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UPC Cisco EPC3925: Enabling True Bridge Mode - A Simple How-to Guide

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    #242
    ED E
    Registered Users Posts: 36,166 ✭✭✭✭ED E


    frash wrote: »
    The WNDR3800 seems to be recommended on this thread & I've found it online for under €100 which appears to be a good price.
    http://www.ebay.ie/itm/WLAN-300-MBit-Router-Netgear-WNDR3800-N600-4x-GigaBit-/121049927191?pt=DE_Computing_Drahtlose_Router&hash=item1c2f234e17#ht_4688wt_1139

    Can anyone give me their opinion on it's range?
    How far can you go before the signal goes from (say) 4 bars down to 2 bars?

    I have a WNR2000 which I could setup as a repeater if needed but if I'm spending this kinda money I'd prefer not to have to extend.

    The problem for me at the moment is that the UPC point comes in behind the TV in the front room & there's a concrete wall seperating that room from the back of the house where there's an extension. Signal is pretty crap in the extension just using either the EPC3925 (as normal) OR the EPC3925 in bridged mode with the WNR2000.

    TL;DR - will the WNDR3800 give me a significant wireless range increase over the WNR2000? Significant enough to warrant €100

    Short: No.


    Long: You'll never see a huge variation between APs. They're limited by international regulations in terms of power so range is close to fixed. Some units are more efficient than others, but not much.

    The point of using the 3800 is for routing, if you need range, get a wifi extender. Place it within range of the EPC, then it rebroadcasts and expands your covered area.


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    #243
    frash
    Registered Users Posts: 2,564 ✭✭✭frash


    ED E wrote: »

    Short: No.


    Long: You'll never see a huge variation between APs. They're limited by international regulations in terms of power so range is close to fixed. Some units are more efficient than others, but not much.

    The point of using the 3800 is for routing, if you need range, get a wifi extender. Place it within range of the EPC, then it rebroadcasts and expands your covered area.

    Thanks for the info Ed.
    Netgear have a PDF on their website that suggests the range does improve with higher spec models.

    Can't find any independent tests though.

    Here's the doc...

    Www.netgear.com/images/Router%20Chart%209_1118-44305.pdf


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    #244
    DECEiFER
    Registered Users Posts: 3,212 ✭✭✭DECEiFER


    SmallNetBuilder.com is a good place for independent reviews.

    WNDR2000:
    http://www.smallnetbuilder.com/wireless/wireless-reviews/30615-netgear-wnr2000-wireless-n-router-reviewed

    WNDR3800:
    http://www.smallnetbuilder.com/wireless/wireless-reviews/31593-new-to-the-charts-netgear-wndr3800-n600-wireless-dual-band-gigabit-router-premium-edition


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    #245
    frash
    Registered Users Posts: 2,564 ✭✭✭frash


    DECEiFER wrote: »
    SmallNetBuilder.com is a good place for independent reviews.

    WNDR2000:
    http://www.smallnetbuilder.com/wireless/wireless-reviews/30615-netgear-wnr2000-wireless-n-router-reviewed

    WNDR3800:
    http://www.smallnetbuilder.com/wireless/wireless-reviews/31593-new-to-the-charts-netgear-wndr3800-n600-wireless-dual-band-gigabit-router-premium-edition

    Thanks for that.
    Just ordered a 3800 from here for under €100 delivered.

    Not bad considering it's "discounted" on elara for €170


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    #246
    ED E
    Registered Users Posts: 36,166 ✭✭✭✭ED E


    Mine was like 115 from amazon, so not too bad.


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    #247
    Deanicus
    Registered Users Posts: 254 ✭✭Deanicus


    frash wrote: »
    The WNDR3800 seems to be recommended on this thread & I've found it online for under €100 which appears to be a good price.
    http://www.ebay.ie/itm/WLAN-300-MBit-Router-Netgear-WNDR3800-N600-4x-GigaBit-/121049927191?pt=DE_Computing_Drahtlose_Router&hash=item1c2f234e17#ht_4688wt_1139

    Can anyone give me their opinion on it's range?
    How far can you go before the signal goes from (say) 4 bars down to 2 bars?

    I have a WNR2000 which I could setup as a repeater if needed but if I'm spending this kinda money I'd prefer not to have to extend.

    The problem for me at the moment is that the UPC point comes in behind the TV in the front room & there's a concrete wall seperating that room from the back of the house where there's an extension. Signal is pretty crap in the extension just using either the EPC3925 (as normal) OR the EPC3925 in bridged mode with the WNR2000.

    TL;DR - will the WNDR3800 give me a significant wireless range increase over the WNR2000? Significant enough to warrant €100


    I cant speak to the WNR2000 but I find the wireless range very good on the 3800. I live in a 3 storey house and have my 3800 under the stairs on the ground floor (no option but to have it there) and I still get great signal on the 3rd floor. Also my house is a steel frame which is not great for radio signals but the 3800 doesnt seem to be having an issue.

    You could flash an open firmware on the 3800 like dd-wrt and with that you can increase the transmission power. Word of caution though, if you are to do that dont pump it up too much as it can cause the unit to heat up too much and shorten its life.


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    #248
    frash
    Registered Users Posts: 2,564 ✭✭✭frash


    ED E wrote: »
    Mine was like 115 from amazon, so not too bad.

    Cheapest on Amazon these days works out at roughly €130 delivered


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    #249
    frash
    Registered Users Posts: 2,564 ✭✭✭frash


    Deanicus wrote: »
    I cant speak to the WNR2000 but I find the wireless range very good on the 3800. I live in a 3 storey house and have my 3800 under the stairs on the ground floor (no option but to have it there) and I still get great signal on the 3rd floor. Also my house is a steel frame which is not great for radio signals but the 3800 doesnt seem to be having an issue.

    You could flash an open firmware on the 3800 like dd-wrt and with that you can increase the transmission power. Word of caution though, if you are to do that dont pump it up too much as it can cause the unit to heat up too much and shorten its life.

    Great to hear.
    I'm also in a 3 storey house and the router's location is limited to the ground floor front room. I'm hoping this router will reach the top floor & also an extension at the back of the house.

    Hoping not to have to go down the custom firmware road but it's good to have it as an option.
    Might also be able to use the WNR2000 as a repeater but again - hoping not to have to.


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    #250
    Deanicus
    Registered Users Posts: 254 ✭✭Deanicus


    frash wrote: »
    Great to hear.
    I'm also in a 3 storey house and the router's location is limited to the ground floor front room. I'm hoping this router will reach the top floor & also an extension at the back of the house.

    Hoping not to have to go down the custom firmware road but it's good to have it as an option.
    Might also be able to use the WNR2000 as a repeater but again - hoping not to have to.

    I'd say it should be up to the job. I will say though, try and have the router elevated as high as you can. This will really help with the coverage. Worse case though as you said is to use the 2000 as a repeater.


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    #251
    Shao
    Registered Users Posts: 126 ✭✭Shao


    Any chance the old netgear wgr614 v9 (have lying around from old UPC connection) is capable of this?


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    #252
    hick
    Registered Users Posts: 788 ✭✭✭hick


    Hi folks,

    firstly thanks to DECEiFER for the original post, did it last week and it's working a treat, no more drops, can have as many devices on as I like, working now the way it's supposed to!!!

    Quick question though, I got UPC to upgrade me today to 50Mb, they say it should be active once I restarted the modem, but still speedtesting at the original 25Mb..... Anybody know if applying this hack mod to enable bridging would stop the modem from picking up the new speed?
    I'm on the 3925.

    Cheers
    hick


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    #253
    DECEiFER
    Registered Users Posts: 3,212 ✭✭✭DECEiFER


    hick wrote: »
    Hi folks,

    firstly thanks to DECEiFER for the original post, did it last week and it's working a treat, no more drops, can have as many devices on as I like, working now the way it's supposed to!!!

    Quick question though, I got UPC to upgrade me today to 50Mb, they say it should be active once I restarted the modem, but still speedtesting at the original 25Mb..... Anybody know if applying this hack would stop the modem from picking up the new speed?
    I'm on the 3925.

    Cheers
    hick
    Absolutely not, and remember, it's not a hack, the modem is natively capable of bridging. I upgraded to 100Mb/s in October while in Bridge mode and it came through immediately after a restart. I'd call UPC back up and make sure the new speed was applied to your account as that's the only reason I can see why you wouldn't have it yet.


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    #254
    hick
    Registered Users Posts: 788 ✭✭✭hick


    Thanks for the reply man, appreciate it, I assumed as much, and point taken on h word :D I'll give the a rattle and hopefully it'll get sorted
    Cheers
    hick


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    #255
    DECEiFER
    Registered Users Posts: 3,212 ✭✭✭DECEiFER


    hick wrote: »
    Thanks for the reply man, appreciate it, I assumed as much, and point taken on h word :D I'll give the a rattle and hopefully it'll get sorted
    Cheers
    hick
    No problem! Hope they shake it up to 50 for by tomorrow.

    Technically, though, the process of making Bridge mode happen is a hack (to get past UPC's restrictions on devices which don't have the functionality showing) but the device itself isn't being hacked since it's a native function of the hardware and software (the firmware), if you get my meaning.


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    #256
    onlyahobo
    Registered Users Posts: 10 ✭onlyahobo


    Hi DECEiFER,

    Greetings from Poland!

    First of all, congratulations on your discovery and thanks for sharing it. I had no idea that you can modify routers' code with such a simple tool as Opera. That's amazing and it is another reason for me to learn JavaScript. I have one question though. I don't think I fully understand what bridging a router gives me and how it is different from it working in a router mode. I mean I can still use my own router sticking it into the Cisco EPC3925 working in a router mode. I know I am forming another subnet in this way which means that I have to forward all ports on the EPC3925 to my own router but that's probably all that needs to be done. Could you explain to me what this bridging really gives me?

    I'd be grateful for your response!

    Michał


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    #257
    ED E
    Registered Users Posts: 36,166 ✭✭✭✭ED E


    As a router the EPC is a router and a modem in one box. Bridging disables the routing functions and turns it into just a modem. This means the EPC doesnt have to do any calculations/management, it just allows the new router to open a connection and lease an IP from your ISP.

    The reasons you might do this are:
    • Double routing = more latency. I've noticed a good 10ms chopped off in tests and similar in gaming
    • Remove load from the EPC(Its junk and gets overloaded easy enough)
    • Have a proper firewall
    • Prevent your ISP from accessing your subnet
    • Better control, a good router, especially flashed DDRWT or PFSENSE

    There are probably more, but tldr its to mitigate the sh1ttyness of the EPC.


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    #258
    DECEiFER
    Registered Users Posts: 3,212 ✭✭✭DECEiFER


    onlyahobo wrote: »
    Hi DECEiFER,

    Greetings from Poland!

    First of all, congratulations on your discovery and thanks for sharing it. I had no idea that you can modify routers' code with such a simple tool as Opera. That's amazing and it is another reason for me to learn JavaScript. I have one question though. I don't think I fully understand what bridging a router gives me and how it is different from it working in a router mode. I mean I can still use my own router sticking it into the Cisco EPC3925 working in a router mode. I know I am forming another subnet in this way which means that I have to forward all ports on the EPC3925 to my own router but that's probably all that needs to be done. Could you explain to me what this bridging really gives me?

    I'd be grateful for your response!

    Michał
    Hi onlyahobo,

    ED E nailed it on the head. You're not leaving any work for the EPC to do that your router can most likely do better.

    In Router mode you need to use DMZ if you're connecting another router, because manually forwarding the ports is more time-consuming and you would probably always end up leaving a few ports closed due to things like UPnP only functioning between your computer and the cable router you're connected to.

    So I take it in Poland that Bridge mode is still not an option on the EPC3925? UPC Ireland revealed the option officially for the majority of us about a month after this thread started (one person here has reported that he doesn't have it but I do and I know ED E does!) so we no longer need the workaround in this thread (for the moment, at least!).


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    #259
    onlyahobo
    Registered Users Posts: 10 ✭onlyahobo


    Thanks for the replies! I'll think it over and test it to see if I understand the difference. :)

    Another question that comes to my mind right now is: "What happens if you stick a computer into the second LAN port (the first being taken by my own router) of the EPC3925 working in the bridge mode?" I know that the DHCP if off in the bridge mode but if I set the static IP on my computer it should theoretically work, shouldn't it?. I will have to test it over the weekend when I do the magic trick of yours, as now I'm waiting for my TP-Link to come.

    No, Bridge mode is not an option here in Poland, or at least my EPC3925 doesn't offer it. The code of my Management page is exactly like you showed it with the Working mode part cut off. It's funny that they revealed it in Ireland after hiding it at first. I think they had been planning to do so one day and that's why they cut off the part of code calling the selectWorkingMode() function and not the function itself. But the very question why they hid Bridge mode at all is still a mystery to me.

    Again, good job cracking the code of the EPC. I'll let you know how it worked for me when I get to it.


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    #260
    onlyahobo
    Registered Users Posts: 10 ✭onlyahobo


    ED E wrote: »
    • Prevent your ISP from accessing your subnet

    Now that's a very good reason! :D
    I'm convinced.


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    #261
    ED E
    Registered Users Posts: 36,166 ✭✭✭✭ED E


    Be warned, they could still watch all your traffic if they were to be of such a mind. It just limits the techs access when he dials in remotely as in essence he's treated as part of the internet, not your LAN.


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    #262
    hick
    Registered Users Posts: 788 ✭✭✭hick


    onlyahobo wrote: »
    "What happens if you stick a computer into the second LAN port (the first being taken by my own router) of the EPC3925 working in the bridge mode?" I know that the DHCP if off in the bridge mode but if I set the static IP on my computer it should theoretically work, shouldn't it?.

    Just to follow up this question, can you have a direct connection that a local device can use? basically 3925 is beside the tv and I want to connect the skybox to the modem so i can use on demand etc. Any ideas, or should I just bite the bullet and run another cable to my router which is now in the attic
    Cheers
    hick


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    #263
    DECEiFER
    Registered Users Posts: 3,212 ✭✭✭DECEiFER


    hick wrote: »
    Just to follow up this question, can you have a direct connection that a local device can use? basically 3925 is beside the tv and I want to connect the skybox to the modem so i can use on demand etc. Any ideas, or should I just bite the bullet and run another cable to my router which is now in the attic
    Cheers
    hick
    You can give it a go, there's no reason why it won't work! It'll have a different public IP than your router (and by extension your computers, etc., connected to your router) and it won't be protected by a firewall, but I don't think that would be a problem for a TV box. So it's worth a try at least!


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    #264
    onlyahobo
    Registered Users Posts: 10 ✭onlyahobo


    I assume your EPC3925 is in Bridge mode like in my scenario, right?

    If yes and if it does't work, then simply unbridge your EPC and use it as a modem/router and forget about all the benefits of keeping it in Bridge mode that ED E has just mentioned. I think it's a better alternative than draging a couple of meters of UTP all the way to the attic.


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    #265
    DECEiFER
    Registered Users Posts: 3,212 ✭✭✭DECEiFER


    Sorry, just to point out, my previous answer was based on the EPC3925 being in Bridge mode. It should work just fine, you can have up to three separate DHCP assignments from UPC, I believe, so three out of the four Ethernet ports should be good to go on the EPC3925 in Bridge mode. I guess having a router working only as a modem with multiple ports has its advantages!


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    #266
    onlyahobo
    Registered Users Posts: 10 ✭onlyahobo


    DECEiFER wrote: »
    (...) you can have up to three separate DHCP assignments from UPC, I believe, (...)

    You mean, uou get 3 public IP addresses from UPC? :eek: Does it cost some extra money or is it a standard service in Ireland?


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    #267
    DECEiFER
    Registered Users Posts: 3,212 ✭✭✭DECEiFER


    onlyahobo wrote: »
    You mean, uou get 3 public IP addresses from UPC? :eek: Does it cost some extra money or is it a standard service in Ireland?
    I hope it doesn't cost money! :P

    You could probably do it in Poland. Give it a go when you switch over to Bridge mode. Just connect a computer into a second LAN port directly and have the router with other computers/phones/etc. connected to it in the first. Then head over to http://www.ipchicken.com or similar and compare IP addresses.


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    #268
    onlyahobo
    Registered Users Posts: 10 ✭onlyahobo


    I need to try it, then. I'll get to it tomorrow evening or on Saturday, at the latest. Thanks for the info! ;)


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    #269
    DECEiFER
    Registered Users Posts: 3,212 ✭✭✭DECEiFER


    onlyahobo wrote: »
    I need to try it, then. I'll get to it tomorrow evening or on Saturday, at the latest. Thanks for the info! ;)
    No problem, anytime! It's good that all us European UPC customers can share the wealth!


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    #270
    alastair
    Registered Users Posts: 19,307 ✭✭✭✭alastair


    If anyone has a spare/unused EPC3925, I'd be keen to buy it. I'm still using an older Thomson in DMZ mode, but I've got a double NAT error that's giving me grief. PM if you've got one in the Dublin vicinity.


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    #271
    ED E
    Registered Users Posts: 36,166 ✭✭✭✭ED E


    alastair wrote: »
    If anyone has a spare/unused EPC3925, I'd be keen to buy it. I'm still using an older Thomson in DMZ mode, but I've got a double NAT error that's giving me grief. PM if you've got one in the Dublin vicinity.

    Cant do that. They're uniquely provisioned and remain the property UPC.

    Call UPC, they'll probably upgrade you.


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