The Academies

ormond lad

RobbieRuns wrote: »

Some very interesting information there in these last few posts. A lot of the talk of players involved seem to be discussing Leinster only. The Academies are in four provinces and I think that the return from the youths as a whole will be very good. Certainly more than 2 this year into the four provincial academies. It also depends whether you include sub-adcademies as well I suppose. From a Connacht perspective I see Kevin Hastings as a great prospect and Conor Kyne and Jack Codyre as potential Academy recruits next year. The other fella that was an amazing player with our U18's last year was the young Exile Sean O'Hagan, he was cutting through players for fun when I saw him turn out for us last year. Best display I had seen for years. People in the Connacht set up have said that he is one of the best prospects around. I would have thought that it was not a case of if he gets offered something but more which academy he turns up in ! Did he not start every game for last years youths with Adam Byrne in the centre (at 16) and still only 17? I would say that every province (bar Leinster maybe with young Brewer) would be looking at that young fella. I hope that he goes to Connacht.

The Exiles have recently provided us with Alex O'Meara, David Panter and indeed Kieran Marmion who is still a last year academy student and training with the full Irish squad. Ulster and Munster have had players into their academies as well. Even the Leinster got young Ruddock through the Exiles. I think they provided 5 players to the U20 squad for the Welsh game. They come through the Youth system do they not? I would say that the youth set up will produce some great players for all the provincial Academies. If you are talking Leinster only it might only be two as the schools are dominant and indeed the other provinces will look at taking some rejected Leinster players from the schools and clubs. However I would hazard a guess that in all the academies you might find some good young Exiles come through as well (particularly in Connacht and Ulster)

Good post. The exiles do play for the youths but in nearly all cases i wouldnt regard them as youths, as such, considering most if not all exiles go to schools in england like millfield, st benedicts, eton..
As this years under 18 schools are so strong some of the youths may lose out this season but thats not an issue and they may get a shot in future years if they continue on to AIL level
Yes O Hagan, like all on the irish youths, will turn 18 this year

RobbieRuns

ormond lad wrote: »

Good post. The exiles do play for the youths but in nearly all cases i wouldnt regard them as youths, as such, considering most if not all exiles go to schools in england like millfield, st benedicts, eton..
As this years under 18 schools are so strong some of the youths may lose out this season but thats not an issue and they may get a shot in future years if they continue on to AIL level
Yes O Hagan, like all on the irish youths, will turn 18 this year

You might not regard them as Youths and have an obvious dislike of young fellas who play for English schools............... but they are Irish and come though the Irish Youth system and are encouraged to go down the Irish Academy route and as my previous post, they are getting some great players coming through.

Even players from Irish Youths go to school!!!!! it is not just down to where you go to school and should not be held against anyone.

opinionatedfan

Youths are players who come through the Irish club system.

Exiles are different category in my book. And its important we take advantage of them.

ormond lad

RobbieRuns wrote: »

You might not regard them as Youths and have an obvious dislike of young fellas who play for English schools............... but they are Irish and come though the Irish Youth system and are encouraged to go down the Irish Academy route and as my previous post, they are getting some great players coming through.

Even players from Irish Youths go to school!!!!! it is not just down to where you go to school and should not be held against anyone.

I do not dislike those who go to english schools(the irish exiles generally go to some of the top independent schools in england). They are very different category to youths who play for the provinces.
Im not saying they shouldnt play for ireland but maybe they should be looked at in a different way.

RobbieRuns

ormond lad wrote: »

I do not dislike those who go to english schools(the irish exiles generally go to some of the top independent schools in england). They are very different category to youths who play for the provinces.
Im not saying they shouldnt play for ireland but maybe they should be looked at in a different way.

You do say that you "don't regard them as Youths" because they go to school in England, whether it is a top independent school or a shack at the back of a bog, should make no difference, just as it should make no difference in this country. If you go to school in D4 or Dingle it should not matter. I find some of your remarks incredible. They play for the Irish Youths, the Irish U18 Clubs and you "don't regard them as Youths". Disrespectful sir in the extreme.

How do you think that "they should be looked at in a different way"? (a remark that suggests predjeduice against Exiles) You could not want them to play for the Irish schools as they are bursting with talent (as you admit) and it would only make them stronger and the youths weaker, they would get slaughtered. Even in this country the really good youths end up going to good Irish rugby schools early on anyways or later to do leaving Cert in many cases. The youths lose a lot of players to the schools set up, do they not?
It would also be crazy to combine the schools and the Exiles as it would limit the amount of School players, where our greater number of better players are and not give as many Exiles an opportunity to be seen, so I don't know what different way" you would look at these young Irish prospects. You might enlighten me.

I have no loyalty to the Exiles other than seeing some really good players come to our academy for the benefit of Irish rugby. I am just amazed that you don't see that as well.

ormond lad

RobbieRuns wrote: »

You do say that you "don't regard them as Youths" because they go to school in England, whether it is a top independent school or a shack at the back of a bog, should make no difference, just as it should make no difference in this country. If you go to school in D4 or Dingle it should not matter. I find some of your remarks incredible. They play for the Irish Youths, the Irish U18 Clubs and you "don't regard them as Youths". Disrespectful sir in the extreme.

How do you think that "they should be looked at in a different way"? (a remark that suggests predjeduice against Exiles) You could not want them to play for the Irish schools as they are bursting with talent (as you admit) and it would only make them stronger and the youths weaker, they would get slaughtered. Even in this country the really good youths end up going to good Irish rugby schools early on anyways or later to do leaving Cert in many cases. The youths lose a lot of players to the schools set up, do they not?
It would also be crazy to combine the schools and the Exiles as it would limit the amount of School players, where our greater number of better players are and not give as many Exiles an opportunity to be seen, so I don't know what different way" you would look at these young Irish prospects. You might enlighten me.

I have no loyalty to the Exiles other than seeing some really good players come to our academy for the benefit of Irish rugby. I am just amazed that you don't see that as well.

You say that where they go to school makes no difference but that is the main difference between the 2 irish under 18 sides. One is for those who attend the rugby playing schools and one for those who do not
Maybe the exiles u18 side that plays in the youths interpro competition should also play in the u18 schools interpro competition and the exiles could potentially make the irish schools side.
Yes some of the very good youths do go on to attend rugby schools but that is not the case as much any more due to the huge improvements in the standard of rugby in youths rugby competitions at under 15/17/19 levels.

BigHeel

The youths system has really come on in the last few years. However I do think that Leinsters decision to only field one U19 side next season is a backwards step for the development of youth players in the province.

opinionatedfan

A youth rugby player is a player who grew up, developed and was spotted playing club/small school rugby in Ireland.

An exile rugby player is a player who has Irish heritage but was spotted and recruited from abroad to play for Ireland. His development is down to the exile country systems for the most part until he joins the exile system.

Club rugby aka youths can be developed further as its under Irish control, exiles are fluent and it depends a lot factors out of Irish control.

ormond lad

BigHeel wrote: »

The youths system has really come on in the last few years. However I do think that Leinsters decision to only field one U19 side next season is a backwards step for the development of youth players in the province.

Is it confirmed that Leinster are only fielding one u19 side in september?
They kept the 2nd 19s side a season longer than the other provinces. They had one this season when Ulster and Munster had got rid of theirs for this season
Real shame if true.
Its a backward step for all as 20+ lads dont get a chance to play interpros and it will make it harder for those not in squad to make the following years under 20 squad

BigHeel

ormond lad wrote: »

Is it confirmed that Leinster are only fielding one u19 side in september?
They kept the 2nd 19s side a season longer than the other provinces. They had one this season when Ulster and Munster had got rid of theirs for this season
Real shame if true.
Its a backward step for all as 20+ lads dont get a chance to play interpros and it will make it harder for those not in squad to make the following years under 20 squad

So I was told by someone in Leinster youths.

RobbieRuns

ormond lad wrote: »

You say that where they go to school makes no difference but that is the main difference between the 2 irish under 18 sides. One is for those who attend the rugby playing schools and one for those who do not
Maybe the exiles u18 side that plays in the youths interpro competition should also play in the u18 schools interpro competition and the exiles could potentially make the irish schools side.
Yes some of the very good youths do go on to attend rugby schools but that is not the case as much any more due to the huge improvements in the standard of rugby in youths rugby competitions at under 15/17/19 levels.

If you are saying that you want the Irish Exiles players to trial out to make the Irish U18 Schools side then you do not have the best interests of Irish Rugby at heart.

The main source of Irish rugby players for internationals is from our schools team. The best players who love the game tend to go to good rugby schools to get better coaching, improve as players, play more games. The Youths who are very good, eventually go there too if offered the opportunity. I always thought that the idea of having two sides at U18 was to get as many talented players into our system as possible, they join forces at U19 were the best players make the cut and go on to U20 level irrespective of were they played. Top players are in Academies and sub Academies by then or playing good AIL rugby. The Exiles which are proving to be a great source of talent (as U20 squad shows) would never get as great a chance if they were put to play in the Irish Schools side (not even sure if all the Exiles go to these top schools that you talk about) and the Irish schools players would miss out to the odd top Exile who would make the team. That player more than likely being way better than a club player. I have never heard such a ludicrious argument in my life. One of last years Irish Youths who was an Exile, Joe Bercis came to Connacht and Captained our U19 side to the interprovincial title this season, a great player and as far as I know he did not go to any top school, so how would he have fitted into your plan?

Surely the whole idea to progress our national team is to get the best Irish qualifed players into our system, into our academies and playing for Ireland at top level. The Exiles from what I see are producing some great players and you want to restrict them by not letting them play for the youths ! Utter Madness and could never be for the benefit of our academies our Irish rugby.

Tim Robbins

RobbieRuns wrote: »

If you are saying that you want the Irish Exiles players to trial out to make the Irish U18 Schools side then you do not have the best interests of Irish Rugby at heart.

The main source of Irish rugby players for internationals is from our schools team. The best players who love the game tend to go to good rugby schools to get better coaching, improve as players, play more games. The Youths who are very good, eventually go there too if offered the opportunity. I always thought that the idea of having two sides at U18 was to get as many talented players into our system as possible, they join forces at U19 were the best players make the cut and go on to U20 level irrespective of were they played. Top players are in Academies and sub Academies by then or playing good AIL rugby. The Exiles which are proving to be a great source of talent (as U20 squad shows) would never get as great a chance if they were put to play in the Irish Schools side (not even sure if all the Exiles go to these top schools that you talk about) and the Irish schools players would miss out to the odd top Exile who would make the team. That player more than likely being way better than a club player. I have never heard such a ludicrious argument in my life. One of last years Irish Youths who was an Exile, Joe Bercis came to Connacht and Captained our U19 side to the interprovincial title this season, a great player and as far as I know he did not go to any top school, so how would he have fitted into your plan?

Surely the whole idea to progress our national team is to get the best Irish qualifed players into our system, into our academies and playing for Ireland at top level. The Exiles from what I see are producing some great players and you want to restrict them by not letting them play for the youths ! Utter Madness and could never be for the benefit of our academies our Irish rugby.

Generally a schools player will be training 4 times a week whereas a youths player will be lucky to be training twice a week. So the idea is to get an idea how good a player is you need to see him against players who train to a similar level.

To be honest, the IRFU etc have got a lot better at this.

There would have been times past where a youths player or even someone from a lower placed school (Newbridge) would just not have had a chance.

The structures are much better now.

Terenure run a youths and schools team and then mixed when they hit U20.

opinionatedfan

An example of a player who came through youths and then schools is Eoin Sheriff, played all his rugby for Gorey RFC and Gorey CS at number 8 and was spotted playing for Leinster Clubs then he was offered a one year scholarship at blackrock where he went onto represent leinster schools, ireland under 18 and 20 at second row. Finally ending up at Saracens now

Who is to say where he would be if rock hadn't have offered him a chance at schools rugby.

Stanza2

There are lots of examples of great players who start out with clubs and then get picked up by schools, Fergal Cleary (clongowes) last year and Sean O'Brien (Roscrea) the previous year both played Irish clubs then went to top schools before playing with Irish schools. Did'nt Denis Leamy start at clubs before being spotted by a top school.

RobbieRuns makes many good points previously. I have to agree about the Exile situation very few people want them in our system really and it must be very hard for them to break through in this country. Some of them may go to good rugby schools and that is largely why they are good players, most of these lads just want to play for Ireland and that is why they come here. With the new rules on IQP they will become more important in our structure. Before OL starts quoting players like Shane Geraghty who decided to play for England, we should be aware that lots of Irish qualified lads only go to play for England because we do not want them in the first place! It's not their fault that their parents and grandparents had to emigrate. We should welcome them and give them every opportunity to play here if they are good enough. There are plenty of good players on this years irish Youth team and lots of them are Exiles

Hagz

Who doesn't want them......
I've read nothing in this thread that suggests that.

Stanza2

Sorry, I must have mis-read the bits about them not being regarded as part of our youth set up, not being regarded as Irish Youths, if they are not wanted as part of our youth structure and currently not part of our set up involving our schools team.... What are they part of?

Hagz

Stanza2 wrote: »

Sorry, I must have mis-read the bits about them not being regarded as part of our youth set up, not being regarded as Irish Youths, if they are not wanted as part of our youth structure and currently not part of our set up involving our schools team.... What are they part of?

I can't say for definite, but I think Ormond was saying that he doesn't see Exiles being quite like Youths players because Exiles don't come through the Irish club system and many of them come from rugby school backgrounds. I don't think he was saying that they shouldn't be a part of the Youths team, just that they're not the same thing.

For example, if I was to talk about the recent progress that the Youths system in Ireland has made by picking out successful products, I wouldn't use an exile as an example.

ormond lad

Hagz wrote: »

I can't say for definite, but I think Ormond was saying that he doesn't see Exiles being quite like Youths players because Exiles don't come through the Irish club system and many of them come from rugby school backgrounds. I don't think he was saying that they shouldn't be a part of the Youths team, just that they're not the same thing.

For example, if I was to talk about the recent progress that the Youths system in Ireland has made by picking out successful products, I wouldn't use an exile as an example.

Thats the gist of it. If you look at many of the exiles who have played irish u18 clubs over the past few years and the schools they go to the list of schools includes several of the big public schools in england like Millfield, Eton, Sedbergh, Whitgift etc
They do not come through the clubs system and very much come from a rugby schools background.
And if you were talking about the progress of the youths system you would talk about the likes of Sean O Brien, Shane Horgan etc

RobbieRuns

Stanza, It might be a bit harsh to say that no one wants the Exiles, but they are certainly looked upon as different and although I was shocked by the earlier comments as I always thought that they were doing really well and adding much to our rugby academies. I do not believe that no one really wants the Exiles. Most fair minded people would see them as making a positive contribution.

Stanza2

Hagz wrote: »

I can't say for definite, but I think Ormond was saying that he doesn't see Exiles being quite like Youths players because Exiles don't come through the Irish club system and many of them come from rugby school backgrounds. I don't think he was saying that they shouldn't be a part of the Youths team, just that they're not the same thing.

For example, if I was to talk about the recent progress that the Youths system in Ireland has made by picking out successful products, I wouldn't use an exile as an example.

How would you rate the product that is Kieran Marmion, who was an Exile who played for the clubs about 4 years ago and trained with the full squad last week?is he not a successful product? What about Conor Joyce and the other 4 Exiles who played with the U20 squad this last few weeks? What about Mike McCarthy who is togging out for us this week, he went to Sedbergh and played for the Exiles, is he not a successful product? There are many others Declan Fitzpatrick at Ulster, Sean Dougall at Munster I could go on......

I see lots of successful "products" coming over here, and it must be tough for them. OL did say that he does not regard them as youths ! For me they are Irish Youths. They never get mentioned as prospects by most people on these boards because they do not come through our clubs system. They are definitely treated as different, that's for sure

RobbieRuns

Hagz wrote: »

I can't say for definite, but I think Ormond was saying that he doesn't see Exiles being quite like Youths players because Exiles don't come through the Irish club system and many of them come from rugby school backgrounds. I don't think he was saying that they shouldn't be a part of the Youths team, just that they're not the same thing.

For example, if I was to talk about the recent progress that the Youths system in Ireland has made by picking out successful products, I wouldn't use an exile as an example.

I think that you will find that OL was suggesting that the Exiles should NOT be part of the youths team, he thinks that they should be part of the schools team......... that makes no sense to me at all and I have put my case about this previously. That alone does suggest that they are not wanted by some on here (not by everyone mind) and I do find that distasteful, as well as plain wrong for the good of Irish rugby. I would love more of them in Connacht, they have been very successful products for us.

Hagz

I have no idea why you or the other poster are getting so worked up about this, because there is literally nothing to get worked up over........

Why don't you do me a favour and find a post where someone has said that there have been no successful Exile products, or why don't you find me a post where there is even the remotest hint of under-appreciation of Exiles, because I can't see 1.

You act as though by Ormond or myself not categorising them as Youths players, it's like we are saying they're not as deserving of a spot on an Irish team. As though the title of "Youths Player" is some sort of certificate to play for Ireland. Schools players aren't Youths players and they are just as deserving of a spot on an Irish team as Youths, as are Exiles. I'm sorry but the attitude you and others are giving of is totally uncalled for. A person saying that they consider an Exile and a Youth player two different things does not warrant this kind of reaction, in the same way that if I were to say that a Schools player and a Youths player are two different things doesn't warrant a similar reaction. Take the attitude somewhere else please.

ormond lad

RobbieRuns wrote: »

I think that you will find that OL was suggesting that the Exiles should NOT be part of the youths team, he thinks that they should be part of the schools team......... that makes no sense to me at all and I have put my case about this previously. That alone does suggest that they are not wanted by some on here (not by everyone mind) and I do find that distasteful, as well as plain wrong for the good of Irish rugby. I would love more of them in Connacht, they have been very successful products for us.

That i said they should be in the schools team doesnt mean they are not wanted. If i said they shouldnt be playing for any irish team at all it would but i never said that and if you got that belief from my posts than sorry.
The issue is most exiles do not play in Ireland or for an irish side after irish youths. they are playing in the english system and unless they move to ireland after leaving school they will not be in the irish system. I dont see how my views in anyway have been distasteful at all

Hagz

RobbieRuns wrote: »

I think that you will find that OL was suggesting that the Exiles should NOT be part of the youths team, he thinks that they should be part of the schools team......... that makes no sense to me at all and I have put my case about this previously. That alone does suggest that they are not wanted by some on here (not by everyone mind) and I do find that distasteful, as well as plain wrong for the good of Irish rugby.

1. He hinted that perhaps they should be looked at in a different way, and the idea of combining them with the schools team was just a suggestion. People are entitled to their opinions and that by no means is an offensive one.
2. It doesn't even remotely suggest that they are not wanted....not even in the slightest.


In my opinion Robbie, you came into this debate all guns blazing from the get go. From the original post in which he claimed he wouldn't class them as the same as Youths your response was this

RobbieRuns wrote: »

You might not regard them as Youths and have an obvious dislike of young fellas who play for English schools...............

If that isn't a massive over-reaction I don't know what is. Quite the allegation.

Not only that but it seems that you didn't get his original point about some Exile players coming from highly regarded rugby schools

Even players from Irish Youths go to school!!!!! it is not just down to where you go to school and should not be held against anyone.

You seemed to think that he meant schools in general!! I think we all know that Youths players attend school...
---
This is a complete over-reaction to someone's inoffensive and tame opinion. Not in this debate have Exile's been put down or under-appreciated. Not once.

shuffol

Its like a tag team contest this:pac:

RobbieRuns

If there is nothing to get worked up over....... then why are you getting all wound up?

I am not on here to get into an argument, far from it, I come on here to find out what is going on in a sport that I love and have a great interest in as I get involved in kids rugby and love to see great young players come through. I have lots of friends whose children play for Connacht at all levels and follow them avidly. I did not agree with the comment earlier from OL and is my right, I gave my opinion (like you give yours). You said yourself that you would not put an Exile up as an example of a successful product of the Youths system, I disagree and someone else has listed plenty of examples of recent success stories.

Just because someone does not agree with you, no need to get hot under the collar. Thats not an attitude, thats just my opinion, have a good evening.

Hagz

RobbieRuns wrote: »

If there is nothing to get worked up over....... then why are you getting all wound up?

Because I don't like it when people throw around false accusations and mis-interpret other people's comments. If you don't want to get into an argument, then don't start off a post with a wild accusation like 'you obviously don't like fellas who play for English schools'. Hopefully this is where this stops.

And just to clear up what appears to be another mis-interpretation, not for your benefit but for mine

You said yourself that you would not put an Exile up as an example of a successful product of the Youths system

When I said this I meant that if I were to list off successful Exiles, I would discuss them in terms of products of the Exile system. I have every reason to get "hot under the collar" with the way yours and other posts have mis-interpreted my comments to my detriment.

Stanza2

ormond lad wrote: »

That i said they should be in the schools team doesnt mean they are not wanted. If i said they shouldnt be playing for any irish team at all it would but i never said that and if you got that belief from my posts than sorry.
The issue is most exiles do not play in Ireland or for an irish side after irish youths. they are playing in the english system and unless they move to ireland after leaving school they will not be in the irish system. I dont see how my views in anyway have been distasteful at all

I can see where the other poster was coming from, as it all started from the Exiles are not Youths comment, which is just patently wrong. I also disagree with your comment that the Exiles should play for the schools. I do however respect your opinion and you are very much entitled to it. It is always good to say sorry if offence was caused, so in the spirit of things I would also say sorry if my opinion upset anyone. Sometimes maybe it escalates from a stray comment that is picked up wrong. Hopefully we are all on the same side.

Fireball07

Personally, I'd tend to agree with OL...


I mean it's not really that important, you're quibbling over terms but when you talk about Youths players, you generally mean the players who come through the club system in Ireland.

Exiles don't. I mean...they're Exiles, it's not the same thing.

And obviously most Youths players go to school, but Schools players are players who play for the top rugby schools, the Senior Cup teams in their respective province.


Although, I went to school with a good few people who played for clubs at a pretty high level underage, and most of them would definitely train more than twice a week (someone said they'd be lucky to train twice a week). I think the Schools system might be better organised in general, but the clubs have come on a lot in the recent past, I think.

lurtz

Tim Robbins wrote: »

Generally a schools player will be training 4 times a week whereas a youths player will be lucky to be training twice a week. So the idea is to get an idea how good a player is you need to see him against players who train to a similar level.

To be honest, the IRFU etc have got a lot better at this.

There would have been times past where a youths player or even someone from a lower placed school (Newbridge) would just not have had a chance.

The structures are much better now.

Terenure run a youths and schools team and then mixed when they hit U20.

not true Tim,Terenure club and school are entirely separate things