Croke Park II preliminary Talks started today

18-01-2013 02:45PM

sarumite wrote: »

To be fair, the poster actually said

"2million an hour to service public sector pay, pensions, services and social welfare,".

I don't know what the actual figure per hour is, but the government does spend a lot on the 4 items above.

I appreciate that this poster has made many comments using exactly the same themes, however in the post I quoted they do appear to be attributing the full €2 million to pay.

"To be fair" I think it helps a discussion on "Croke Park II" not one jot to discuss government over-spending which is not within the remit of any future agreement to come from the meetings between Howlin and the PS unions.

OMD · 18-01-2013 03:23PM

RobbieTheRobber wrote: »

I appreciate that this poster has made many comments using exactly the same themes, however in the post I quoted they do appear to be attributing the full €2 million to pay.

"To be fair" I think it helps a discussion on "Croke Park II" not one jot to discuss government over-spending which is not within the remit of any future agreement to come from the meetings between Howlin and the PS unions.

Cost of public sector pay is about €1,500,000 an hour, 24 hours a day, 365 hours a week.

18-01-2013 03:44PM

OMD wrote: »

Cost of public sector pay is about €1,500,000 an hour, 24 hours a day, 365 hours a week.

Before or after tax and are you deducting the pension levy?

Gumbo · 18-01-2013 03:46PM

OMD wrote: »

Cost of public sector pay is about €1,500,000 an hour, 24 hours a day, 365 hours a week.

1.314 X10^10 Bn

What headline figure are you using to get to this cost? And where are you getting it from?

According to figures presented payroll for the health sector cost €7.1bn last year.
the garda pay bill in 2012 was almost €956m.
local government sector, which employs 28,344 employees nationwide, came to just under €1.25bn last year.
The defence sector accounts for 3.5% of the public sector pay bill. (No headline figure given)

OMD · 18-01-2013 04:06PM

kceire wrote: »

1.314 X10^10 Bn

What headline figure are you using to get to this cost? And where are you getting it from?
According to figures presented payroll for the health sector cost €7.1bn last year.

the garda pay bill in 2012 was almost €956m.

local government sector, which employs 28,344 employees nationwide, came to just under €1.25bn last year.

The defence sector accounts for 3.5% of the public sector pay bill. (No headline figure given)

You might want to add teachers and civil servants.

sarumite · 18-01-2013 04:06PM

RobbieTheRobber wrote: »

I appreciate that this poster has made many comments using exactly the same themes, however in the post I quoted they do appear to be attributing the full €2 million to pay.

"To be fair" I think it helps a discussion on "Croke Park II" not one jot to discuss government over-spending which is not within the remit of any future agreement to come from the meetings between Howlin and the PS unions.

No it doesn't, it is clearly referring to the previous post which is on the same page.

I think the remit of any future agreement is to reach a compromise on how best to reduce spending. Over-spending by the government is clearly an important aspect as to why the government want to reduce the costs.

18-01-2013 04:24PM

sarumite wrote: »

No it doesn't, it is clearly referring to the previous post which is on the same page.

No it isn't clear!
I don't understand why you are taking such a truculent approach to me but so be it.

sarumite wrote: »

I think the remit of any future agreement is to reach a compromise on how best to reduce spending. Over-spending by the government is clearly an important aspect as to why the government want to reduce the costs.

The department of Expenditure state this about the Croke park agreement

"The Public Service or “Croke Park” Agreement is a commitment by public servants and their managers to work together to change the way in which the Public Service does its business so that both its cost and the number of people working in the Public Service can fall significantly, while continuing to meet the need for services and improve the experience of service users."
http://per.gov.ie/croke-park-agreement/

No where does that indicate that public servants should be held accountable for the rates of welfare spending in Ireland, nor does the letter Mr Howlin sent on the 8th of January to ICTU indicate that such would be within the remit of any new agreement.

So why is that you believe it is?

OMD · 18-01-2013 04:27PM

RobbieTheRobber wrote: »

No where does that indicate that public servants should be held accountable for the rates of welfare spending in Ireland, nor does the letter Mr Howlin sent on the 8th of January to ICTU indicate that such would be within the remit of any new agreement.

So why is that you believe it is?

I think first you should point out why you think he believes it. My reading if his post does not lead me to the same conclusion as you.

18-01-2013 04:30PM

OMD wrote: »

I think first you should point out why you think he believes it. My reading if his post does not lead me to the same conclusion as you.

Perhaps your reading "his" post wrong then!

Gumbo · 18-01-2013 04:32PM

OMD wrote: »

You might want to add teachers and civil servants.

Thats why im asking what total figure you are using, my list is not exhaustive.
So, are you gona show what figure you are using and where you are getting it from?

OMD · 18-01-2013 04:48PM

kceire wrote: »

Thats why im asking what total figure you are using, my list is not exhaustive.
So, are you gona show what figure you are using and where you are getting it from?

From previous posts in this forum such as theflowing from Godge:
"in 2011 the pay bill will amount to €14,737m, a decrease of 10.5% over the 2009 figure of
€16,471m"

He quoted this to back up his claims. I rounded the figures.

http://per.gov.ie/wp-content/uploads/Analysis-of-Exchequer-Pay-and-Pensions-Bill-2006-2011.pdf

Godge · 18-01-2013 05:32PM

tenton wrote: »

Excellent constructive suggestions. We all - well, most Irish people / people in Ireland - know lots of people in the public service, be they family, friends, relatives , neighbours, clubmates. We all know its overpaid and overpensioned, and over-staffed in many areas. Time to get real.

That is a very simplistic over-generalised anecdote that probably lacks any semblance of reality.

It is like saying that we all know lots of people in the private sector and we know that they are on nixers, fiddling the dole, hiding money from the taxman, over-stating expenses, taking payments on the side etc.

It is not true and not much of a contribution to the debate.

Godge · 18-01-2013 05:38PM

antoobrien wrote: »

HSE administration on both counts.

Prove this with hard figures.

Did you know that hospital manager's hands are tied because of the behaiour of consultants who refuse to recognise that cost restrictions exist and who at national level refuse to agree to work practice changes that will generate efficiencies.

OMD · 18-01-2013 05:49PM

Godge wrote: »

Prove this with hard figures.

Did you know that hospital manager's hands are tied because of the behaiour of consultants who refuse to recognise that cost restrictions exist and who at national level refuse to agree to work practice changes that will generate efficiencies.

Examples please of consultants refusing practice changes that will generate efficiencies. If you are going to discuss weekend discharges please provide evidence

noodler · 18-01-2013 06:25PM

Trokia report after troika report remarks on how well our public servants are paid compared to international equivalents.

Jesus I wish we'd stop protesting that point at every single jucture.

Yes, it isn't true for everybody but that allow for a "its all lies" approach either.

Gumbo · 18-01-2013 06:26PM

OMD wrote: »

Examples please of consultants refusing practice changes that will generate efficiencies. If you are going to discuss weekend discharges please provide evidence

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/ireland/2012/1023/1224325578478.html

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/breaking/2012/1025/breaking3.html

http://www.independent.ie/national-news/consultants-refuse-to-pay-fines-for-breaking-private-practice-quotas-2859473.html

http://www.rte.ie/news/2012/1025/ihca-health-labour-court.html

http://novusmedica.wordpress.com/2012/10/23/consultant-group-refusing-to-attend-hearing-on-work-practice-reforms/

noodler wrote: »

Trokia report after troika report remarks on how well our public servants are paid compared to international equivalents.

Jesus I wish we'd stop protesting that point at every single jucture.

Yes, it isn't true for everybody but that allow for a "its all lies" approach either.

I suppose it works both ways, if people came on and outlined constructively why and where should be cut then people can listen and argue for or against it. Its when alot of people come in and rant/mouth off untrue figures, lies and blatant ignorance of the facts that doesnt do any favours for both sides of the argument.

For instance the average salary in the Local Authority sector is 39k, but yet these staff would be lumbered in with the "Average PS salary is 49k crowd"
Same with the private sector, people post that the average private sector wage is only 620 per week, when agains, that is across all disiplines. Average Industry wage is over 800e, insurance/banking is over 1k per week, but average in the hotel industry is circa 300e per week.

tenton · 19-01-2013 12:45AM

OMD wrote: »

Cost of public sector pay is about €1,500,000 an hour, 24 hours a day, 365 hours a week.

The main reason its so high is because of inefficiency and high pay. The country of Ireland has the same population as greater manchester and yet has 0.3 million highly paid and pensioned public servants feeding off it. A close relation was back from England over Christmas and he was saying how so many English public servants are on 20 / 22 / 24 k a year.

woodoo · 19-01-2013 12:53AM

The problem isn't the public service. The problem is welfare bill and the lack of work. What are the government going to do about the 21 billion welfare bill.

Public servants have given alot.

tenton · 19-01-2013 01:11AM

woodoo wrote: »

Public servants have are given alot.

the dole and social welfare needs to be reduced too, but the elephant in the room is still the absurd public pay and pensions of the top 70 to 80% of public servants.

OMD · 19-01-2013 10:10AM

kceire wrote: »

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/ireland/2012/1023/1224325578478.html

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/breaking/2012/1025/breaking3.html

http://www.independent.ie/national-news/consultants-refuse-to-pay-fines-for-breaking-private-practice-quotas-2859473.html

http://www.rte.ie/news/2012/1025/ihca-health-labour-court.html

http://novusmedica.wordpress.com/2012/10/23/consultant-group-refusing-to-attend-hearing-on-work-practice-reforms/

These do not refer to the consultants refusing efficiencies. This is about the consultants having serious misgivings about government policy. What the government want is for consultants to spread their working week over 7 days. The consultants have no problem with that. What they point out is that this will cost the taxpayer more. The reason being is that unless you employ more consultants, having more working on Saturday and Sunday means less working Mon-Fri. In addition to this, the main reason operations are not performed and waiting lists are growing is not a lack of operating time but the lack of available beds to put patients in after the surgery. All over Ireland consultants are being told they cannot do routine surgery because there are no beds.

The HSE would have you believe there are no consultants working weekends. This is untrue. Consultants on call (who are doing the on-call at a much cheaper rate than their normal daily rate) see patients and discharge people when appropriate.

You may say, well surely consultants could do out patients on a Sunday. At least that would help reduce Out Patient waiting lists. Yes it would but at what cost? All the other workers, nurses, porters, radiographers, lab staff etc would all be earning double time so the cost of seeing patients on a Sunday would be much higher than seeing them on a Monday.

The HSE have come up with a half baked plan and are trying to claim they are trying to make hospitals more efficient.

What consultants are doing is increasing their workload and treating more patients with less resources.

Head The Wall · 19-01-2013 11:16AM

RobbieTheRobber wrote: »

No where does that indicate that public servants should be held accountable for the rates of welfare spending in Ireland, nor does the letter Mr Howlin sent on the 8th of January to ICTU indicate that such would be within the remit of any new agreement.

So why is that you believe it is?

Considering all payments have to come out of the same pot it is a bit naive on your part to think that overspending and waste in the govt is not going to impinge on what is left to pay ye at the end of the day.

Another example of a PS worker living in a bubble detached from the real world.

Gumbo · 19-01-2013 12:31PM

tenton wrote: »

A close relation was back from England over Christmas and he was saying how so many English public servants are on 20 / 22 / 24 k a year.

My cousin was home from the UK at christmas too, and she couldnt get over how expensive day to day things are here compared to the UK. She said she wont be coming home anytime soon.

repsol · 19-01-2013 12:48PM

tenton wrote: »

The main reason its so high is because of inefficiency and high pay. The country of Ireland has the same population as greater manchester and yet has 0.3 million highly paid and pensioned public servants feeding off it. A close relation was back from England over Christmas and he was saying how so many English public servants are on 20 / 22 / 24 k a year.

When all the dole claimants here are on the UK rates,we can consider moving the PS to UK rates also.The taxes would also have to be brought into line with the (scrapping VRT for example) and other costs such as health insurance would have to be the same.You cannot chose the UK system on an A La Carte basis,you have to take the good with the bad.You want UK wages you have to have UK costs of living.

I would hazard a guess that your relative is not a UK public servant as the vast majority of them would be working at Christmas and would not have been able to go on a little holiday to engage in a little PS bashing over the Xmas dinner table.I hope you enjoyed Xmas with your family while many Gardai ,nurses,firemen,prison officers were unable to spend Xmas with their families as they had to work.I don't know if you have a job but if you do I am sure you are paid more than your equivalent in the UK.

OMD · 19-01-2013 01:10PM

repsol wrote: »

When all the dole claimants here are on the UK rates,we can consider moving the PS to UK rates also.The taxes would also have to be brought into line with the (scrapping VRT for example) and other costs such as health insurance would have to be the same.You cannot chose the UK system on an A La Carte basis,you have to take the good with the bad.You want UK wages you have to have UK costs of living.

Not forgetting higher taxes, water rates and much higher council tax. Add higher petrol costs as well. Don't forget higher rent costs and so many other costs that are higher in UK. Overall UK cost of living is about 3% less than Ireland

tenton · 19-01-2013 01:27PM

OMD wrote: »

Not forgetting higher taxes, water rates and much higher council tax. Add higher petrol costs as well. Don't forget higher rent costs and so many other costs that are higher in UK. Overall UK cost of living is about 3% less than Ireland

Property tax is much higher in the UK...shoes are cheaper in Ireland than UK. Many things are cheaper in Ireland. You cannot seriously complain about the price of many things in Ireland now. Was in Pennys the other day and saw clothes for next to nothing. McDonalds sell hamburgers for a euro. You can buy a 2 - bedroom apartment in many parts of Ireland for less than a years public service salary now. You cannot do that in England or anywhere else. I think everyone knows in Croke Park2 that there will rightfully be major cuts, as the country cannot afford to overpay so many so much for so long.

OMD · 19-01-2013 02:26PM

tenton wrote: »

Property tax is much higher in the UK...shoes are cheaper in Ireland than UK. Many things are cheaper in Ireland. You cannot seriously complain about the price of many things in Ireland now. Was in Pennys the other day and saw clothes for next to nothing. McDonalds sell hamburgers for a euro. You can buy a 2 - bedroom apartment in many parts of Ireland for less than a years public service salary now. You cannot do that in England or anywhere else. I think everyone knows in Croke Park2 that there will rightfully be major cuts, as the country cannot afford to overpay so many so much for so long.

Agree fully. My post was saying how dear so many things are in UK

repsol · 19-01-2013 02:26PM

OMD wrote: »

Not forgetting higher taxes, water rates and much higher council tax. Add higher petrol costs as well. Don't forget higher rent costs and so many other costs that are higher in UK. Overall UK cost of living is about 3% less than Ireland

There are huge variations within the UK alone.The cost of living in London is way above the cost of living in Newcastle for example.I can tell you as a member of the PS that the feeling is we have given as much as we can.If we are pushed any further I can see an all out strike.I think it would be no harm to remind people what it is we do.The PS can bring this country to a halt very easily.Private sector workers cannot work if the schools are closed and they have to look after their own kids.The last time their was a fair amount of goodwill (maintaining vital services) so as not to lose public sympathy.I think PS workers now realize that the public have a combination of jealousy/resentment towards our pay and conditions so we have nothing to lose by hitting them very hard.If you keep pushing, a day will come when nobody answers the 999 call,nobody will treat people in hospital,there will be no social welfare waiting in the post office on pay day etc.That day is a lot nearer than you think.If you want to save money,reduce the dole.

Silentcorner · 19-01-2013 02:59PM

"I think PS workers now realize that the public have a combination of jealousy/resentment towards our pay and conditions so we have nothing to lose by hitting them very hard" Quote by repsol

I have to say you are completely incorrect, you'll find that most people working in the Private sector, especially those in the SME sector work in a "cut your cloth according to your measure" basis, if not you will go out of business, and lose your jobs, many have been caught without wages or redundancy...and after the shock of losing their jobs they then face a hostile jobs market...in other words serious consequences...it is from these circumstances that most opinions are forged...

So it is not "jealousy or resentment" ( nobody was jealous or resentful when this mystifying benchmarking was implemented), most PS bodies who went on strike did receive good support for the public, the problem most people have is the exact same concerns the Troika have (as was outlined last week), does that make the Troika "jealous and resentful"...

If you think you have nothing to lose by hitting the private sector hard you are sadly mistaken...you will be strengthening the hand of your opposition in negotiations, imagine how damaged your campaign would be if it had no support from the taxpayer/voter/ the troika (who are in part picking up the bill)

Paulzx · 19-01-2013 03:05PM

tenton wrote: »

. You can buy a 2 - bedroom apartment in many parts of Ireland for less than a years public service salary now. .

You could also buy it with the same private sector salary. Is the money different? Whats your point?

Sounds very like what a former poster on here used to constantly parrot

ardmacha · 19-01-2013 04:05PM

The country of Ireland has the same population as greater manchester and yet has 0.3 million highly paid and pensioned public servants feeding off it.

Is this an inappropriate number? Does the ROI have more policemen or teachers per capita than Manchester?

Property tax is much higher in the UK...

Which makes we wonder if we have such bad public finances why property tax is not also much higher here?

Croke Park II preliminary Talks started today

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