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Croke Park II preliminary Talks started today

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Comments

  • #1082
    nesf
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 27,644 ✭✭✭✭nesf


    not yet wrote: »
    Yes I agree with ''parts'' of. So why do ISME, IBEC THE INDO AND Eddie fculking Hobbs want to cut the average PS worker. They need to sort out professors on 250k consultants 250k etc etc......But do these people not understand cutting Teachers and nurses etc serves no purpose other then keep the whingers happy.

    Professors earn about half that.


  • #1083
    barneystinson
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,686 ✭✭✭barneystinson


    Farmer Pudsey wrote: »
    Where this nepotism really shows is when tempory or shortterm work is available and especially when this may lead to a fulltime job down the line.

    In tempory jobs where it is for summer or holiday work a relative or a friend(not always) often seems to get these jobs.

    I'll tell you of my personal experience of these temporary summer positions - every summer TCO's (temporary clerical officers) are hired into the office I work in, usually about 7/8.

    Many of my colleagues who have kids in college (or nowadays maybe kids who are finished college and unemployed) get them to apply. The last couple of summers 1 or 2 of the 7/8 TCO's have been the children of people who work in the office - hardly a surprising outcome considering how many people there had kids who applied.

    The application process is an online psychometric test first of all, administered centrally by people who couldn't possibly know whose kids these applicants are. I know several people (public servants and private sector workers) whose kids got the job one year, and then failed at the application stage the 2nd time round, despite the fact that now their CV included experience doing that exact job, and they answered similar questions the same way in the psychometric tests.

    Try and tell me that is not an objective recruitment process.


  • #1084
    p1akuw47h5r3it
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,001 ✭✭✭p1akuw47h5r3it


    not yet wrote: »
    Yes I agree with ''parts'' of. So why do ISME, IBEC THE INDO AND Eddie fculking Hobbs want to cut the average PS worker. They need to sort out professors on 250k consultants 250k etc etc......But do these people not understand cutting Teachers and nurses etc serves no purpose other then keep the whingers happy.

    Teachers are still fairly well paid in fairness. Nurses obviously not so. And why do you care what Eddie Hobbs has to say, he's pretty much a nobody nowadays? The Indo likewise.

    I don't really know why the ISME and IBEC care all that much about the Public Sector and frontline staff particularly. They should be more interested in trying to get the government to lower rates for business' and maybe things like the min wage etc.

    The reason imo that top paying jobs have taken the same cuts as frontline staff is due to the power of the PS Unions. The government imo believes that any further cuts to these positions will lead to strikes as Unions will say it's unfair or whatever. There is also more money to be saved cutting frontline staff wages due to there being a greater number of people in these positions. The unions are just as big a problem as anyone.


  • #1085
    Godge
    Closed Accounts Posts: 21,727 ✭✭✭✭Godge


    DanDan6592 wrote: »
    .

    .

    The reason imo that top paying jobs have taken the same cuts as frontline staff is due to the power of the PS Unions. The government imo believes that any further cuts to these positions will lead to strikes as Unions will say it's unfair or whatever. There is also more money to be saved cutting frontline staff wages due to there being a greater number of people in these positions. The unions are just as big a problem as anyone.


    Sorry, explain to me which part of the Financial Emergency Acts show the same cuts applied to everyone. I have read them and they show people at the top taking the bigger cuts.

    http://www.oireachtas.ie/viewdoc.asp?DocID=-1&StartDate=1+January+2009&CatID=87


    They are listed here under the 2009 Acts.

    Have a good read before posting any more rubbish.


  • #1086
    p1akuw47h5r3it
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,001 ✭✭✭p1akuw47h5r3it


    Godge wrote: »
    Sorry, explain to me which part of the Financial Emergency Acts show the same cuts applied to everyone. I have read them and they show people at the top taking the bigger cuts.

    http://www.oireachtas.ie/viewdoc.asp?DocID=-1&StartDate=1+January+2009&CatID=87


    They are listed here under the 2009 Acts.

    Have a good read before posting any more rubbish.

    Oh whatever. They've taken bigger cuts all need to take a bit more. I was basically agreeing with that other poster. Chill out.


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  • #1087
    Head The Wall
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,892 ✭✭✭Head The Wall


    woodoo wrote: »
    Why do people automatically think they are getting something they are not deserving of. It was decided to pay staff on an incremental scale rather than just a set amount that doesn't change. Why is it assumed that in the absence of the incremental scale staff would make do with the bottom of the scale. People take on the job with the full scale in mind.

    If a company was to decided to create a role in their company for say a bookkeeper and they decide to use the incremental scale. So year one it is agree to pay €30,000, year two €31000 and then year three €32000, from year 4 on it will stay at €32,000 unless a general pay-rise is implemented. In a non incremental option they could choose to pay€31,925 every year. Both methods cost the same over a 40 year period.

    Why do people assume that if no incremental scale was used that people would only be paid €30,000. In the example i used above the vast majority of the time in the role will be paid at €32,000 so this is obviously the amount the company deemed suitable for an experienced bookkeeper. The non incremental option would have just paid them at 31,925. Both methods would have costed the company the same overall.

    In my job the bottom of the scale is nowhere near enough money for what i do. I accepted the job because of the final salary at the top of the scale. Even though it would take me a number of years to get there. If they stopped my increments halfway up the scale then they have reneged on my contract and are not paying me what we both agreed the day i was hired provided i preform as desired.
    woodoo wrote: »
    If they satisfy the criteria on their contract they should get their increments.

    If people are under-preforming then there is a case to not pay increments. My point is in relation to the call to do away with increments.

    Woodoo, it's obvious you don't understand increments. You think that everyone is worth the top of the scale but they just have to put in the time to get there and until then they are underpaid. What about the person that is crap and will never reach the top of their scale, of course this was never an issue before when pretty much everyone was "performing" above expectations.

    Now when they start trying to actually make people earn their increments the PS seem to get very possessive of them. And that's leaving aside the fact that the country is running a multi Billion Euro Deficit.

    Godge wrote: »
    Name and shame or this is just made-up rubbish slandering people.

    Here you go Godge

    TDs break cronyism pledge by giving jobs to family members

    Godge wrote: »
    Well, if you were living in the USA for ten years, you are hardly well-placed to comment on what happened in the boom or since.

    Ever heard of the Internet and telephones, people visiting on holidays. I lived in the US during the boom years as well and I was fully aware of the madness happening in Ireland.


  • #1088
    ballyharpat
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,872 ✭✭✭ballyharpat


    Head The Wall wrote: »
    Woodoo, it's obvious you don't understand increments. You think that everyone is worth the top of the scale but they just have to put in the time to get there and until then they are underpaid. What about the person that is crap and will never reach the top of their scale, of course this was never an issue before when pretty much everyone was "performing" above expectations.

    Now when they start trying to actually make people earn their increments the PS seem to get very possessive of them. And that's leaving aside the fact that the country is running a multi Billion Euro Deficit.




    Here you go Godge

    TDs break cronyism pledge by giving jobs to family members




    Ever heard of the Internet and telephones, people visiting on holidays. I lived in the US during the boom years as well and I was fully aware of the madness happening in Ireland.

    And Godge, in case you didn't realize, have you ever heard of the saying 'can't see the forest for the trees' I was getting a much clearer picture of what was happening in Ireland, than most of those living here.

    As regards cutting the top earners, yes it should be done, but take a look at the wages of low skilled workers in the public sector, they are the majority of earners and this is the biggest pay gap between private and public sector in the same line of work....

    The above poster saying how will they pay their mortgages....what about the private sector worker that can't pay their mortgages because their tax has risen so much to continue the high rate of pay for the public sector? what about the shops that are closing because their customers no longer have discretionary income to spend in those shops? then these people are unemployed and cannot spend any money because they are broke and it's a vicious cycle, which you are saying is ok as long as the public sector are protected and they can pay their mortgages....


  • #1089
    creedp
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,217 ✭✭✭creedp


    Head The Wall wrote: »
    Here you go Godge

    TDs break cronyism pledge by giving jobs to family members


    What has what TDs do got to do with CPA and public sector employment in general? TDs can hire who they hell they like and if you have a problem with that take it up with your TD. See how far that gets you.

    I find it strange that serious analysts on here find it difficult to grap how children follow their parents and take up the same careers. This is why it is no surprise that the children of Gardai become gardai or childre of doctors become doctors or children of farmers becoem farmers etc etc. How is this phenomenon still a mystery to some who'd prefer to live the MI5 life trying to work out how an underhand civil servant gets their kids into the public sector. Or more to the point just looking for another reason to bellyache


  • #1090
    Godge
    Closed Accounts Posts: 21,727 ✭✭✭✭Godge


    DanDan6592 wrote: »
    Oh whatever. They've taken bigger cuts all need to take a bit more. I was basically agreeing with that other poster. Chill out.

    When you consider that some at the top have taken around 25% of a cut when the pension levy is factored in and some of those at the bottom have only taken around 5%, then there is a bit of a difference to be pointed out.


  • #1091
    Cookie_Monster
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 24,651 ✭✭✭✭Cookie_Monster


    fall wrote: »
    So cut the wages and then people will pay their mortgages with what?

    that's not anybody's problem except those individuals.


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  • #1092
    Godge
    Closed Accounts Posts: 21,727 ✭✭✭✭Godge


    ballyharpat wrote: »
    And Godge, in case you didn't realize, have you ever heard of the saying 'can't see the forest for the trees' I was getting a much clearer picture of what was happening in Ireland, than most of those living here.

    As regards cutting the top earners, yes it should be done, but take a look at the wages of low skilled workers in the public sector, they are the majority of earners and this is the biggest pay gap between private and public sector in the same line of work....

    The above poster saying how will they pay their mortgages....what about the private sector worker that can't pay their mortgages because their tax has risen so much to continue the high rate of pay for the public sector? what about the shops that are closing because their customers no longer have discretionary income to spend in those shops? then these people are unemployed and cannot spend any money because they are broke and it's a vicious cycle, which you are saying is ok as long as the public sector are protected and they can pay their mortgages....


    Well, it is quite clear from the scurrilous accusations you were making about nepotism in the public sector that you don't understand how public service appointments are made. The linking of that lack of understanding to 10 years spent in the USA is a fairly logical leap. FWIW I obtained several public service jobs without any hint of nepotism and through open competition. I won't talk about my current role but in two previous private sector jobs I got them through a friend and in another I was approached for the role by someone who knew me by reputation. Hardly open and fair but then again I am not complaining.

    I keep hearing the same guff about tax rises. We have the lowest property tax in Europe. Our income tax and social security charges on those on the average wage are the lowest in Europe. We still need to increase those taxes, unfortunately our government doesn't have the balls to do it because we have taxed higher earners too much.

    As regards shops, there is a structural fundamental change happening in retail. It has been building for several years but hidden by the boom. When total sales were going up by 15% a year, those increasing by 5% a year thought they were doing well. When sales collapsed, they were the ones who suffered. The likes of HMV are clear losers in this regard. They have been left behind by the internet revolution.

    Anyway bellyaching about mystical nepotism in the public sector and what went wrong with this country are off-topic to a discussion about CPII so I won't dwell on them anymore.

    P.S. If you could see the forest for the trees, why did you come back?
    P.P.S. It is interesting to note the number of people who I know on here and outside who have come back from the US or Australia because the grass really wasn't greener or when things went wrong realised this wasn't such a bad place to be.


  • #1093
    Good loser
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 3,283 ✭✭✭Good loser


    Cookie_Monster wrote: »
    that's not anybody's problem except those individuals.

    I remember, in the good days, Noel Doran complaining that his members when married to guards, teachers etc couldn't afford to buy houses unless they were paid more.

    Now that house prices have halved he never mentions that issue.

    Isn't it a fact though that it's so much cheaper for couples to buy houses nowadays that they can live on much lower incomes, for example the new nurse recruits.


  • #1094
    creedp
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,217 ✭✭✭creedp


    Good loser wrote: »
    Now that house prices have halved he never mentions that issue.


    Not that is should be deciding factor .. but if they bought before the property collapse its a moot point - obviously applies to all not just PS


  • #1095
    not yet
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,008 ✭✭✭not yet


    Cookie_Monster wrote: »
    that's not anybody's problem except those individuals.

    What a shocking comment, It only serves to prove the contempt for PS workers some people have, Do you honestly believe it would be good for the country if 1000s of workers could not afford to pay their mortgages.


  • #1096
    not yet
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,008 ✭✭✭not yet


    Good loser wrote: »
    I remember, in the good days, Noel Doran complaining that his members when married to guards, teachers etc couldn't afford to buy houses unless they were paid more.

    Now that house prices have halved he never mentions that issue.

    Isn't it a fact though that it's so much cheaper for couples to buy houses nowadays that they can live on much lower incomes, for example the new nurse recruits.

    Listen up.....

    Since the housing crash i.e cheap property there has been an embargo on PS recruitment, so it stands to reason that a lot of PS workers bought at the boom prices.


  • #1097
    Godge
    Closed Accounts Posts: 21,727 ✭✭✭✭Godge


    Good loser wrote: »
    I remember, in the good days, Noel Doran complaining that his members when married to guards, teachers etc couldn't afford to buy houses unless they were paid more.

    Now that house prices have halved he never mentions that issue.

    Isn't it a fact though that it's so much cheaper for couples to buy houses nowadays that they can live on much lower incomes, for example the new nurse recruits.

    Who is Noel Doran?


  • #1098
    Pappa Charlie
    Closed Accounts Posts: 853 ✭✭✭Pappa Charlie


    not yet wrote: »

    What a shocking comment, It only serves to prove the contempt for PS workers some people have, Do you honestly believe it would be good for the country if 1000s of workers could not afford to pay their mortgages.

    it's time for an all out strike in the public service, the goverment are clueless and it would show Europe that the Irish people have had enough and the private sector should support the strikes


  • #1099
    K-9
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 43,316 ✭✭✭✭K-9


    not yet wrote: »
    What a shocking comment, It only serves to prove the contempt for PS workers some people have, Do you honestly believe it would be good for the country if 1000s of workers could not afford to pay their mortgages.

    10's of thousands already are, many still working but struggling due to pay cuts and tax increases and I'm sure some in the Public Service. If people paid bubble prices for houses that isn't really a wage issue though, that's a separate one for the banks and Government to address.

    Mad Men's Don Draper : What you call love was invented by guys like me, to sell nylons.



  • #1100
    Pappa Charlie
    Closed Accounts Posts: 853 ✭✭✭Pappa Charlie


    K-9 wrote: »

    10's of thousands already are, many still working but struggling due to pay cuts and tax increases and I'm sure some in the Public Service. If people paid bubble prices for houses that isn't really a wage issue though, that's a separate one for the banks and Government to address.

    Don't forget they bought houses of private sector speculators and developers and were given mortgages on the strenght og their wages so it is a wages issue!


  • #1101
    not yet
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,008 ✭✭✭not yet


    K-9 wrote: »
    10's of thousands already are, many still working but struggling due to pay cuts and tax increases and I'm sure some in the Public Service. If people paid bubble prices for houses that isn't really a wage issue though, that's a separate one for the banks and Government to address.

    Yes, I understand that, But to Just say fcuk them let them suffer for it is nasty.

    We all know people are struggling with mortgages-bills etc but to cut a PS worker on 30-40k just to keep people happy is wrong.


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  • #1102
    not yet
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,008 ✭✭✭not yet


    not yet wrote: »
    Yes, I understand that, But to Just say fcuk them let them suffer for it is nasty.

    We all know people are struggling with mortgages-bills etc but to cut a PS worker on 30-40k just to keep people happy is wrong.

    And thats all it is...keeping a section of of people happy, The 1 billion extra they are looking for in cp2 could be saved by creating jobs, and tackling the black economy. That's without fraud in the welfare system.


  • #1103
    K-9
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 43,316 ✭✭✭✭K-9


    Pappa Charlie wrote: »
    Don't forget they bought houses of private sector speculators and developers and were given mortgages on the strenght og their wages so it is a wages issue!

    Not really, they paid bubble prices for the house, its a wider issue than just wages and is more to do with debt and high mortgages. If an employee gets into mortage difficulty it isn't the HSE's problem for example.

    Mad Men's Don Draper : What you call love was invented by guys like me, to sell nylons.



  • #1104
    Pappa Charlie
    Closed Accounts Posts: 853 ✭✭✭Pappa Charlie


    K-9 wrote: »

    Not really, they paid bubble prices for the house, its a wider issue than just wages and is more to do with debt and high mortgages. If an employee gets into mortage difficulty it isn't the HSE's problem for example.

    They had no choice to pay bubble prices with private sector speculators and mad construction workers wages much of which was paid in cash by speculators and contractors, but now ordinary workers on modest wages are the easy target, why not get every worker in the country to submit their p60 for the last 5 years and get revenue to apply cuts to those who clearly have not been cut but are saying that they are and I know quite a few private sector workers who have not been cut!


  • #1105
    Farmer Pudsey
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,326 ✭✭✭Farmer Pudsey


    not yet wrote: »
    And thats all it is...keeping a section of of people happy, The 1 billion extra they are looking for in cp2 could be saved by creating jobs, and tackling the black economy. That's without fraud in the welfare system.

    The reality is that it is the revenue comissioners job to collect tax. So this is a PS issue if our black economy is too large. Private sector employers are always looking for the black economy to be reduced.

    However there is also a second reality that is there will always be a certain amount of a black economy and the higher taxes are the larger it gets.

    I agree too about welfare fraud needs to be reduced again it is a PS job to police it this is not blame that can be attached to the private sector. The reality is because of high PS wages and work ing methods the government may consider that policing costs are higher than the return??

    K-9 wrote: »
    Not really, they paid bubble prices for the house, its a wider issue than just wages and is more to do with debt and high mortgages. If an employee gets into mortage difficulty it isn't the HSE's problem for example.

    We all had choices now I have posted elsewhere that the level of private debt in ireland is a huge issue and so called moral hazard issue are being used as an excuse not to resiolve them Our bankrupty laws are ( even after the recent modification) amoung the most punishing in Europe. Again this is where Government choices to protect a certion sectional intrest is not in the commom good.
    Pappa Charlie wrote: »
    They had no choice to pay bubble prices with private sector speculators and mad construction workers wages much of which was paid in cash by speculators and contractors, but now ordinary workers on modest wages are the easy target, why not get every worker in the country to submit their p60 for the last 5 years and get revenue to apply cuts to those who clearly have not been cut but are saying that they are and I know quite a few private sector workers who have not been cut!

    There is a huge issue between modest wages in the public and private sector. However What about all the private sector workers taht lost there jobs that are now unemployed or have emigrated. The jobs reductions in the public service are minimal compared to this


  • #1106
    K-9
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 43,316 ✭✭✭✭K-9


    Pappa Charlie wrote: »
    They had no choice to pay bubble prices with private sector speculators and mad construction workers wages much of which was paid in cash by speculators and contractors, but now ordinary workers on modest wages are the easy target, why not get every worker in the country to submit their p60 for the last 5 years and get revenue to apply cuts to those who clearly have not been cut but are saying that they are and I know quite a few private sector workers who have not been cut!

    We aren't really dealing with your personal wish list though, we are talking about realistic options, or at least should be.

    Mad Men's Don Draper : What you call love was invented by guys like me, to sell nylons.



  • #1107
    Pappa Charlie
    Closed Accounts Posts: 853 ✭✭✭Pappa Charlie


    K-9 wrote: »

    We aren't really dealing with your personal wish list though, we are talking about realistic options, or at least should be.

    So only your options are realistic? And any public sector poster on this forum is unrealistic! I love the balance in this forum!


  • #1108
    Godge
    Closed Accounts Posts: 21,727 ✭✭✭✭Godge


    Farmer Pudsey wrote: »




    There is a huge issue between modest wages in the public and private sector. However What about all the private sector workers taht lost there jobs that are now unemployed or have emigrated. The jobs reductions in the public service are minimal compared to this


    How do you define "minimmal compared to this"

    total employment fell from 2,113.9 to 1,787.9 (in 000s), see CSO for figures, a reduction of 15.4%.

    Public sector numbers are falling from around 320,000 to 282,000 by the end of this year, a reduction of 11.875%. Now I am not saying that the public sector has suffered as much and I may be out with some of my figures but I don't think "minimal" is the appropriate word to use in comparison.


  • #1109
    K-9
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 43,316 ✭✭✭✭K-9


    Pappa Charlie wrote: »
    So only your options are realistic? And any public sector poster on this forum is unrealistic! I love the balance in this forum!

    You think only public sector posters get actioned for wholly unrealistic posts? You'd be wrong and on this very thread too. That's an example of the attitudes on both sides we don't want on this forum.

    Take up any perceived bias and other moderation issues via pm thank you.

    Mad Men's Don Draper : What you call love was invented by guys like me, to sell nylons.



  • #1110
    not yet
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,008 ✭✭✭not yet


    I'd like to think that any decent working person would agree that cutting a PS worker who earns 25-45k is unreasonable, Now I do understand their are some on here who would cut ALL wages in the PS, but ask yourself what would that achive in the overall context of our bank/national debt.

    Yes, parts of the PS need reforming, yes, there are some overpaid sectors but to cut Nurses,teachers local council workers etc that are on 25-45k achives very little. Tackle the real waste and high earners to get the savings. Ask yourself why services are being contracted out only to treble in price to to end users I.E waste collection etc.

    One last point, If an post lose the current tender for paying welfare payments how many jobs/offices will be lost.


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  • #1111
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 8,350 ✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    not yet wrote: »
    I'd like to think that any decent working person would agree that cutting a PS worker who earns 25-45k is unreasonable, Now I do understand their are some on here who would cut ALL wages in the PS, but ask yourself what would that achive in the overall context of our bank/national debt.

    Yes, parts of the PS need reforming, yes, there are some overpaid sectors but to cut Nurses,teachers local council workers etc that are on 25-45k achives very little. Tackle the real waste and high earners to get the savings. Ask yourself why services are being contracted out only to treble in price to to end users I.E waste collection etc.

    One last point, If an post lose the current tender for paying welfare payments how many jobs/offices will be lost.

    It is not just the amount they earn, it is also whether it is a fair wage for the role they have in comparison where possible to the private sector. A premium on pay seems unfair when you consider the perks that come with being in the PS.

    Rumours are a freeze in increments with cuts to those at the top of their scale according to the "week in politics".


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