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Are Golliwogs racist?

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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 30 baaah


    Lelantos wrote: »
    Is that why we don't see the Black & White Minstrels on tv anymore?

    I can remember this programme from the 60s on BBC when I was in my teens. It was very popular , mainly for the music (not my thing by the way !), but my parents (RIP) loved the singing. I believe it went on until the early 80s.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 304 ✭✭The Road Runner


    Utter rubbish!
    Please define OUR culture , actually please define who the OUR are!

    aaaaaaaand the bait is taken hook and line. but you already knew that didn't you, ol Wiley ;)


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 638 ✭✭✭flanders1979


    I never thought it was racist 25 or more years ago so why would I think it now. God only know what feminists think of the famous five.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,324 ✭✭✭RGDATA!


    Henlars67 wrote: »
    They are considered racist, no idea why. Some well-off white person who spends their lives getting offended on behalf of others probably decided that black people should be offended by them and that was that.

    If there had been a boards.co.uk in the late 70s you'd have had posters moaning how they weren't allowed say Paddy or Mick anymore, or tell jokes where the Irish are always synonymous with idiots.

    Unfortunately for them they didn't have that great slogan "Political Correctness Gone Mad" to rally behind. The upside for us is that time passed, and Paddy/Mick/irish jokes are no longer commonplace, nor generally acceptable there, so you mostly likely will never have to face it.

    As for "spending your life getting offended on behalf of others", that's just a way to make people with a bit of empathy and regard to our own history sound pathetic. Guess what, some people don't spend their whole lives crusading on it, but sometimes, when they encounter it, they take a minute to make a point and slowly things change...


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 5,541 ✭✭✭Smidge


    Bit o'Noddy research was needed, and came across this delightful article from the Independent no less.

    Apparently "When negotiations began two years ago to screen a television version of the Noddy stories in America, Big Ears ran into problems. The network showing the programmes "could not be seen to sustain discrimination" against people with large ears. So they called him White Beard instead."

    AfAICR wasn't there something similar with "Thomas the tank engine" in the states also?
    They don't call the "Fat Controller" the "Fat Controller":eek:

    He's called something odd(cant recall at the mo)

    had a quick google, he is called "Sir Topham Hat"

    Weirdos


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 19,919 ✭✭✭✭MetzgerMeister


    Smidge wrote: »
    AfAICR wasn't there something similar with "Thomas the tank engine" in the states also?
    They don't call the "Fat Controller" the "Fat Controller":eek:

    He's called something odd(cant recall at the mo)

    The normal controller? :pac:


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 5,541 ✭✭✭Smidge


    The normal controller? :pac:

    "The Controller.... who went to weight watchers and is no longer ....Fat":P


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 19,919 ✭✭✭✭MetzgerMeister


    Smidge wrote: »
    "The Controller.... who went to weight watchers and is no longer ....Fat":P

    Not at all!! To Europeans, he's fat....to Americans he's normal ;)


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,232 ✭✭✭ITS_A_BADGER


    Not at all!! To Europeans, he's fat....to Americans he's normal ;)

    The fit controller


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,272 ✭✭✭Henlars67


    Sir Topham Hatt is the Fat Controllers name now


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 5,668 ✭✭✭nlgbbbblth


    baaah wrote: »
    I can remember this programme from the 60s on BBC when I was in my teens. It was very popular , mainly for the music (not my thing by the way !), but my parents (RIP) loved the singing. I believe it went on until the early 80s.

    1978.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,427 ✭✭✭Morag


    eeny meany mineie mo...catch a ni**er by the toe.....

    God damn parents...

    Kid are now taught catch a tigger by the toe.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,427 ✭✭✭Morag


    The term Wog which is a racist term apprently comes from golliwog.
    Tbh growing up in an Ireland was was nearly completely white (Phil lynnot aside)
    I never once tought that a golliwog was a snide take on a black person.
    They were like talking Teddy bears, or a goblin in the Enid Bylton books.

    The first Golliwog appears in a story in 1895 as a black gnome and certainly not a person.

    http://www.ferris.edu/jimcrow/golliwog/
    The golliwog image, popular in England and other European countries, is found on a variety of items, including postcards, jam jars, paperweights, brooches, wallets, perfume bottles, wooden puzzles, sheet music, wall paper, pottery, jewelry, greeting cards, clocks, and dolls. For the past four decades Europeans have debated whether the Golliwog is a lovable icon or a racist symbol.

    The Golliwog began life as a story book character created by Florence Kate Upton. Upton was born in 1873 in Flushing, New York, to English parents who had emigrated to the United States in 1870. She was the second of four children. When Upton was fourteen, her father died and, shortly thereafter, the family returned to England. For several years she honed her skills as an artist. Unable to afford art school, Upton illustrated her own children's book in the hope of raising tuition money.

    In 1895, her book, entitled The Adventures of Two Dutch Dolls, was published in London. Upton drew the illustrations, and her mother, Bertha Upton, wrote the accompanying verse. The book's main characters were two Dutch dolls, Peg and Sarah Jane, and the Golliwogg. The story begins with Peg and Sara Jane, on the loose in a toy shop, encountering "a horrid sight, the blackest gnome." The little black "gnome" wore bright red trousers, a red bow tie on a high collared white shirt, and a blue swallow-tailed coat. He was a caricature of American black faced minstrels -- in effect, the caricature of a caricature. She named him Golliwogg.

    The Golliwogg was based on a Black minstrel doll that Upton had played with as a small child in New York. The then-nameless "Negro minstrel doll" was treated roughly by the Upton children. Upton reminiscenced: "Seated upon a flowerpot in the garden, his kindly face was a target for rubber balls..., the game being to knock him over backwards. It pains me now to think of those little rag legs flying ignominiously over his head, yet that was a long time ago, and before he had become a personality.... We knew he was ugly!" (Johnson).

    I guess European take on the Golliwog had been very different then the Americas were vast slavery happened.
    During the first half of the twentieth century, the Golliwog doll was a favorite children's soft toy in Europe. Only the Teddy Bear exceeded the Golliwog in popularity. Small children slept with their black dolls. Many white Europeans still speak with nostalgic sentiment about their childhood gollies. Sir Kenneth Clark, the noted art historian, claimed that the Golliwogs of his childhood were, "examples of chivalry, far more persuasive than the unconvincing Knights of the Arthurian legend" (Johnson, n.d., p. 3). The French composer Claude Debussy was so enthralled by the Golliwogs in his daughter's books that one movement of his Children's Corner Suite is entitled "The Golliwog's Cakewalk" (Johnson, n.d., p. 3). The Golliwog was a mixture of bravery, adventurousness, and love -- for white children.

    In the 1960s relations between blacks and whites in England were often characterized by conflict. This racial antagonism resulted from many factors, including: the arrival of increasing numbers of colored immigrants; minorities' unwillingness to accommodate themselves to old patterns of racial and ethnic subordination; and, the fear among many whites that England was losing its national character. British culture was also influenced by images -- often brutal -- of racial conflict occurring in the United States.

    In this climate the Golliwog doll and other Golliwog emblems were seen as symbols of racial insensitivity. Many books containing Golliwogs were withdrawn from public libraries, and the manufacturing of Golliwog dolls dwindled as the demand for Golliwogs decreased. Many items with Golliwog images were destroyed. Despite much criticism, James Robertson & Sons did not discontinue its use of the Golliwog as a mascot. The Camden Committee for Community Relations led a petition drive for signatures to send to the Robertson Company. The National Committee on Racism in Children's Books also publicly criticized Robertson's use of the Golly in its advertising. Other organizations called for a boycott of Robertson's products; nevertheless, the company has continued to use the Golliwog as its trademark in many countries, including the United Kingdom, although it was removed from Robertson's packaging in the United States, Canada, and Hong Kong.

    In many ways the campaign to ban Golliwogs was similar to the American campaign against Little Black Sambo. In both cases racial minorities and sympathetic whites argued that these images demeaned blacks and hurt the psyches of minority children. Civil rights organizations led both campaigns, and white civic and political leaders eventually joined the effort to ban the offensive caricatures. In the anti-Golliwog campaign, numerous British parliamentarians publicly lambasted the Golliwog image as racist, including, Tony Benn, Shirley Williams, and David Owen (MacGregor, 1992, p. 29).


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,518 ✭✭✭stefan idiot jones


    http://xo.typepad.com/blog/2007/06/****_brown.html Although I am glad that this particular colour has ben renamed to 'chesnut fondue' or some other crap, I still call a blackboard a blackboard and a refuse sack is still a black bin bag. My brother had a gollywog doll in the seventies.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 6,327 ✭✭✭Madam_X


    Don't know anyone who has a problem with "blackboard" or "black bag". It's just a myth that these cause offence.
    nlgbbbblth wrote: »
    Complete myth usually uttered by people who say "it's political correctness gone mad".

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Political_correctness#False_accusations

    Nothing wrong with using black.

    1) Ever heard of James Brown?
    SAY IT LOUD I'M BLACK AND I'M PROUD.

    2) Black Music awards

    3) A book I saw recently - "Growing up black in Britain".
    Young, Gifted and Black - famous song.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 34,809 ✭✭✭✭smash


    Madam_X wrote: »
    Young, Gifted and Black - famous song.
    BET - Black Entertainment Telivision


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,518 ✭✭✭stefan idiot jones


    Madam_X wrote: »
    Don't know anyone who has a problem with "blackboard" or "black bag". It's just a myth that these cause offence.
    In the U.K about ten years ago letters were ditributed within schools to parents advising them of the taboo names.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,232 ✭✭✭ITS_A_BADGER


    Black betty ram jam - famous song using black in the title


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 2,871 ✭✭✭rolliepoley


    In the seventies we used to have this dog a black labradore and we called him N*****, the hole street new him and called him by that name, we were none the wiser back then.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 18,239 ✭✭✭✭WindSock


    You called your dog cu.ntfu.cker?


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 46,938 ✭✭✭✭Nodin


    In the U.K about ten years ago letters were ditributed within schools to parents advising them of the taboo names.

    No, they weren't.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 5,736 ✭✭✭Irish Guitarist


    I used to have a massive golliwog that had his own tricycle. There's a picture of me when I was about five years old sitting on the trike with him in a photo album somewhere. The golliwog is almost as big as me.

    He definitely wasn't racist. If he had been I don't think he would have let me sit on his trike.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,880 ✭✭✭Canis Lupus


    WindSock wrote: »
    You called your dog cu.ntfu.cker?

    I think you meant Nagger.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,790 ✭✭✭up for anything


    Morag wrote: »
    What do you think, are golliwogs linked intrinsically to imperialism, genocide, slavery and racism or just a kids toy?

    I don't think that they are but I know that as a child back in the 60s and one who was sent home from Africa to be educated here in Ireland that I was often asked by the kids I went to school with what it was like to live in golliwog land. So yes, although they were too young to know, it was being used as a pejorative term for black people back then.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,435 ✭✭✭mandrake04


    In the seventies we used to have this dog a black labradore and we called him ******, the hole street new him and called him by that name, we were none the wiser back then.

    Did you call him after the pilot's dog in the movie Dambusters?

    True story that the dog got hit by a car and died the day before the mission his owner buried him just before takeoff and they used the dogs name as the code word that the mission was a success.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 3,065 ✭✭✭crazygeryy


    is this racist?

    http://i.imgur.com/cGl5Als.jpg


    ps think scooby doo


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,900 ✭✭✭The J Stands for Jay


    Morag wrote: »

    I guess European take on the Golliwog had been very different then the Americas were vast slavery happened.

    Eh?


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 34,809 ✭✭✭✭smash


    I'm pretty sure I have a Lyons minstrel at home somewhere.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 6,824 ✭✭✭Qualitymark


    I never thought of gollywogs as representing humans, any more than teddybears. To a small child, they were a loved toy, but a kind of otherworldly being, not anything like a person.

    By the way, gollywogs were originally made by sailors on the long voyage home from... can't remember where, offhand; and sold as toys for a few extra quid on top of the sailors' wages.

    But it's obviously right that if people see them as a caricature of how their own particular race looks, the toys should be relegated to the past. We wouldn't like it if a nasty caricature of our own race or nationality was a common toy, after all.


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  • Site Banned Posts: 78 ✭✭The Reamer


    HTML5! wrote: »
    Chocolate is racist!

    Especially chocolate mice! They had a reddish, pink goo inside them, not entirely unlike blood and organs.

    They were trying to say: black people are rodents!

    Ah, tis the political correctness Joe. Tis terrible Joe.


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