Cyclists, rules of the road, a bit of cop on!

Beasty · 10-02-2013 07:49PM

Spook_ie wrote: »

It's Sunday
7 out of 8 disregarding the R of the R (just because they feel like it ) is still a shocking amount and no I don't think 7 out of 8 motorists disregard the R of the R like cyclists do.

In the UK, where enforcement is much stricter, 75% of motorists admit to breaking the speed limit

Add to that unbroken white line offences (which are much more common over here) and parking offences and I suspect you can easily get to a similar or higher proportion of Irish motorists admitting to breaking the law

Spook_ie · 10-02-2013 08:04PM

Beasty wrote: »

In the UK, where enforcement is much stricter, 75% of motorists admit to breaking the speed limit

Add to that unbroken white line offences (which are much more common over here) and parking offences and I suspect you can easily get to a similar or higher proportion of Irish motorists admitting to breaking the law

We're not questioning that some drivers break some laws, we are questioning why cyclists (87.5% of them) think they are entitled to just ignore the law

Beasty · 10-02-2013 08:29PM

Spook_ie wrote: »

We're not questioning that some drivers break some laws, we are questioning why cyclists (87.5% of them) think they are entitled to just ignore the law

That was not the question put in the survey your are referring to. I may go over the unbroken white line, but I would never claim to be "entitled to". If I get prosecuted I would try to defend myself, but accept whatever consequences come my way. Same with the now revoked laws compelling cyclists to use certain cycle lanes.

I am part of the 87.5% in the same way as I suspect you may occasionally break the speed limit or go over an unbroken white line or enter a yellow box when you're not supposed to when driving. I do not break red lights, I do not cycle the wrong way, I do not cycle in pedestrianised zones and I do not cycle on the footpath, but yes I do occasionally break the law.

Spook_ie · 10-02-2013 08:39PM

And the survey says

Yet the survey has revealed that 87.5% of the participants admit to breaking the rules of the road with regular, confident and experienced cyclists being less compliant.

So the more they cycle the less compliant they are, now that to me reads as the more regular, confident and experienced they think they are the more and more that they try to get away with.

As to white lines, interesting you seem to think that a vehicle will cross them as readily as a cyclist, hopefully you don't drive a car and cross white lines with the same abandon you seem to as a cyclist

Capt'n Midnight · 10-02-2013 08:47PM

fasttalkerchat wrote: »

It should be common sense, unfortunately it isn't.

Enforcement would be as simple as a guard sees a tailback being caused by a cyclist and has the power to issue a fine. The threat alone would be enough for the idiot minority to cop on. At the minute lack of rules means that cyclists can do what they want, some cause no problems at all, others shouldn't be on the road at all and if they were car drivers they wouldn't be.

Only if it works both ways.

And that means that all city centre rush hour traffic would have to pull over to let cyclists pass through. And those illegally blocking up bus lanes because they are turning left.

Yes it would be nice to have slow road users who are holding up traffic to pull over where it is safe to do so to allow others past. When you've got this working effectively for tractors, caravans, OAP's who completly block the road then come back and talk about extending this to other road users.

Of course you have to bear in mind that a lot of roads are designed to have side friction to slow things down. Stuff like parked cars, advertising, bus shelters and other street furniture serve to slow down traffic, - otherwise they wouldn't be allowed to be put near the side of the road. Again unless you'll have to remove all this stuff too before you can complain about the speed of cyclists along such streets.

Capt'n Midnight · 10-02-2013 08:54PM

fasttalkerchat wrote: »

There is an injured cyclist with a wrecked bike and a shocked car driver with a damaged car who could have a lot of hassle getting money from the cyclist to get the car fixed.

I know of a cyclist who had to pay for damage to a car. Something fell off the bike and the car hit it.

At the very worst the motorist would claim off the fund that covers the ~10% of motorists who aren't insured

In most court cases it's the motorist who is found at fault. As for bias any one want to guess what % of judges are motorists or cyclists ?

Spook_ie · 10-02-2013 08:59PM

Capt'n Midnight wrote: »

I know of a cyclist who had to pay for damage to a car. Something fell off the bike and the car hit it.

At the very worst the motorist would claim off the fund that covers the ~10% of motorists who aren't insured

In most court cases it's the motorist who is found at fault. As for bias any one want to guess what % of judges are motorists or cyclists ?

Lol
But the fund for uninsured motorists is paid for by the motorist via a levy on premiums, so you effectively think we should pay for the damage cyclists might cause to cars as well now when they execute illegal road manouvres

fasttalkerchat · 10-02-2013 09:05PM

Capt'n Midnight wrote: »

Only if it works both ways.

And that means that all city centre rush hour traffic would have to pull over to let cyclists pass through. And those illegally blocking up bus lanes because they are turning left.

I try to do that wherever possible. When I'm in slow traffic I adjust my road position slightly to the right to accommodate cyclists.

RandomName2 · 10-02-2013 09:08PM

Spook_ie wrote: »

Lol
But the fund for uninsured motorists is paid for by the motorist via a levy on premiums, so you effectively think we should pay for the damage cyclists might cause to cars as well now when they execute illegal road manouvres

Look, it's perfectly simple. A cyclist is not going to land a motorist in hospital soon, and is not going to do any significant damage to any motorised vehicle. If the cyclist does damage, he can be sued in the event that he was at fault.

Motorists need insurance because a motorist can wreck your vehicle, and indeed your life. Now, that's not to say that a wobbly cyclist who swerves across my path without indicating when I'm driving doesn't make me skip a heart beat and make me mad to boot, I'm just saying.

Incidentally I noticed that it's illegal to jaywalk in Ireland near a pedestrian crossing. We don't prosecute anyone for doing so, but I can imagine that it would come up in court if a pedestrian was attempting to sue a motorist for being hit, when in fact the pedestrian had not used the designated crossing which may have prevented such an accident from occurring.

Beasty · 10-02-2013 09:12PM

Spook_ie wrote: »

As to white lines, interesting you seem to think that a vehicle will cross them as readily as a cyclist, hopefully you don't drive a car and cross white lines with the same abandon you seem to as a cyclist

Haha - I've already said I do it when overtaking motor vehicles - I guess in the same way motor vehicles do when they overtake me. Actually overall cars tend to overtake me more often than I overtake them ...

Ray Palmer · 10-02-2013 09:15PM

fasttalkerchat wrote: »

I would be in favour of that if there was a better way to identify and prosecute those who cause an accident by going through a stop sign. That video mentions a $360 fine for going through a stop sign. Would that happen here? I don't think so.

No problem paying a proportional fine for going through a stop sign. If cars fines are brought up to that level. It is mentioning going through a stop sign in a reckless way and not like they are suggesting. An experience cyclist will do this

Wishbone Ash · 10-02-2013 09:32PM

Spook_ie wrote: »

no I don't think 7 out of 8 motorists disregard the R of the R like cyclists do

Head out to the M1 tomorrow and travel between junctions 3 and 4 at the posted speed limit. I can guarantee you that at least 95% of motorists will overtake you.

Or stand on the footpath at the junction of Drumcondra Road and Clonliffe Road. When the green 'straight ahead' arrow appears, watch the line of motor vehicles making a left turn onto Clonliffe Road through the pedestrian crossing showing a green man. Some drivers even think it appropriate to sound their horn at the pedestrians as they try to avoid being run over.

The cycle lane is to the left of the left turn lane. When the green 'straight ahead' arrow appears, I am entitled to proceed straight on but have to anticipate the actions of these idiots who don't know how to read a traffic signal. What is particularly alarming is the amount of SPSV drivers who do it.

opti0nal · 10-02-2013 09:48PM

Ray Palmer wrote: »

No problem paying a proportional fine for going through a stop sign.

I got honked for not coming to a complete stop at a stop sign while cycling......by a driver who was illegally in a bus lane.

Spook_ie · 10-02-2013 09:54PM

Wishbone Ash wrote: »

Head out to the M1 tomorrow and travel between junctions 3 and 4 at the posted speed limit. I can guarantee you that at least 95% of motorists will overtake you.

Or stand on the footpath at the junction of Drumcondra Road and Clonliffe Road. When the green 'straight ahead' arrow appears, watch the line of motor vehicles making a left turn onto Clonliffe Road through the pedestrian crossing showing a green man. Some drivers even think it appropriate to sound their horn at the pedestrians as they try to avoid being run over.

The cycle lane is to the left of the left turn lane. When the green 'straight ahead' arrow appears, I am entitled to proceed straight on but have to anticipate the actions of these idiots who don't know how to read a traffic signal. What is particularly alarming is the amount of SPSV drivers who do it.

The point being what? that motorists break the law there, what has that to do with the cyclists disregard of the law, or is it a case of you want to have any excuse for cyclists to break the law.

Bank robbers break the law does that mean we should all have the right to rob post offices.

As to Drumcondra
Would suggest then that there is a problem with the visibilty of the signals or the fact that there needs to be a complaint to the Garda, wouldn't take long to sort it at all, unlike the disregard of cyclists for the law which would probably be similar to being Canute, however, if the will was there cyclists could ( and should ) be shown the error of their ways by a hefty wedge being removed from their pockets

Spook_ie · 10-02-2013 09:56PM

opti0nal wrote: »

I got honked for not coming to a complete stop at a stop sign while cycling......by a driver who was illegally in a bus lane.

Do you mean you cycled through a Stop sign and the driver thought you were in danger of being hit, him being in the bus lane is neither here nor there, he was on the road and expected you to obey a a Stop sign

opti0nal · 10-02-2013 10:22PM

Spook_ie wrote: »

Do you mean you cycled through a Stop sign and the driver thought you were in danger of being hit, him being in the bus lane is neither here nor there, he was on the road and expected you to obey a a Stop sign

There was no danger of being hit, I simply slowed but did not come to a full stop as I turned into the bus lane, it was quite clear of any traffic when I looked. But at about the same time as I entered it, a queueing driver swung into the bus lane without any prior indication. He honked no doubt, to draw attention away from his own blatantly illegal behaviour.

Failing to indicate, and illegal bus lane use are one of the many ways drivers constantly break road traffic laws, even though they have passed tests and obtained licences.

opti0nal · 10-02-2013 10:34PM

Spook_ie wrote: »

As to Drumcondra
Would suggest then that there is a problem with the visibilty of the signals or the

There's a similar junction in Clontarf, near the Garda station. The right turn signal is abundantly clear and the separate straight on signal is unambiguous. When the many drivers i've seen go illegally against the right turn red signal, they can even see the green pedestrian signal as they drive through the pedestrian crossing.

It's very much deliberate law-breaking, just like speeding and amber light offences.

BostonB · 10-02-2013 11:12PM

You're wasting your time. Some people are only here to rant about cyclists regardless of logic.

Canis Lupus · 10-02-2013 11:27PM

opti0nal wrote: »

There was no danger of being hit, I simply slowed but did not come to a full stop as I turned into the bus lane, it was quite clear of any traffic when I looked. But at about the same time as I entered it, a queueing driver swung into the bus lane without any prior indication. He honked no doubt, to draw attention away from his own blatantly illegal behaviour.

Failing to indicate, and illegal bus lane use are one of the many ways drivers constantly break road traffic laws, even though they have passed tests and obtained licences.

As much as I hate to agree with Spook given the massive chip he has on his shoulder he's right that cyclists are technically supposed to stop at a stop sign so giving out about the illegal actions of a car whilst doing something illegal yourself should have been kept to yourself :P (I would say a stop sign is something I also ignore both in a car and on a bike if the way is clear).

(bus lanes and cars do often give me the heeby jeebies. I've been nearly splatted a couple of times by cars pulling out of queues into bus lanes to cut ahead to a left turn without indicating or looking in their mirrors)

galwaycyclist · 10-02-2013 11:33PM

Spook_ie wrote: »

Bank robbers break the law does that mean we should all have the right to rob post offices.

Actually that is pretty much how the guards treat traffic offences in this country. For instance the go safe cameras are only put at places where deaths have occured. The guards even advertise the locations.

That is equivalent to saying its ok to rob post offices provided you don't actually kill the post mistress. Only put her in fear of her life and sure theres no harm done - anyone for another doughnut?

CramCycle · 10-02-2013 11:35PM

Canis Lupus wrote: »

As much as I hate to agree with Spook given the massive chip he has on his shoulder he's right that cyclists are technically supposed to stop at a stop sign so giving out about the illegal actions of a car whilst doing something illegal yourself should have been kept to yourself :P (I would say a stop sign is something I also ignore both in a car and on a bike if the way is clear).

Cars have blind spots that bikes do not when approaching junctions. In a car, you have to stop to give anything in your blind spot a chance to become visible, its one of the most common near hit scenarios in the morning where you see cars approaching a stop sign and they don't see the bicycle or motorbike in its blindspot due to a support pillar in the car and nearly run them over as they cruise through the Stop sign. Its not of ass hat behaviour that alot of motorist have near collisions, its due to a lack of knowledge of limitations to their field of view. Something many do not realise until they either hit or nearly hit someone else. It is something that the RSA should be heavily focused on IMO.

alphabeat · 10-02-2013 11:41PM

Oh hai wrote: »

I have a question for cyclists...why do so few of you use the cycle lanes provided for you??

Because you touch yourself at night

opti0nal · 10-02-2013 11:47PM

Canis Lupus wrote: »

he's right that cyclists are technically supposed to stop at a stop sign so giving out about the illegal actions of a car whilst doing something illegal yourself should have been kept to yourself :

I could have omitted that detail, but I really wanted to highlight how the driver ignored his own multiple offences to blare his indignancy at my passing a stop sign at 8kph.

We'll never know precisely whether or not motorists break the law more or less than cyclists, although we do know that 78% break speed limits and that they regularly ignore amber traffic signals. We also know that almost all death and serious injury is caused by drivers.

What's most important is the high level of denial of any offending by drivers and the serious risk their behaviour poses to others.

Canis Lupus · 11-02-2013 12:01AM

opti0nal wrote: »

I could have omitted that detail, but I really wanted to highlight how the driver ignored his own multiple offences to blare his indignancy at my passing a stop sign at 8kph.

We'll never know precisely whether or not motorists break the law more or less than cyclists, although we do know that 78% break speed limits and that they regularly ignore amber traffic signals. We also know that almost all death and serious injury is caused by drivers.

What's most important is the high level of denial of any offending by drivers and the serious risk their behaviour poses to others.

I reckon every road user be that pedestrians, cyclists or motorists all break the rules once in a while and some people break the rules more often than others.

I do agree that there is more of a burden of care on motorists given that a 'mistake' by them can be much much worse but if we're sticking strictly to 'abiding by the rules' when using the roads then no one group has any particular merit for claiming the high ground, we're all as bad as each other.

Personally, I just wish we could all get along.

CramCycle · 11-02-2013 12:10AM

Canis Lupus wrote: »

Personally, I just wish we could all get along.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W5FfJ89rGPc

ezra_pound · 11-02-2013 12:26AM

I drive and cycle. What I find strange about anti cycle motorists is why cyclists annoy them so much. When I drive bad drivers annoyt the hell out of me. Cyclists breaking lights just doesn't really bother me. The standard of driving in this country is pretty shocking. Almost every time I'm in the car ill experience some eejit putting lives at danger because of ignorance or lasy habits. Do I experience the same with cyclists? Very rarely.

Should cyclists obey the law? Yes of Course.

Does it annoy me when they break lights? No.

Do I see drivers out on the road who should not be allied to drive? Every time I drive or cycle.

MrCreosote · 11-02-2013 12:35AM

ezra_pound wrote: »

I drive and cycle. What I find strange about anti cycle motorists is why cyclists annoy them so much. When I drive bad drivers annoyt the hell out of me. Cyclists breaking lights just doesn't really bother me. The standard of driving in this country is pretty shocking.

I actually think the standard of driving in Ireland is generally very good. There's a few headcases like everywhere.

The problem is compared to the UK, we're just not as good. But they're probably the best motorists in the world in fairness.

Spook_ie · 11-02-2013 05:02AM

opti0nal wrote: »

I could have omitted that detail, but I really wanted to highlight how the driver ignored his own multiple offences to blare his indignancy at my passing a stop sign at 8kph.

We'll never know precisely whether or not motorists break the law more or less than cyclists, although we do know that 78% break speed limits and that they regularly ignore amber traffic signals. We also know that almost all death and serious injury is caused by drivers.

What's most important is the high level of denial of any offending by drivers and the serious risk their behaviour poses to others.

Eh what high level of denial, the only denial on this thread would seem to emanate from cyclists, no one has ever said that drivers don't sometimes speed, or that they sometimes shoot lights when most people reckon they could stop, but cyclists, well they're just in total denial that they are doing anything wrong even when they KNOW it's against the law

Spook_ie · 11-02-2013 05:06AM

CramCycle wrote: »

Cars have blind spots that bikes do not when approaching junctions. In a car, you have to stop to give anything in your blind spot a chance to become visible, its one of the most common near hit scenarios in the morning where you see cars approaching a stop sign and they don't see the bicycle or motorbike in its blindspot due to a support pillar in the car and nearly run them over as they cruise through the Stop sign. Its not of ass hat behaviour that alot of motorist have near collisions, its due to a lack of knowledge of limitations to their field of view. Something many do not realise until they either hit or nearly hit someone else. It is something that the RSA should be heavily focused on IMO.

Ohhh I'm gonna be so rich, I just invented a cure for blind spots...

http://pad2.whstatic.com/images/thumb/a/af/CrackNeck-10.jpg/550px-CrackNeck-10.jpg

Now all I need do is get ALL traffic users to buy one, yes including cyclists, because a large portion of them have no idea about checking the blind spot behind them, proof, just check the myriad of helmet cam recordings and count the number that actually look behind themselves

Canis Lupus · 11-02-2013 05:38AM

Spook_ie wrote: »

Ohhh I'm gonna be so rich, I just invented a cure for blind spots...

http://pad2.whstatic.com/images/thumb/a/af/CrackNeck-10.jpg/550px-CrackNeck-10.jpg

Now all I need do is get ALL traffic users to buy one, yes including cyclists, because a large portion of them have no idea about checking the blind spot behind them, proof, just check the myriad of helmet cam recordings and count the number that actually look behind themselves

Weird... From a personal perspective when driving and cycling I always see cyclists check their blindspots before making a manoeuvre... I know you like trolling cyclists but there wouldn't be many cyclists on the road if we didn't check our blindspots before manoeurving. Cars would be running us over left right and centre. I think maybe you're forgetting that the human eye doesn't face in one direction like a camera therefore we don't actually have to turn our heads 180 degrees like some kind of freakish owl in order to see our blindspot.

But hey, sorry for presenting a reasonable argument. I won't interupt again if you like, I need to cycle home soon and I need to focus on all the lights I'll break and old grannies I'll mow down whilst hurling abuse and maybe rocks at mothers with young children in the car. You know, the stuff us cyclists do

Cyclists, rules of the road, a bit of cop on!

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