HMV closing (again)

Fysh · 15-01-2013 04:10PM

EnterNow wrote: »

Why the hell shouldn't the vouchers be honored, HMV were paid for them so effectively they have money in the tills that wouldn't have been there had the vouchers not been sold.

The terms of the voucher have not been enforced, they have in fact been ignored. From the very voucher in my hand:

So no, the terms have not been enforced, they've been ignored. No relevant notice about the invalidity of cards was communicated to consumers either by way of store displays or the website - they were, in fact, being sold by HMV until close of business yesterday.

The problem with any in-store voucher is that while they serve the same function as money for transactional purposes in the shop, they aren't the same as money. They are effectively a credit note from HMV to the holder. This is why they have terms that differ to ordinary currency.

HMV having gone into administration, any credit they may have extended to customers is suspended - because the point of administration is to try and salvage as much of the company's value as possible. This means that for the short term they are legally protected from any creditor pursuing them for the debt - which unfortunately includes anyone with a voucher

What should happen is that, once the administrators have had a look at the state of things and identified the major debts and strategies for paying them, an announcement will be made on the use of existing vouchers. I would be very surprised if you don't get the option to use your voucher in some fashion, but chances are you won't have the cream of the crop to choose from

Unfortunately the lesson here is not to hold on to gift vouchers for any longer than absolutely necessary.

On the topic of "when were you last in HMV", I've only been into HMV to buy something once in the last 2 years - and that was because they had a surprisingly good deal on the complete NuBSG box set. (I had to get it replaced once since some of the discs were faulty too). The Oxford Street HMV had a pretty good selection of world cinema DVDs and Blu-Rays, but the mark-up was still painful enough that I wouldn't be seeking it out over any other source (especially since I normally avoid Oxford St like the plague, it's my idea of retail hell

).

Folks in smaller towns and cities will feel the pain from this - for example, the HMV in Oxford was pretty decent when I was there so that'll be a real loss with effectively no equivalent alternatives locally.

abbeyrock · 15-01-2013 04:11PM

Terrible news about HMV and feel sorry for their workers , but not to be harsh but selling hard copies of dvds and cds was going to end soon anyway, similar to bank branches. I had a good idea for the vouchers, if everyone who has a voucher came together under 1 identity they would become the largest beneficiary moving them up the food chain.

Myrddin · 15-01-2013 04:23PM

Theboinkmaster wrote: »

Your voucher at the date of administration is a liability on their balance sheet and so the only way to keep the business going is to write off most of the liabilities and sell the business as a going concern.

So basically:

"Here's €50 we got from selling a voucher, lets cancel the voucher & use the €50 to pay off people we owe money to instead"

Madness, its money they wouldn't have had only for selling the voucher - it should not be allowed to be used as collateral. I don't agree that profit they have from selling vouchers, can be just ignored.

And to be honest i don't have much sympathy for voucher holders

I do, their money is sitting in HMV's tills while HMV have declared such money/profit non existent & instead call their responsibilities liabilities. Pity we all can't do the same

wampyrus77 · 15-01-2013 04:58PM

when a business store closing down theres always clearance sale, I say HMV will have one 2

sink · 15-01-2013 05:01PM

EnterNow wrote: »

Pity we all can't do the same

You can it's called a declaration of insolvency.

candy-gal1 · 15-01-2013 05:03PM

Really sad and bad news there

I basically grew up with HMV, and its still top of the list if not number one shop to go to when about the place for shopping now! As much as downloading are great, its always nice to head into HMV to pick out some great bargains like the 2e dvds thing they have going since last year in some branches

Xtra Vision has got better for buying dvds in the past yearish, but I will miss HMV a hell of a lot if it actually does go under!

Myrddin · 15-01-2013 05:04PM

sink wrote: »

You can it's called a declaration of insolvency.

So if I go out & buy some stuff on my credit card, then choose not to pay the bill & instead pay off the credit union instead that'll be ok? Cool I'll declare that thing so.

403 Forbidden · 15-01-2013 05:05PM

wampyrus77 wrote: »

when a business store closing down theres always clearance sale, I say HMV will have one 2

Most items are under "Sale or Return" Contract, So Stock will be returned for credit

Currently there is 25% off nearly everything.

johnny_ultimate · 15-01-2013 05:07PM

A probable and regrettable casualty of this will be Fopp - HMV's offshoot store that offers excellent deals on world / independent cinema and music. Always enjoy popping in when visiting London, and rarely emerge empty handed. Shame there's no Irish equivalent.

sink · 15-01-2013 05:12PM

EnterNow wrote: »

So if I go out & buy some stuff on my credit card, then choose not to pay the bill & instead pay off the credit union instead that'll be ok? Cool I'll declare that thing so.

Well no, the courts will take control of your assets and pay back your creditors as they see fit for a period of up to 12 years during which time you will not be allowed to direct a company. Similarly the board of HMV are no longer in control of their assets and are being administered by a third party (Deloitte) who will after some restructuring try to sell the company as a going concern or break it up and pay they creditors what they can.

krudler · 15-01-2013 05:14PM

johnny_ultimate wrote: »

A probable and regrettable casualty of this will be Fopp - HMV's offshoot store that offers excellent deals on world / independent cinema and music. Always enjoy popping in when visiting London, and rarely emerge empty handed. Shame there's no Irish equivalent.

I don't want Fopp goddamit I'm a Dapper Dan man!

Myrddin · 15-01-2013 05:16PM

sink wrote: »

Well no, the courts will take control of your assets and pay back your creditors as they see fit for a period of up to 12 years during which time you will not be allowed to direct a company. Similarly the board of HMV are no longer in control of their assets and are being administered by a third party (Deloitte) who will after some restructuring try to sell the company as a going concern or break it up and pay they creditors what they can.

Yeah I was being silly really with that analogy, but nonetheless, its all kinds of wrong that the profit from selling vouchers is just given away to pay other debts & the obligation to fulfill voucher policy is now called a liability. I know they're protected by law, but more often than not, the law is an ass as they say.

If they do manage to salvage the company, I'll be hard pressed to every shop in it after the bitter taste this has left in my mouth. The fact they openly sold vouchers up until close of business last night & today they declare all vouchers practically invalid is hardly admirable.

roanoke · 15-01-2013 05:37PM

Employee : Would you like to buy some HMV gift vouchers?

Homer Simpson: What's that?

Employee : Well it's currency that's made just for HMV. It works just like regular money, but it's, er..."fun".

ViveLaVie · 15-01-2013 05:46PM

DjFlin wrote: »

Yes piracy is an issue, but not the only one. Or even the biggest one.

The business model is changing, and its getting harder for brick & mortar stores to keep up.

I used to love going to HMV to get the bargin 3.99 DVD's, but now Netflix has most of those movies for €7 a month on demand. Its hard to stick with HMV for that.

Then we get to the pricier products. Last time I was in HMV i was looking at the Lord Of The Rings blu ray box set. It was €45, Amazon had it for 12 Pounds (So about €16). Its hard not to go with Amazon.

On top of that, I've alway kind of disliked HMV because of how they tend to sell used games at almost the same price as new. But thats not just HMV, GameStop (and Game when they were still around) are just as guilty of that.

I got the Lord of the Rings Blu-Ray Boxset in HMV for fifteen euro at Christmas. Cheaper than Amazon and no waiting around for delivery.

Theboinkmaster · 15-01-2013 05:49PM

EnterNow wrote: »

Yeah I was being silly really with that analogy, but nonetheless, its all kinds of wrong that the profit from selling vouchers is just given away to pay other debts & the obligation to fulfill voucher policy is now called a liability. I know they're protected by law, but more often than not, the law is an ass as they say.

If they do manage to salvage the company, I'll be hard pressed to every shop in it after the bitter taste this has left in my mouth. The fact they openly sold vouchers up until close of business last night & today they declare all vouchers practically invalid is hardly admirable.

No offence but you seem very Naïve. Yes it is unfair but it's just business and the reality of Ireland in the current climate. I can guarantee you there a bigger creditors out there than you and your voucher, and they could actually be put out of business. I know companies who have lost millions of euro overnight, and then expected to continue to trade with the company taking the loss on the chin. Others have lost a month or two's invoices and have ceased to trade as a result, having to let go employees etc.

Fysh · 15-01-2013 05:51PM

EnterNow wrote: »

Yeah I was being silly really with that analogy, but nonetheless, its all kinds of wrong that the profit from selling vouchers is just given away to pay other debts & the obligation to fulfill voucher policy is now called a liability. I know they're protected by law, but more often than not, the law is an ass as they say.

If they do manage to salvage the company, I'll be hard pressed to every shop in it after the bitter taste this has left in my mouth. The fact they openly sold vouchers up until close of business last night & today they declare all vouchers practically invalid is hardly admirable.

I do agree that it's a bit underhanded to have internal discussions about going into administration in December but continue selling vouchers over the Christmas holidays regardless.

However, the same thing happened with GAME and is quite common when a company goes into administration. The only sane solution is to not sit on gift vouchers for any longer than absolutely necessary.

This doesn't make it right, though, and it's worth making a fuss (in a constructive and well-directed fashion) to see if you can get some form of refund or compensation. Don't give grief to the shop staff; this decision was taken by Deloitte as administrators for the company, so you'd need to find out what way you can get your complaint channeled to them, and be persistent with it.

Myrddin · 15-01-2013 06:07PM

Theboinkmaster wrote: »

No offence but you seem very Naïve. Yes it is unfair but it's just business and the reality of Ireland in the current climate. I can guarantee you there a bigger creditors out there than you and your voucher, and they could actually be put out of business. I know companies who have lost millions of euro overnight, and then expected to continue to trade with the company taking the loss on the chin. Others have lost a month or two's invoices and have ceased to trade as a result, having to let go employees etc.

Well if its naive to feel a bit hard done by because money I or someone else gave to HMV is being used to pay off their debts rather than to provide me with a product...they by all means call me naive.

I couldn't give a flying toss about bigger creditors, or companies losing million tbh...the way I see it, they've taken money off people in the streets, given them a worthless piece of card, & used said money to pay off their own debts. I know they're legally protected, that still doesn't make it right.

Fysh · 15-01-2013 06:13PM

EnterNow wrote: »

Well if its naive to feel a bit hard done by because money I or someone else gave to HMV is being used to pay off their debts rather than to provide me with a product...they by all means call me naive.

I couldn't give a flying toss about bigger creditors, or companies losing million tbh...the way I see it, they've taken money off people in the streets, given them a worthless piece of card, & used said money to pay off their own debts. I know they're legally protected, that still doesn't make it right.

Apparently in the UK there are consumer rights groups campaigning to get this changed because of how often it's happened in the last few years.

There's a helpful roundup explaining the situation and your rights over on the BBC website, for those wondering what they can do.

DirkVoodoo · 15-01-2013 06:18PM

The way I see it, it's the middle of January. No company goes from being totally solvent to administration only 3 weeks after the biggest shopping season of the year.

Management probably saw this coming a long time ago, and while there is no law against it, I regard it as highly unethical to continue selling vouchers that they would have known they probably wouldn't be able to honour in the new year if they had to seek an administrator.

Were they hoping for some magical Christmas turnaround to all their problems rather than addressing what is really wrong with the business?

Miracle on Grafton Street doesn't have quite the same ring to it.

15-01-2013 06:27PM

ViveLaVie wrote: »

I got the Lord of the Rings Blu-Ray Boxset in HMV for fifteen euro at Christmas. Cheaper than Amazon and no waiting around for delivery.

It was going for about €11-12 in Amazon at xmas.

johnny_ultimate · 15-01-2013 06:36PM

DirkVoodoo wrote: »

Were they hoping for some magical Christmas turnaround to all their problems rather than addressing what is really wrong with the business?

Christmas is traditionally the busiest time for media retail, and they were hoping that the sales would be enough to keep them going short-term while they readjusted their long-term finance plans. The festive sales were ultimately lower than expected. Furthermore, its much publicised that they had contacted the studios, labels and game publishers to seek out a significant credit scheme - after all, HMV is still a major revenue source for these companies, and its in their best interests to keep it open to showcase and sell their wares. It was after the external companies declined the 'bail-out' that administration became necessary.

As I said elsewhere, stopping the sale of vouchers prior to administration would have been admitting defeat, which would have had a catastrophic impact on their sales, suppliers, stakeholders etc... And there was more than sufficient warning about the risks of buying vouchers in many media outlets throughout November and December. HMV's woes were much publicised, but they weren't going to throw in the towel until defeat was a 100% certainty. That defeat occured yesterday. And, again, don't abandon ye all hope just yet - vouchers may yet be honoured, just not today.

FlashD · 15-01-2013 07:56PM

I don't know how anyone would be surprised with HMV going into administration. The writings on the wall for this sales format of the industry.

I imagine running a record, dvd or game store must be like rowing a canoe with a large hole in the middle of the atlantic without a life jacket!

Myrddin · 15-01-2013 08:17PM

FlashD wrote: »

I imagine running a record, dvd or game store must be like rowing a canoe with a large hole in the middle of the atlantic without a life jacket!

Except in this case the owner of the canoe sold loads of tickets for tours in the canoe, cancelled the tours & used the money to pay off his mortgage.

DjFlin · 15-01-2013 08:46PM

ViveLaVie wrote: »

I got the Lord of the Rings Blu-Ray Boxset in HMV for fifteen euro at Christmas. Cheaper than Amazon and no waiting around for delivery.

Fair enough. I got mine around October.

Maybe HMV end up cheaper than Amazon for folks willing to wait a little longer. But playing the long game is risky, as HMV have no doubt come to realise.

On a side note, Lord of The Rings looks damn good on Blu-ray, wouldn't you agree?

nix · 15-01-2013 09:17PM

If they refuse your purchase with vouchers just run out the door and bloody nick it, if ya get caught you probably won't get charged as the company will be bust and no more by the time it gets through our ****ty justice system..

Fight robbery with robbery!

FlashD · 15-01-2013 09:19PM

EnterNow wrote: »

Except in this case the owner of the canoe sold loads of tickets for tours in the canoe, cancelled the tours & used the money to pay off his mortgage.

Lets just say all them coupons are in the canoe so

ViveLaVie · 15-01-2013 09:32PM

I Kill You Scum! wrote: »

It was going for about €11-12 in Amazon at xmas.

Fair enough but it was still a very good price in HMV. I assume it didn't qualify for free delivery on Amazon and so potentially was still cheaper in store.

DjFlin wrote: »

Fair enough. I got mine around October.
Maybe HMV end up cheaper than Amazon for folks willing to wait a little longer. But playing the long game is risky, as HMV have no doubt come to realise.

On a side note, Lord of The Rings looks damn good on Blu-ray, wouldn't you agree?

I agree but they did have some great deals for Christmas. I got good Sony headphones for half price there too.

It's stunning, of course!

Nervous Wreck · 15-01-2013 09:34PM

Sad Professor wrote: »

It doesn't work like that. Secured creditors come first. Gift card holders just have to get in line. However if the vouchers were purchased with credit card get onto your bank and they can do a charge back.

This also works for Visa Debit btw. Not sure about Laser though.

Myrddin · 15-01-2013 09:36PM

FlashD wrote: »

Lets just say all them coupons are in the canoe so

The one with the hole in it? Oh great

Goldstein · 15-01-2013 09:38PM

Fairly disgraceful to not honour vouchers tbh. I assumed that would be totally illegal. They're still trading so it's effectively fraud.

If it was me I'd arrange with some fellow creditors to stage a very noisey sit-in with the intent of disrupting sales as much as possible. Wouldn't have to be for long - an hour or two even on at the busiest time on Saturday. Make a sign or two and ask customers to stay away. Force them to deal with the issue instead of dismissing it.

HMV closing (again)

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