Croke Park II preliminary Talks started today

Godge

tenton wrote: »

so you concede that public sector pay in the UK is nearly half of what it is here.
This despite the fact the UK has higher property tax, fuel charges, water charges , higher rents etc. And despite the fact we are bust / being lent tens of billions of euro anually by the lender of las resort, the IMF, just to keep our show afloat.
Time there was a bit of common sense with our public sector pay rates ( average 49k a year according to statistics )

23.6k a year sterling was average public sector pay in UK exactly 3 years ago, and there was / is a lot of controversy over there about how high that is!

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/economics/7036131/Record-gap-between-public-and-private-sector-pay.html#

According to the CSO data average public sector pay in Ireland is 48k euros.

According to the Daily Mail average public sector pay in the UK is 28k sterling about 34k euros.

The pension levy and pension contributions in Ireland are higher, about 7% higher in pay terms, meaning for that comparison the Irish figure should be 93% of 48k which is about 44.5k.

34k is not nearly half of 44.5k so to answer your question, I do not concede the point.

There are other reasons to explain the difference but I am not going to get involved in this. I have never said that public service pay has not been cut.

I have made the following points and I stick by them. I have posted plenty of evidence about this as well.

- Public servants have made a greater contribution to cutting the deficit as they have seen pay cuts and pension levy as well as all the extra taxes that everyone pays.
- Some public servants are overpaid, some are underpaid and some are paid correctly following the cuts but I don't think there is anyone qualified enough on these boards to tell the difference.
- International comparisons are difficult because there are a number of differences in the structures of public sector pay in other countries. The pension levy is one example but there are others.
- Pay cuts in the public sector have been wider and deeper than those in the private sector, the CSO backs this up
- There is a huge amount of uniformed drivel on these boards and misinterpretation of information.

Itchianus

Godge wrote: »

According to the CSO data average public sector pay in Ireland is 48k euros.

According to the Daily Mail average public sector pay in the UK is 28k sterling about 34k euros.

The pension levy and pension contributions in Ireland are higher, about 7% higher in pay terms, meaning for that comparison the Irish figure should be 93% of 48k which is about 44.5k.

34k is not nearly half of 44.5k so to answer your question, I do not concede the point.

And of course it suited Tenton just fine to omit to address the fact that private sector earnings in the UK are also lower than private sector earnings here.

OMD

Godge wrote: »

Not true. From the CSO:


"In the three years to Q3 2012 public sector earnings have fallen by

€38.25 (-4.0%), and this compares with an increase of €8.56 (+1.4%) in private

sector average weekly earnings in the same period."


http://www.cso.ie/en/releasesandpublications/earnings/



Click on "Earnings and Labour Costs" under Current Releases.

Once again you say 3 years when I said 5. What I said is true and I have proven it to you before.

OMD

Godge wrote: »

Really? You have been making completely unsubstantiated points for a number of pages now. So in the UK public sector workers earn less than private sector? Really?

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2065479/Public-sector-workers-earn-4-000-year-pay-premium-compared-private-staff.html

In most countries? Let us take one random country, maybe where they slashed public services, say New Zealand? Really?

http://ideas.repec.org/p/wai/econwp/07-20.html

Another country? How about Canada, US, Australia, UK?

http://ideas.repec.org/a/ebl/ecbull/eb-09-00255.html


I find it amazing that someone can post somthing that a two-minute google search finds to be a complete lie!

Uk
"We have compared these measures of total compensation for highly educated full-time male employees in the UK public and private sectors who are able to switch easily between the two sectors. While the two sectors start off quite similarly at the age of 21, private sector employees soon develop an income advantage of roughly £5,000 a year, which persists almost to the age of 50. But from the age of 53 onwards, men working in the public sector are better off, including during their retirement years."

From rest of Europe

"The most comprehensive cross-county study** was published late last year. Of 10 euro area countries surveyed, public sector pay was lower that in the private sector in France, Germany and Belgium. Ireland, along with Greece, Spain, Portugal and others, was among the countries where the public sector enjoyed a pay premium"

Godge

OMD wrote: »

Uk
"We have compared these measures of total compensation for highly educated full-time male employees in the UK public and private sectors who are able to switch easily between the two sectors. While the two sectors start off quite similarly at the age of 21, private sector employees soon develop an income advantage of roughly £5,000 a year, which persists almost to the age of 50. But from the age of 53 onwards, men working in the public sector are better off, including during their retirement years."

From rest of Europe

"The most comprehensive cross-county study** was published late last year. Of 10 euro area countries surveyed, public sector pay was lower that in the private sector in France, Germany and Belgium. Ireland, along with Greece, Spain, Portugal and others, was among the countries where the public sector enjoyed a pay premium"

What are you quoting from?

Godge

OMD wrote: »

Once again you say 3 years when I said 5. What I said is true and I have proven it to you before.

Was that you who misrepresented the pay developments by starting before the last of the public sector pay increases but after the last of the private sector pay increases granted under the Towards 2016 Agreement? For twenty years under the social partnership agreements, pay rises were phased differently for both sectors which has allowed both sides to make various half-true proclamations similar to the way you used the stats.

If I recall correctly, I went into detailed CSO statistics to show that the peak to trough profile for the public sector showed a bigger decrease than the private sector and that didn't include the effects of the pension levy.

Gumbo

Godge wrote: »

What are you quoting from?

His own posts.

Godge wrote: »

Was that you who misrepresented the pay developments by starting before the last of the public sector pay increases but after the last of the private sector pay increases granted under the Towards 2016 Agreement? For twenty years under the social partnership agreements, pay rises were phased differently for both sectors which has allowed both sides to make various half-true proclamations similar to the way you used the stats.

If I recall correctly, I went into detailed CSO statistics to show that the peak to trough profile for the public sector showed a bigger decrease than the private sector and that didn't include the effects of the pension levy.

Yes, that was omd.

OMD

Godge wrote: »

Was that you who misrepresented the pay developments by starting before the last of the public sector pay increases but after the last of the private sector pay increases granted under the Towards 2016 Agreement? For twenty years under the social partnership agreements, pay rises were phased differently for both sectors which has allowed both sides to make various half-true proclamations similar to the way you used the stats.

If I recall correctly, I went into detailed CSO statistics to show that the peak to trough profile for the public sector showed a bigger decrease than the private sector and that didn't include the effects of the pension levy.

No I showed CSO figures showing that in the 5 year period public sector wages on average had not fallen when you include pension levy. You kept on talking about 3 year periods saying I was wrong. Once again I am saying over a five year period. I did not make any reference to private rates of pay over the same period.
Once again as now you have decided that peak to trough is a suitable measure (which is totally stupid) and refuse to accept any other measure. By your measure if I get a pay rise today of 20% and you get no pay rise, then tomorrow I get a pay cut of 10% and you get a cut of 5% some how I am the one who is worse off? Ridiculous.

This crisis is now 5 years old. Comparing pre crisis to now is a reasonable comparison. Alternatively 10 years ago to now or 15 years ago to now.

tenton

Godge wrote: »

According to the CSO data average public sector pay in Ireland is 48k euros.

Actually its €49k a year. The CSO statistics were quoted already.

Godge wrote: »

According to the Daily Mail average public sector pay in the UK is 28k sterling about 34k euros.

Actually that the Daily Mail quoted what the average public sector worker, who works full-time, is paid....not the average public sector wage. There is a difference.
Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2065479/Public-sector-workers-earn-4-000-year-pay-premium-compared-private-staff.html#ixzz2IXed8gqu
Thats why average public sector pay in the UK is considerably less that 28k a year stg.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/economics/7036131/Record-gap-between-public-and-private-sector-pay.html#
See all the controversy over there about how high it is, after several terms of the labour government there, and how many in the UK think their average public sector pay which is nearly half of ours - is too high!

Paulzx

tenton wrote: »

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/economics/7036131/Record-gap-between-public-and-private-sector-pay.html#
See all the controversy over there about how high it is, after several terms of the labour government there, and how many in the UK think their average public sector pay which is nearly half of ours - is too high!

I hardly think that a complete one sided article that is loaded with only one point of view is indicative of the opinion of a whole country:rolleyes:

David Frost, the director general of the British Chambers of Commerce.

Corin Taylor, policy director at the Institute of Directors

ohn Philpott, the chief economist at the Chartered Institute of Personnel and Development.

Not exactly a grouping of contributors conducive to debating differing points of view. In fact their real agenda is quite blatant in the article.

Mr Frost said: "This just isn't sustainable. My members are telling me that they are losing workers to the public sector, because not only can they see the better holidays and pensions, but also now the better pay.

In other words we're pissed off because our staff have the temerity to expect better pay and conditions

"But everyone knows the public sector gravy train is going to be derailed."

Once i see those overused rhetorical words "gravy train" I turn my brain off.


An agenda riddled newspaper article is hardly the pulse of a nation

Itchianus

tenton wrote: »

Actually its €49k a year. The CSO statistics were quoted already.



Actually that the Daily Mail quoted what the average public sector worker, who works full-time, is paid....not the average public sector wage. There is a difference.
Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2065479/Public-sector-workers-earn-4-000-year-pay-premium-compared-private-staff.html#ixzz2IXed8gqu
Thats why average public sector pay in the UK is considerably less that 28k a year stg.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/economics/7036131/Record-gap-between-public-and-private-sector-pay.html#
See all the controversy over there about how high it is, after several terms of the labour government there, and how many in the UK think their average public sector pay which is nearly half of ours - is too high!

Ok I'm gonna try for 3rd time lucky - you keep harping on about the difference between public sector pay in the uk and here, without recognising that there is also a substantial difference between the average private sector pay rates there and here. What would you like to do about that?

tenton

Itchianus wrote: »

Ok I'm gonna try for 3rd time lucky - you keep harping on about the difference between public sector pay in the uk and here, without recognising that there is also a substantial difference between the average private sector pay rates there and here. What would you like to do about that?

First, there is not as big a difference between the private sectors in the 2 countries as there is between the public sectors in the 2 countries.
Second, private sector pay is not paid by the taxpayer.
Third, this thread is about Croke Park 2....therefore public sector pay and government expenditure is what is mainly relevant to the discussion.

repsol

Lot of haters towards the Public Service on here.

Most will either

A)have applied many times unsuccessfully for Gardai ,Fire Brigade etc or not got enough points for nursing or teaching

B)not bothered applying for PS because they were in a better paid job at the time which has now gone pear shaped and are now kicking themselves

C)hate a particular public servant who nicked their wife/girlfriend and view the rest of us getting our pay cut as collateral damage

woodoo

tenton wrote: »

First, there is not as big a difference between the private sectors in the 2 countries as there is between the public sectors in the 2 countries.
Second, private sector pay is not paid by the taxpayer.
Third, this thread is about Croke Park 2....therefore public sector pay and government expenditure is what is mainly relevant to the discussion.

So you want public servants to come down to UK levels but not private sector workers jimmmy

titan18

Itchianus wrote: »

Ok I'm gonna try for 3rd time lucky - you keep harping on about the difference between public sector pay in the uk and here, without recognising that there is also a substantial difference between the average private sector pay rates there and here. What would you like to do about that?

Fwiw, for graduates in IS,IT, finance etc coming out of college, pay in London for some of the bigger investment banks & tech companies are far higher than they are here, even taking into account living expenses

Godge

tenton wrote: »

Actually its €49k a year. The CSO statistics were quoted already.

Wrong.

Q3 2012 CSO statistics show public sector weekly earnings at €925.51. Multiplying by 52.18 to get the annual cost gives a figure of €48,293 which rounds to 48k as I stated and not 49k as you stated.

The link is one of my recent posts.

sean200

tenton wrote: »

so you concede that public sector pay in the UK is nearly half of what it is here.
This despite the fact the UK has higher property tax, fuel charges, water charges , higher rents etc. And despite the fact we are bust / being lent tens of billions of euro anually by the lender of las resort, the IMF, just to keep our show afloat.
Time there was a bit of common sense with our public sector pay rates ( average 49k a year according to statistics )

23.6k a year sterling was average public sector pay in UK exactly 3 years ago, and there was / is a lot of controversy over there about how high that is!

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/economics/7036131/Record-gap-between-public-and-private-sector-pay.html#

One thing for sure they don’t moan as much in the UK as some idiots on this
My pay has gone up by I would say 25% since 2008
I do no overtime, get no allowance act
I am now at the top of the scale so they have to do a direct pay cut to get me and I can afford it.
Talks will break down as no nurse or public sector worker will work Sunday for the same rate as weekday pay.
Pay cuts will be imposed and then we will have strikes leading to the government collapse leading to bailout 2 leading to a massive rise in unemployment leading to bailout number two.
Welcome to Greece except they have cut their national debt by 75% while we still pay bondholders idiots or what in this country???

Godge

OMD wrote: »

No I showed CSO figures showing that in the 5 year period public sector wages on average had not fallen when you include pension levy. You kept on talking about 3 year periods saying I was wrong. Once again I am saying over a five year period. I did not make any reference to private rates of pay over the same period.
Once again as now you have decided that peak to trough is a suitable measure (which is totally stupid) and refuse to accept any other measure. By your measure if I get a pay rise today of 20% and you get no pay rise, then tomorrow I get a pay cut of 10% and you get a cut of 5% some how I am the one who is worse off? Ridiculous.

This crisis is now 5 years old. Comparing pre crisis to now is a reasonable comparison. Alternatively 10 years ago to now or 15 years ago to now.

I have pointed out already several times that public sector and private sector wages were never in sync over a period of 20 years. The national pay agreements had different dates for pay rises for those private sector organisations that followed them and for the public sector. This allowed many people to pick and choose starting dates for statisical comparisons to twist data.

Picking a starting date is the easiest way to twist data to suit your argument. Trying to justify it by reference to external events is questionable. For example, when did the crisis actually start? There is debate over that. Even if we had agreement on the correct start date of the crisis, is that the correct date to use or should we use the date on which the policymakers woke up to the crisis and started to take action? You could say that the day they wrote to the unions saying they weren't paying the next pay increase was the start date of the policy response? So there are a lot of externally justifiable start dates, enough to allow us all to pick and choose a date to suit our arguments.

Alternatively, you could do as I suggest, look at the peak and look where we are now and compare the two for each sector. It avoids all the sneaky attempts to mess with the data. Incidentally the three year period (rather than your five-year twisting of the data) was chosen by the CSO, the ones to whom so many on this site bow down to when they look at the headline comparisons.

As for the ludicrous example you gave of a pay rise one day and a cut the next, maybe you would give an example based on something that really happens. There is plenty of evidence that shows that pay cuts happened for everyone in the public sector, that pay freezes with job cuts were common in the private sector and that pay rises have resumed in the private sector. This is the reality reflected in the data.


P.S. Nowhere in any of your statistics and posts have you accounted for the effects of the pension levy which blow a hole in what is left of your argument.

P.P.S. The ironic thing is I am defending the reality of what has happened which is that the public sector have bourne the heaviest burden (as a sector) than either the private sector or the social benefit sector even though I believe that there are still some public servants who should have their pay cut.

sean200

tenton wrote: »

so you concede that public sector pay in the UK is nearly half of what it is here.
This despite the fact the UK has higher property tax, fuel charges, water charges , higher rents etc. And despite the fact we are bust / being lent tens of billions of euro anually by the lender of las resort, the IMF, just to keep our show afloat.
Time there was a bit of common sense with our public sector pay rates ( average 49k a year according to statistics )

23.6k a year sterling was average public sector pay in UK exactly 3 years ago, and there was / is a lot of controversy over there about how high that is!

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/economics/7036131/Record-gap-between-public-and-private-sector-pay.html#

nternational pay comparisons

According to the IMF, Irish public service pay was 11.2% of GDP in 2011 (the last year for which figures were available). This compares to an OECD average of 11.1% for OECD countries who are members of the EU (or 10.8% of OECD overall). In other words, Irish public service pay is roughly in line with comparable EU countries as a percentage of GDP even before you deduct the so-called ‘pension levy’ (an average 7% deduction), which is not included in the figures.

If comparisons are made on the basis of GNP, Irish public service pay looks higher. But all our ‘troika’ and EU targets are based on GDP and there are other arguments against using GNP as the comparator.

The most recent and comprehensive data on international public sector labour costs comes from the OECD. Its 2011 report found only two groups - hospital consultants and top central government managers - are paid above international standards.
In general, the OECD report says that the cost of employing Irish public servants is about average when adjusted for price differences by measuring ‘relative purchasing power’. Relative purchasing power is routinely used in international comparisons of pay in the public and private sectors. The OECD says its figures capture the so-called 'pension levy' but not the pay cuts (also worth an average of about 7%) imposed in 2010. You can read more about the OECD report HERE.

Many Irish public servants are paid less than their German counterparts

The figures above show that on average Irish public sector pay is in line with pay in comparable European countries. But research shows that certain large groups of Irish public servants – including clerical officers and primary teachers – are paid less than their German counterparts at every stage of their careers, even though the cost of living is 17% higher here.
FACT

tenton

repsol wrote: »

Lot of haters towards the Public Service on here.

Actually I love it just as much as anyone else in any other country loves their public service. However the fact is the country cannot afford such expenditure. THe IMF were called it. The country is fed up paying increasing amounts of tax to try to pay towards the increased government expenditure.
Why should our public servants, as Pat Kenny said the other week, be paid so much more that both the private sector and public sectors in other countries?

Always number 1

As a public servant, I think others in the public service and their unions need to look at these ridiculous "allowances" and be willing to make other sacrifices in order to prevent our pay from being cut again.

I speak for myself when I say that I would have no problem working a few hours extra per week as long as my core pay isn't touched. Shift allowances need to be got rid of, your rostered hours are your rostered hours and if that means working after 6:00 p.m every now and again so be it. Eating on site allowance needs to be scrapped, why should some people get paid towards their lunches and others don't? There are so many more that are even more ridiculous.
I personally don't get any of these allowances but I think people that do get them need to realise that these "extras" have to go, if they want to preserve their pay and ultimately their jobs.

Godge

sean200 wrote: »

One thing for sure they don’t moan as much in the UK as some idiots on this
My pay has gone up by I would say 25% since 2008
I do no overtime, get no allowance act
I am now at the top of the scale so they have to do a direct pay cut to get me and I can afford it.
Talks will break down as no nurse or public sector worker will work Sunday for the same rate as weekday pay.
Pay cuts will be imposed and then we will have strikes leading to the government collapse leading to bailout 2 leading to a massive rise in unemployment leading to bailout number two.
Welcome to Greece except they have cut their national debt by 75% while we still pay bondholders idiots or what in this country???

Can you provide a link to the payscale you are on to demonstrate that your pay has gone up by 25% since 2008. The relevant government department or your union would have this information. As it is general information, you wouldn't be identifying yourself personally and it would provide credibility to your post (which is completely lacking at the minute).

tenton

sean200 wrote: »

If comparisons are made on the basis of GNP, Irish public service pay looks higher. But all our ‘troika’ and EU targets are based on GDP

Our GDP is skewed greatly as you know ( or should know ). In most countries it bears a resemblance to GNP....in Ireland it does not, as we have so many foreign / multinational firms "laundering" their profits through Ireland, brass name plate firms in the International services ctr employing 5 people and turning over billions etc.

In Germany a university professor earns 60k. A hospital consultant thats earns 200k here gets 100k there.

noodler

repsol wrote: »

Lot of haters towards the Public Service on here.

Most will either

A)have applied many times unsuccessfully for Gardai ,Fire Brigade etc or not got enough points for nursing or teaching

B)not bothered applying for PS because they were in a better paid job at the time which has now gone pear shaped and are now kicking themselves

C)hate a particular public servant who nicked their wife/girlfriend and view the rest of us getting our pay cut as collateral damage

Pathetic response. I hope the unions are making better arguments in the CP2 negotiations.

kippy wrote: »

2. If your main point is true why has the pay and pension bill reduced substantially since 2008?

Um, it hasn't?

Are you confusing pay and pensions bill with just pay?

Itchianus

Godge wrote: »

Can you provide a link to the payscale you are on to demonstrate that your pay has gone up by 25% since 2008. The relevant government department or your union would have this information. As it is general information, you wouldn't be identifying yourself personally and it would provide credibility to your post (which is completely lacking at the minute).

The AO scale is the only civil service general service grade that would have steep enough increments - someone reaching the top of the scale in 2012 (ignoring LSI's) would have experienced a 28% increase through increments, notwithstanding the 2010 pay cut. If you take off about 5% for the pension levy that becomes about a 22% increase. As this is supposed to be the graduate recruitment grade for high quality people intended to be future senior managers, I don't think that level of increases is unreasonable (or wouldn't be if proper career development and PMDS were in place).

start of 2008 - €42,397
2008 increment - €45,501
2009 increment - €48,607
2010 pay cut - €45,711
2010 increment - €48,593
2011 increment - €51,466
2012 increment - €54,329

woodoo

Always number 1 wrote: »

As a public servant, I think others in the public service and their unions need to look at these ridiculous "allowances" and be willing to make other sacrifices in order to prevent our pay from being cut again.

I speak for myself when I say that I would have no problem working a few hours extra per week as long as my core pay isn't touched. Shift allowances need to be got rid of, your rostered hours are your rostered hours and if that means working after 6:00 p.m every now and again so be it. Eating on site allowance needs to be scrapped, why should some people get paid towards their lunches and others don't? There are so many more that are even more ridiculous.
I personally don't get any of these allowances but I think people that do get them need to realise that these "extras" have to go, if they want to preserve their pay and ultimately their jobs.

I agree with you on the allowances but i would not be willing to work any more time at all. Get everyone working hard while they are there would be more important.

Itchianus

tenton wrote: »

First, there is not as big a difference between the private sectors in the 2 countries as there is between the public sectors in the 2 countries.
Second, private sector pay is not paid by the taxpayer.
Third, this thread is about Croke Park 2....therefore public sector pay and government expenditure is what is mainly relevant to the discussion.

So what you appear to be saying is that our Public Sector should come down to UK levels, but not our Private Sector?!

titan18 wrote: »

Fwiw, for graduates in IS,IT, finance etc coming out of college, pay in London for some of the bigger investment banks & tech companies are far higher than they are here, even taking into account living expenses

And there you have part of the reason why the pay gap between the private sectors in the 2 countries is narrower - the UK private sector is distorted by the fact that it has a major global commercial/financial hub making up a substantial chunk of it's economy, over 20% directly.

Paulzx

Always number 1 wrote: »

As a public servant, I think others in the public service and their unions need to look at these ridiculous "allowances" and be willing to make other sacrifices in order to prevent our pay from being cut again.

I speak for myself when I say that I would have no problem working a few hours extra per week as long as my core pay isn't touched. Shift allowances need to be got rid of, your rostered hours are your rostered hours and if that means working after 6:00 p.m every now and again so be it. Eating on site allowance needs to be scrapped, why should some people get paid towards their lunches and others don't? There are so many more that are even more ridiculous.
I personally don't get any of these allowances but I think people that do get them need to realise that these "extras" have to go, if they want to preserve their pay and ultimately their jobs.

It's amazing how people that don't work nights or weekends have no problem offering up my wages as a sacrifice.

I work nights, weekends, bank holidays, Xmas day etc. I certainly won't be working them if my pay for doing so is removed. It is common practice in all the multinationals to pay staff shift allowance e.g Intel etc.

"as long as my core pay isn't touched"........you don't give a damn about anyone else.
Shift pay for working unsocial hours is core pay in case you're interested

tenton

Itchianus wrote: »

So what you appear to be saying is that our Public Sector should come down to UK levels, but not our Private Sector?!

We cannot simply afford to continue paying our public servants almost double what they are paid across the border in N.I, or in Britain.

Our private sector pay does not come of of our taxes / is not paid by the governmernt. It is not that far off average UK private sector pay anyway. Average Irish public sector pay is much higher than both average UK public sector pay and average Irish private sector pay. You cannot control what Irish private sector pay is. It will find its own level by market forces. In a way you should hope it is as much as possible because the higher it is, the more tax is paid to the government. If we had a healthy private sector, jobs would be created there and tax revenues would flow.

tenton

Paulzx wrote: »

I work nights, weekends, bank holidays, Xmas day etc. I certainly won't be working them if my pay for doing so is removed.

great you are well enough off to have a choice. Lots of people would love to work 32 hours a week, with lots of paid holidays, in a well paid, secure and well pensioned job, if it just meant working the odd night or weekend shift. Some people I know love working those hours as it means they can sometimes look after their kids during the weekdays instead of paying full-time childcare fees, do sport during daylight hours or whatever.