Croke Park II preliminary Talks started today

noodler · 19-01-2013 04:20PM

ardmacha wrote: »

Is this an inappropriate number? Does the ROI have more policemen or teachers per capita than Manchester?

Which makes we wonder if we have such bad public finances why property tax is not also much higher here?

Our health spend (an indicative example considering its primacy in the context of overall spending) is higher than the average in the OECD.

Spending is the issue.

ardmacha · 19-01-2013 04:39PM

Our health spend (an indicative example considering its primacy in the context of overall spending) is higher than the average in the OECD

Point taken. But this does not directly say anything about the number of policemen. Sweeping statements about public expenditure have to end and if the discussion is to be in any sense useful more granular comparisons have to be made.

noodler · 19-01-2013 04:42PM

ardmacha wrote: »

Point taken. But this does not directly say anything about the number of policemen. Sweeping statements about public expenditure have to end and if the discussion is to be in any sense useful more granular comparisons have to be made.

They don't have to end though.

Its a matter of fact debate.

Publkic expenditure is higher than we can afford. This has been the case since 2008 and will be the case until at least 2015.

The debate can't stop because some people see "public expenditure" and think "crap they could be talking about my overtime, salary, allowances, working hours" etc etc.

EDIT: I am sure I have linked this article before and in fairness - its just a comparison of OECD data rather than opinion but the numbers employed don't seem to be an issue - just the salaries.

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/finance/2012/0914/1224324008263.html

Gumbo · 19-01-2013 04:45PM

tenton wrote: »

Property tax is much higher in the UK...shoes are cheaper in Ireland than UK. Many things are cheaper in Ireland. You cannot seriously complain about the price of many things in Ireland now. Was in Pennys the other day and saw clothes for next to nothing. McDonalds sell hamburgers for a euro. You can buy a 2 - bedroom apartment in many parts of Ireland for less than a years public service salary now. You cannot do that in England or anywhere else. I think everyone knows in Croke Park2 that there will rightfully be major cuts, as the country cannot afford to overpay so many so much for so long.

Hello Jimmmy.........

ardmacha · 19-01-2013 05:27PM

EDIT: I am sure I have linked this article before and in fairness - its just a comparison of OECD data rather than opinion but the numbers employed don't seem to be an issue - just the salaries

.

Sadly, Dan O'Brien has not maintained the standard you would expect of a leading newspaper in his articles. There is a great deal of simplistic and selective use of statistics in this article, like others he produces. For instance he says "The evidence overwhelmingly says the public sector saw bigger gains during the boom", data posted several times here on boards shows that both sectors say about the same gains.

The numbers employed in the public sector are not excessive, but a more granular examination might well reveal excessive numbers in particular sectors or excessive numbers of "managers" when compared to the private sector. But people are happy to quote particular unusual cases and then draw unsupported conclusions for the whole public sector, when the only reasonable and mature approach is to look at the sub-sectors without reference to individuals nor the entire, diverse, public sector.

noodler · 19-01-2013 06:11PM

ardmacha wrote: »

.

Sadly, Dan O'Brien has not maintained the standard you would expect of a leading newspaper in his articles. There is a great deal of simplistic and selective use of statistics in this article, like others he produces. For instance he says "The evidence overwhelmingly says the public sector saw bigger gains during the boom", data posted several times here on boards shows that both sectors say about the same gains.

Nope. That isn't true. 1998-2007 the PS pay Bill doubled.

ardmacha wrote: »

.The numbers employed in the public sector are not excessive,

Nice to see you can agree with something.

ardmacha wrote: »

But people are happy to quote particular unusual cases and then draw unsupported conclusions for the whole public sector,

Again, pointing out that the salaries are higher generally is a prerequisite for any further action.

Don't try and confuse the issue in an effort to downplay its importance.

ardmacha wrote: »

when the only reasonable and mature approach is to look at the sub-sectors without reference to individuals nor the entire, diverse, public sector.

And again, crying out "we are not all overpaid" isn't going to stop the debate.

Pop Quiz: There have been roughly 25bn worth of budget adjustments since 2008. The majority of these have been on the expenditure side.

How many of these billions were related to Public Sector Pay?

woodoo · 19-01-2013 06:18PM

tenton wrote: »

Property tax is much higher in the UK...shoes are cheaper in Ireland than UK. Many things are cheaper in Ireland. You cannot seriously complain about the price of many things in Ireland now. Was in Pennys the other day and saw clothes for next to nothing. McDonalds sell hamburgers for a euro. You can buy a 2 - bedroom apartment in many parts of Ireland for less than a years public service salary now. You cannot do that in England or anywhere else. I think everyone knows in Croke Park2 that there will rightfully be major cuts, as the country cannot afford to overpay so many so much for so long.

I know who you are already...

ardmacha · 19-01-2013 07:06PM

noodler wrote:

Originally Posted by ardmacha
when the only reasonable and mature approach is to look at the sub-sectors without reference to individuals nor the entire, diverse, public sector.

And again, crying out "we are not all overpaid" isn't going to stop the debate.

I think you've proved my point. I argued for proper fact based analysis and you invented a quote from me and completely ignored my point. This is the general standard of debate on this matter.

noodler · 19-01-2013 07:27PM

ardmacha wrote: »

I think you've proved my point. I argued for proper fact based analysis and you invented a quote from me and completely ignored my point. This is the general standard of debate on this matter.

You've been given facts and you choose to dispute them on the basis they are not specific enough.

I haven't said specifically who should have their pay cut, which grades etc.

I have said that our PS is generally very well paid as a proportion of our national income as the OECD statistics prove.

I have also maintained that there is a private-public sector gap which is not wholly explained at all by the public sector being more qualified given that the disparity does not exist in Germany, France and Belgium.

Our own CSO has found this gap, the ECB have (http://www.ecb.europa.eu/pub/pdf/scpwps/ecbwp1406.pdf) and the OECD have.

You have all the proof you need.

I have not prescribed any advice on who should have their salaries cut - on one point we do agree, something more precise than an across the board slash is required. I am simply recognising that there is an issue which requires action.

murphaph · 19-01-2013 11:24PM

ardmacha wrote: »

. But people are happy to quote particular unusual cases and then draw unsupported conclusions for the whole public sector, when the only reasonable and mature approach is to look at the sub-sectors without reference to individuals nor the entire, diverse, public sector.

Collective bargaining means we have to view you all as a monolithic entity. If you yourselves resigned from the collective bargaining process and stood your own ground, we'd be reading off the same hymn sheet, until then, be prepared to be lumped in with the dead weight (of which there is plenty, along with the odd hero)

Good loser · 20-01-2013 12:49AM

noodler wrote: »

Again, pointing out that the salaries are higher generally is a prerequisite for any further action.

Don't try and confuse the issue in an effort to downplay its importance.

Spot on there noodler. Your truism initiates the debate - the details are for the CP discussions.

Heard someone say today the Conservatives want to reduce teachers salaries in UK by £4,000. (Could be for beginners)

Wonder will there be a flood of workers out of the Public Service to Dunnes now that they are getting a 4% increase in their wages.

Itchianus · 20-01-2013 03:44AM

tenton wrote: »

The country of Ireland has the same population as greater manchester and yet has 0.3 million highly paid and pensioned public servants feeding off it.

That might have some relevance if Ireland was also the same size as greater manchester, with the same population density and demographics, and if either Ireland was actually a city, or greater manchester was a country....

Sure why not look at Norway which has a population of just over 5million and see how many public servants they have (WAY more), or see how many they have in New Zealand which has a population a little under 4.5million (they have about 10% less). All of which is a blunt and pointless exercise since it doesn't consider the type, amount and quality of public services.

How many public servants does greater manchester have by the way? Assuming you can actually work it out, or have you just assumed it's less than 300,000?

tenton · 20-01-2013 11:25AM

Itchianus wrote: »

That might have some relevance if Ireland was also the same size as greater manchester, with the same population density and demographics, and if either Ireland was actually a city, or greater manchester was a country....

Sure why not look at Norway which has a population of just over 5million and see how many public servants they have (WAY more), or see how many they have in New Zealand which has a population a little under 4.5million (they have about 10% less). All of which is a blunt and pointless exercise since it doesn't consider the type, amount and quality of public services.

How many public servants does greater manchester have by the way? Assuming you can actually work it out, or have you just assumed it's less than 300,000?

You are missing the point, or deliberatly ignoring it. The point is, as others have pointed out, we are spending far more on government expenditure, inc on our public service than we can afford. As noddler said a few posts back, our public service pay bill doubled 1998 - 2007.

noodler wrote: »

1998-2007 the PS pay Bill doubled.

I was in a government office the other week and most of the staff were chatting away most of the time...we all know what productivity is like on average there , having family and friends there. That is not to say there are not some hard working and conscientous public servants. As regards Manchester as you say, average public sector pay there is so much lower you could nearly employ two people there for the cost of one public servant here. No wonder the EU/ IMF / UK had to come in a few years ago and rescue us / be our lender of last resort when the average public sector pay in our neighbour was £23.6k and here it was nearly double. Pat Kenny quoted figures recently and he was right. These figures are from a couple of years ago and show how we ended up in this mess. Not much has changed since, with our public servants receiving increments since then. http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/economics/7036131/Record-gap-between-public-and-private-sector-pay.html#

Mr. teddywinkles · 20-01-2013 11:30AM

frankosw wrote: »

Have you ever had reason to call the gardai,or an ambulance?

I assume you sweep your own street and build your own roads too.

Private contractors build roads, council maintains

kippy · 20-01-2013 11:34AM

tenton wrote: »

You are missing the point, or deliberatly ignoring it. The point is, as others have pointed out, we are spending far more on government expenditure, inc on our public service than we can afford. As noddler said a few posts back, our public service pay bill doubled 1998 - 2007. I was in a government office the other week and most of the staff were chatting away most of the time...we all know what productivity is like on average there , having family and friends there. That is not to say there are not some hard working and conscientous public servants. As regards Manchester as you say, average public sector pay there is so much lower you could nearly employ two people there for the cost of one public servant here. No wonder the EU/ IMF / UK had to come in a few years ago and rescue us / be our lender of last resort when the average public sector pay in our neighbour was £23.6k and here it was nearly double. Pat Kenny quoted figures recently and he was right. These figures are from a couple of years ago and show how we ended up in this mess. Not much has changed since, with our public servants receiving increments since then. thathttp://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/economics/7036131/Record-gap-between-public-and-private-sector-pay.html#

1. Do you concede that bills for many other services doubled in the same time period?
2. Do you concede that the public service have already had two pay cuts? (once called a pension levy and the other a pay cut)
3. Do you concede that the public service has been effected by every single tax that the private sector have been?
4. Do you concede that there have been signifant cuts in to the over all gross pay and pensions bill and even great cuts in the net pay and pensions bill in the past 4 years?
5. Do you concede that the population of this country has increased since 1998?

What do you wish to see CP2 achieve?

Chips Lovell · 20-01-2013 12:07PM

Interesting story in the Sunday Times today. They said only 30 people applied for the 1,000 new nursing jobs at the new lower salary rate.

Itchianus · 20-01-2013 12:26PM

tenton wrote: »

You are missing the point, or deliberatly ignoring it. The point is, as others have pointed out, we are spending far more on government expenditure, inc on our public service than we can afford. As noddler said a few posts back, our public service pay bill doubled 1998 - 2007.

I'm not missing anything - I'm calling you out over a lazy and irrelevant comparison you made. Do you accept that trying to compare the cost of running a country of 4.5m people spread out across 70k square km with the cost of administering a metropolitan area with a similar population is completely nonsensical? - and by the way the population of greater manchester is substantially less than Ireland (c.3 million)

tenton wrote: »

I was in a government office the other week and most of the staff were chatting away most of the time...

Name and shame?

tenton wrote: »

we all know what productivity is like on average there

Really, we all know this? What's the source of this knowledge? Average being a mathematical measure, I'm sure you've got the numbers crunched to support your assertion?

tenton wrote: »

having family and friends there.

So what you're saying is your friends and family who work there are lazy and unproductive? Have you told them this or do you save that up for when you're online and anonymous?

tenton wrote: »

That is not to say there are not some hard working and conscientous public servants.

Oh how gracious of you to concede that there are some hard working PS workers - how many? 10? 100? 1,000? 10,000? 100,000?

tenton wrote: »

As regards Manchester as you say, average public sector pay there is so much lower you could nearly employ two people there for the cost of one public servant here. No wonder the EU/ IMF / UK had to come in a few years ago and rescue us / be our lender of last resort when the average public sector pay in our neighbour was £23.6k and here it was nearly double. Pat Kenny quoted figures recently and he was right. These figures are from a couple of years ago and show how we ended up in this mess. Not much has changed since, with our public servants receiving increments since then. http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/economics/7036131/Record-gap-between-public-and-private-sector-pay.html#

Those figures are 3 years old and relate to the Public/Private sector pay gap in the UK, not here?!
But since you brought it up, maybe you'd like to comment on the difference between the average Private Sector pay in Ireland and the UK. You say that average Irish public sector pay is way higher than the UK, but so is average Irish private sector pay. Should that be brought down into line with UK levels as well?

noodler · 20-01-2013 01:31PM

tenton wrote: »

I was in a government office the other week and most of the staff were chatting away most of the time...we all know what productivity is like on average there , having family and friends there. That is not to say there are not some hard working and conscientous public servants.

I make no bones that I feel the pay bill needs to be further reduced somehow but I really don't think anecdotal statements or observations on PS productivity like that really help the debate.

OMD · 20-01-2013 01:53PM

Itchianus wrote: »

Those figures are 3 years old and relate to the Public/Private sector pay gap in the UK, not here?!
But since you brought it up, maybe you'd like to comment on the difference between the average Private Sector pay in Ireland and the UK. You say that average Irish public sector pay is way higher than the UK, but so is average Irish private sector pay. Should that be brought down into line with UK levels as well?

In most countries, including UK public sector workers earn less than private sector. This is balanced by better working conditions and better pensions in public sector. In Ireland however, public sector still get the better working conditions but also earn substantially more.

repsol · 20-01-2013 01:57PM

Vladimir Kurtains wrote: »

Interesting story in the Sunday Times today. They said only 30 people applied for the 1,000 new nursing jobs at the new lower salary rate.

Hire them if they are suitable, and let the other 970 go to Australia if thats what they want.I would rather have a daughter nursing here for 30K pa than have her nursing for 40k pa on the other side of the World,as would most parents.The date has been extended and the 2 previous year graduates can now apply.They will get the applicants . The INO leaders are advocating a boycott,but they all have jobs so it is easy for them to say.

OMD · 20-01-2013 02:02PM

kippy wrote: »

1. Do you concede that bills for many other services doubled in the same time period?
2. Do you concede that the public service have already had two pay cuts? (once called a pension levy and the other a pay cut)
3. Do you concede that the public service has been effected by every single tax that the private sector have been?
4. Do you concede that there have been signifant cuts in to the over all gross pay and pensions bill and even great cuts in the net pay and pensions bill in the past 4 years?
5. Do you concede that the population of this country has increased since 1998?

What do you wish to see CP2 achieve?

Wages doubled. Cost of goods and services rose by about 40% from 1998 to now.

When increments are taken into account, average public sector worker is earning the same as they were 5 years ago, after pension levy but before taxation, allowing for inflation.

The population has increased since 1998. Which has increased by the greater percentage, the populationir number of public sector workers.

Celticfire · 20-01-2013 02:04PM

OMD wrote: »

In most countries, including UK public sector workers earn less than private sector. This is balanced by better working conditions and better pensions in public sector. In Ireland however, public sector still get the better working conditions but also earn substantially more.

Have you got a breakdown to show that? Can you show me 10 comparable jobs and their difference in public and private remuneration in these countries?
Or are you going on the raw averages and comparing apples to oranges?

Does the fact that most countries have large military forces that are typically low paid not skew the averages?

kippy · 20-01-2013 02:08PM

OMD wrote: »

Wages doubled. Cost of goods and services rose by about 40% from 1998 to now.

When increments are taken into account, average public sector worker is earning the same as they were 5 years ago, after pension levy but before taxation, allowing for inflation.

The population has increased since 1998. Which has increased by the greater percentage, the populationir number of public sector workers.

1. You have little or no understanding of increments if that is your opinion.
2. If your main point is true why has the pay and pension bill reduced substantially since 2008?

OMD · 20-01-2013 02:12PM

Celticfire wrote: »

Have you got a breakdown to show that? Can you show me 10 comparable jobs and their difference in public and private remuneration in these countries?
Or are you going on the raw averages and comparing apples to oranges?

Does the fact that most countries have large military forces that are typically low paid not skew the averages?

If the difference was a few percentage then they would be fair points. But the difference is much more in Ireland and cannot be brushed away by saying our army is not as large as other countries or that I'm comparing apples and oranges. The reality is we have one if the most indebted countries in Europe. It stands to reason we should not have one of the highest paid public sectors. The Troika continually say this. They have experience of international public sector systems. Are they all wrong as well

repsol · 20-01-2013 02:14PM

OMD wrote: »

Wages doubled. Cost of goods and services rose by about 40% from 1998 to now.

When increments are taken into account, average public sector worker is earning the same as they were 5 years ago, after pension levy but before taxation, allowing for inflation.

The population has increased since 1998. Which has increased by the greater percentage, the populationir number of public sector workers.

Obviously there are no new public servants as there has been a ban on recruitment in place.This is going to skew averages into appearing that wages are the same as 5 years ago.The Garda who was in year 1, 5 years ago,is now in year 6 and is justifiably on a different pay point as he is experienced and probably has completed lots of courses (driving etc) so his productivity is up.The absence of lower paid new recruits distorts the fact that the PS staff has had a severe pay cut.The guy on year 6 is not on the same as a year 6 was 5 years ago.

OMD · 20-01-2013 02:20PM

repsol wrote: »

Obviously there are no new public servants as there has been a ban on recruitment in place.This is going to skew averages into appearing that wages are the same as 5 years ago.The Garda who was in year 1, 5 years ago,is now in year 6 and is justifiably on a different pay point as he is experienced and probably has completed lots of courses (driving etc) so his productivity is up.The absence of lower paid new recruits distorts the fact that the PS staff has had a severe pay cut.The guy on year 6 is not on the same as a year 6 was 5 years ago.

Equally, those that have left were for the most part the highest earners in each section ie those retiring. Yet the average pay hasn't dropped to reflect this. Is a teacher with 20 years experience really better than one with 10? My experience would suggest the opposite as younger teachers tend to be more enthusiastic and have more ideas.
Workers may be more productive now as they have more experience but then shouldn't PS shut up about how they are now being more productive. By your statement they are being well paid for it. Enough to wipe out the effects of a pay cut and pension levy.

Godge · 20-01-2013 02:26PM

OMD wrote: »

In most countries, including UK public sector workers earn less than private sector. This is balanced by better working conditions and better pensions in public sector. In Ireland however, public sector still get the better working conditions but also earn substantially more.

Really? You have been making completely unsubstantiated points for a number of pages now. So in the UK public sector workers earn less than private sector? Really?

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2065479/Public-sector-workers-earn-4-000-year-pay-premium-compared-private-staff.html

In most countries? Let us take one random country, maybe where they slashed public services, say New Zealand? Really?

http://ideas.repec.org/p/wai/econwp/07-20.html

Another country? How about Canada, US, Australia, UK?

http://ideas.repec.org/a/ebl/ecbull/eb-09-00255.html

I find it amazing that someone can post somthing that a two-minute google search finds to be a complete lie!

Godge · 20-01-2013 02:30PM

OMD wrote: »

When increments are taken into account, average public sector worker is earning the same as they were 5 years ago, after pension levy but before taxation, allowing for inflation.

Not true. From the CSO:

"In the three years to Q3 2012 public sector earnings have fallen by

€38.25 (-4.0%), and this compares with an increase of €8.56 (+1.4%) in private

sector average weekly earnings in the same period."

http://www.cso.ie/en/releasesandpublications/earnings/

Click on "Earnings and Labour Costs" under Current Releases.

Celticfire · 20-01-2013 03:00PM

OMD wrote: »

If the difference was a few percentage then they would be fair points. But the difference is much more in Ireland and cannot be brushed away by saying our army is not as large as other countries or that I'm comparing apples and oranges. The reality is we have one if the most indebted countries in Europe. It stands to reason we should not have one of the highest paid public sectors. The Troika continually say this. They have experience of international public sector systems. Are they all wrong as well

You are comparing apples and oranges.
On the Public sector pay side of thing it includes lots of professions and managerial roles that are not included in the Private sector average.

Eg, Solicitors,Architects,Engineers,Managers,Consultants,Medical specialists etc. None of which are counted in the Private sector average instead you have large groups of low pay workers in hospitality, services and other low paid jobs that don't even make enough to pay PAYE.

So to compare both is a bit disingenuous even the CSO says that they are not like for like stats..

tenton · 20-01-2013 03:40PM

Godge wrote: »

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2065479/Public-sector-workers-earn-4-000-year-pay-premium-compared-private-staff.html

so you concede that public sector pay in the UK is nearly half of what it is here.
This despite the fact the UK has higher property tax, fuel charges, water charges , higher rents etc. And despite the fact we are bust / being lent tens of billions of euro anually by the lender of las resort, the IMF, just to keep our show afloat.
Time there was a bit of common sense with our public sector pay rates ( average 49k a year according to statistics )

23.6k a year sterling was average public sector pay in UK exactly 3 years ago, and there was / is a lot of controversy over there about how high that is!

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/economics/7036131/Record-gap-between-public-and-private-sector-pay.html#

Croke Park II preliminary Talks started today

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