Leinster's next 10. There is no other outhalf in the academy that I know of..?

    Behind him I would love to see Ross Byrne getting into the academy next year or the year after. There's a St. Michael's outhalf trend appearing here..

    Thought Byrne was excellent when I saw him too, but according to people more in the know Conor McKeon from Gonzaga is the 10 most likely to get an academy place out of school


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    #209
    opinionatedfan
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 1,664 ✭✭✭opinionatedfan


    Winters wrote: »
    Has anyone seen Cathal Marsh play recently?

    After Ian Madigan and Noel Reid he is Leinster's next 10. There is no other outhalf in the academy that I know of..?

    Behind him I would love to see Ross Byrne getting into the academy next year or the year after. There's a St. Michael's outhalf trend appearing here..

    Steve Crosbie is in the sub-academy, hard to know if he will get the promotion but he is currently playing in the under-20's team.


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    #210
    .ak
    Registered Users Posts: 30,308 Mod ✭✭✭✭.ak


    The thing with Crosbie is he's a fairly big unit. I could be wrong, but he looks bigger than Reid and Marsh. The latter both have oodles of skill, but get bullied about a little regarding their step up to to senior level. One would hope Crosbie's physicality would stand to him when he makes that step.


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    #211
    jamiedav2011
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,906 ✭✭✭jamiedav2011


    .ak wrote: »
    The thing with Crosbie is he's a fairly big unit. I could be wrong, but he looks bigger than Reid and Marsh. The latter both have oodles of skill, but get bullied about a little regarding their step up to to senior level. One would hope Crosbie's physicality would stand to him when he makes that step.

    I've only seen Crosbie twice, but to me he looked like more of a 12 than a 10, has he played at inside centre I wonder?


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