Garda wiped driving slate for two judges and RTE presenter

MagicSean · 23-12-2012 04:00PM

WileyCoyote wrote: »

When the discretion is being used as a perk of the job, and those who appear to benifit are celebs, Garda spouses and family members etc , then I say yes end it now!

The important word in that post is "appear". In the vast majority of cases it is not a celebrity or family member. It is someone who made a mistake or is in a bad situation. Someone who acknowledges and recognised their mistake and demonstrates genuine remorse. Someone who would benefit more from compassion and understanding than a trip to the courthouse or a fine.

Death and Taxes · 23-12-2012 04:04PM

MagicSean wrote: »

The important word in that post is "appear". In the vast majority of cases it is not a celebrity or family member. It is someone who made a mistake or is in a bad situation. Someone who acknowledges and recognised their mistake and demonstrates genuine remorse. Someone who would benefit more from compassion and understanding than a trip to the courthouse or a fine.

The point is that in many cases there are very real questions as to whether it was compassion or an abuse of process to dig out a mate/collegue/wife of a collegue.
Now it is being suggested that more serious cases were also disappeared.
Public confidence in the Gardai should not be jeopardised by failing to have a fully independent inquiry into these claims.

Conmaicne Mara · 23-12-2012 04:06PM

Anyone keeping their ear to the ground in this country shouldn't be one bit surprised by any of this. It is how this country works because all of our "systems" are completely broken. It is the same thing as people going to a TD to get problems fixed, whether that's a pothole, or difficulties with civil/public servants not doing their job.

It will continue unabated until we have systems that Joe & Josephine Public can access properly and which work effectively and efficently, not at the whim of ego's and personal opinions.

Iwannahurl · 23-12-2012 04:13PM

niallo27 wrote: »

No im not, I'm a normal bloke who got a few speeding tickets and the odd no tax ticket.

Did you seek to have the tickets "terminated", "squared", "quashed" or otherwise rescinded?

If so, did you succeed?

Do you know of anyone else who "got a few speeding tickets and the odd no tax ticket", and made a successful appeal via someone they knew in AGS?

Iwannahurl · 23-12-2012 04:18PM

WileyCoyote wrote: »

When the discretion is being used as a perk of the job, and those who appear to benifit are celebs, Garda spouses and family members etc , then I say yes end it now!

Garda discretion is a legal/formal power, apparently, and it is being presented here and elsewhere as if it were always used in a rational, commonsense, transparent, accountable and fair manner.

Yet we know in this country that 'pull', family connections, political affiliations and social status have long being used to acquire personal advantages of one sort or another.

Conmaicne Mara wrote: »

Anyone keeping their ear to the ground in this country shouldn't be one bit surprised by any of this. It is how this country works because all of our "systems" are completely broken. It is the same thing as people going to a TD to get problems fixed, whether that's a pothole, or difficulties with civil/public servants not doing their job.

It will continue unabated until we have systems that Joe & Josephine Public can access properly and which work effectively and efficently, not at the whim of ego's and personal opinions.

It's called clientelism, I believe. This kind of patronage/'brokerage' is usually associated with TDs and Councillors, but in my opinion it's also the way many State institutions work, at local level especially.

Now that I think of it, statutory bodies have to be working that way, or politicians would never get a look in.

.

Conmaicne Mara · 23-12-2012 04:34PM

Iwannahurl wrote: »

It's called clientelism, I believe. This kind of patronage/'brokerage' is usually associated with TDs and Councillors, but in my opinion it's also the way many State institutions work, at local level especially.

Now that I think of it, statutory bodies have to be working that way, or politicians would never get a look in.

.

I've had to go to TD's before. Could get nowhere as a Joe Soap with certain Departments. No replies to letters, no answering phones, if they did answer the relevent person wasn't available yadda yadda. Sit in a TD's office, outline the problem, they lift the phone, no, don't want to talk to you, want to talk to Mr Whomever, MR Whomever is magically there and available.

It is like witnessing a miracle. But, what choice have people when the way something is supposed to be done doesn't work, won't work, can't work, or is corrupted.

niallo27 · 23-12-2012 05:10PM

Iwannahurl wrote: »

Did you seek to have the tickets "terminated", "squared", "quashed" or otherwise rescinded?

If so, did you succeed?

Do you know of anyone else who "got a few speeding tickets and the odd no tax ticket", and made a successful appeal via someone they knew in AGS?

Where is your question leading?.

Iwannahurl · 23-12-2012 08:30PM

niallo27 wrote: »

Sure we all know someone in some industry that will do us a favour, why is it so shocking that guards do it.

niallo27 wrote: »

No im not, I'm a normal bloke who got a few speeding tickets and the odd no tax ticket.

My impression is that you think there's nothing pass remarkable about Gardai 'terminating' offences recorded on the Pulse system, perhaps as a favour to people who know them, in certain circumstances.

My question isn't leading anywhere. I'm just wondering whether you have direct experience of that process, and if so can you give some insights into how it works.

I've never received anything more than a parking fine, so I don't know what it's like to be in the position of needing or wanting to have a speeding/Motor Tax ticket cancelled!

MagicSean · 23-12-2012 09:23PM

WileyCoyote wrote: »

That post is reminicent of what so many in the Gardai were saying for years when challenged about goings on in Donegal. They were dismissive and patronizing while covering huge abuses of power and criminal activity.

Some people just aren't happy unless they hear what they want to. I'm sorry this isn't some major scandal for you to dig your teeth into.

Death and Taxes · 23-12-2012 09:28PM

MagicSean wrote: »

Some people just aren't happy unless they hear what they want to. I'm sorry this isn't some major scandal for you to dig your teeth into.

That post is also reminiscent of the things the Gardai were saying about allegations of abuse of power and serious criminality by serving Gardai in Donegal as they tried to bury the story.
It took a tribunal to unearth the truth there, looks like we need another one here.

eyeroad yearowl one · 23-12-2012 09:31PM

MagicSean wrote: »

This "whistleblower" seems quite disgruntled. I've read the latest scandal. He's merely highlighting some incidents where prosecutional discretion has been used and lumping them in with others in pulse that look similar. It's like a PR campaign he's launching and he's relying on people with little understanding of the legal system to make a mountain out of it. At the end of the day if a Garda's discretion is reduced or removed the only people who will suffer are the regular joe soaps who make a simple mistake and might benefit from a simple caution. I think the relevent saying is "Be careful what you wish for".

Does "Garda Discretion" not just mean that if a guard stops you for doing 31 in a 30 zone and you are bringing your sick child to the hospital, he can judge the situation and say "go on there now missus" and not enter it into the system at all or does it extend to calling another guard in another jurisdiction (I don't know the right word, say another county) and saying "Haigh, you fined me pal Billy Joe for speeding last week. I see it here on the system. Could you make that go away there now like a good fella. Don't forget I "lost" that paperwork that time that quare wan was accusing your brother of assaulting her in that nightclub".

Seems terrible that you are blaming the whistleblower or insinuations against him. It's like you are trying to blacken him. So what if he has a grudge for some reason; as long as he has the proof and it is real, his motivations for exposing it do not negate the underlying wrongs.

I hope that any guard who is found to have done this is taken to task and if they have done it repeatedly, that they lose their jobs.

niallo27 · 23-12-2012 10:24PM

Iwannahurl wrote: »

My impression is that you think there's nothing pass remarkable about Gardai 'terminating' offences recorded on the Pulse system, perhaps as a favour to people who know them, in certain circumstances.

My question isn't leading anywhere. I'm just wondering whether you have direct experience of that process, and if so can you give some insights into how it works.

I've never received anything more than a parking fine, so I don't know what it's like to be in the position of needing or wanting to have a speeding/Motor Tax ticket cancelled!

A phone call is all it takes, sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't, it all depends on the guard that caught you.

MagicSean · 24-12-2012 01:35PM

WileyCoyote wrote: »

That post is also reminiscent of the things the Gardai were saying about allegations of abuse of power and serious criminality by serving Gardai in Donegal as they tried to bury the story.
It took a tribunal to unearth the truth there, looks like we need another one here.

I you have any links to these quotes you are "reminiscing" about feel free to link them if you want to continue implying corruption all around.

I find your stance a bit contradictory. You claim gardai should be enforcing the law yet you defend a Garda for breaching the data protection act on a massive way. Thousands of people's information released but you're ok with that?

ethorpe · 24-12-2012 01:47PM

There seems to be a lot of people here surprised that this goes on. I've a relation in the force and I've had a few traffic violations "sorted". Just the way things work in Ireland.

NIMAN · 24-12-2012 01:54PM

Without wanting to read the entire thread, was the RTE presenter ever named?

Death and Taxes · 24-12-2012 01:56PM

MagicSean wrote: »

I you have any links to these quotes you are "reminiscing" about feel free to link them if you want to continue implying corruption all around.

I find your stance a bit contradictory. You claim gardai should be enforcing the law yet you defend a Garda for breaching the data protection act on a massive way. Thousands of people's information released but you're ok with that?

Totally satisfied that the whistleblowers had no option but to do the right thing in the face of inaction at the highest levels.
I have not said corruption is all around, all I want as a citizen of this state is transparency, politicans get investigated by tribunals, the church is not allowed investigate itself eith, so why should such a powerful organ of the state not also be open to independent scrutiny?

Iwannahurl · 24-12-2012 02:01PM

MagicSean wrote: »

You claim gardai should be enforcing the law yet you defend a Garda for breaching the data protection act on a massive way. Thousands of people's information released but you're ok with that?

A thought occurs: to the best of your knowledge, how many people have been killed or injured due to breaches of the Data Protection Act?

Perhaps the whistleblower is using his/her discretion? Greater good etc?

MagicSean · 24-12-2012 02:13PM

WileyCoyote wrote: »

Totally satisfied that the whistleblowers had no option but to do the right thing in the face of inaction at the highest levels.
I have not said corruption is all around, all I want as a citizen of this state is transparency, politicans get investigated by tribunals, the church is not allowed investigate itself eith, so why should such a powerful organ of the state not also be open to independent scrutiny?

So gardai should break the rules and the law if they believe they are doing the right thing?

Death and Taxes · 24-12-2012 02:41PM

MagicSean wrote: »

So gardai should break the rules and the law if they believe they are doing the right thing?

Where it is to expose large scale abuse of power, where it is to expose potentially serious levels of corruption, where it is to expose the preferential treatment of the friends and family of some gardai, then in that specific case I believe the whistleblowers (there are more than one) are correct to break the "omerta" and go to the politicans after all that is also what happened in Donegal.
PS what law have they broken?

Going Forward · 24-12-2012 08:58PM

ethorpe wrote: »

There seems to be a lot of people here surprised that this goes on. I've a relation in the force and I've had a few traffic violations "sorted". Just the way things work in Ireland.

I admire your honesty- Corruption. And you think its ok.
The kind of underhand and crooked
behaviour you and your relation engage in is what keeps this country so screwed up.

Proof that Wallace and Daly are correct to pursue the matter.

MagicSean · 24-12-2012 11:22PM

WileyCoyote wrote: »

Where it is to expose large scale abuse of power, where it is to expose potentially serious levels of corruption, where it is to expose the preferential treatment of the friends and family of some gardai, then in that specific case I believe the whistleblowers (there are more than one) are correct to break the "omerta" and go to the politicans after all that is also what happened in Donegal.
PS what law have they broken?

Data Protection Act primarily.

So it's ok to break the rules and the law if it's for the greater good or for something you believe to be right? I'm sure you see the problem in adopting a postion like that while judging Gardaí for using their discretion to decide wether to let people off.

Going Forward · 25-12-2012 01:06AM

MagicSean wrote: »

Data Protection Act primarily.

So it's ok to break the rules and the law if it's for the greater good or for something you believe to be right? I'm sure you see the problem in adopting a postion like that while judging Gardaí for using their discretion to decide wether to let people off.

Yes, if its for the greater good and to protect society.

You either dont understand "discretion" or wish it to be abused by Gardai.

Garda discretion as commonly understood and accepted by the majority of people is exercised in situ, vis a vis, person to person, at the point of contact, not some weeks or months later as a result of a well placed phone call.

Going Forward · 25-12-2012 01:20AM

MagicSean wrote: »

Data Protection Act primarily.

So it's ok to break the rules and the law if it's for the greater good or for something you believe to be right? I'm sure you see the problem in adopting a postion like that while judging Gardaí for using their discretion to decide wether to let people off.

Yes, if its for the greater good and to protect society.

You either dont understand "discretion" or wish it to be abused by Gardai in the context of suspected road traffic offences.

Garda discretion as commonly understood and accepted by the majority of people is exercised in situ, vis a vis, person to person, at the point of contact, not some weeks or months later as a result of a well placed phone call.

To expect anything else is to accept that every person who has penalty points has the absolute right to expect them to be purged upon supplying a good excuse.

Death and Taxes · 25-12-2012 10:02AM

MagicSean wrote: »

Data Protection Act primarily.

So it's ok to break the rules and the law if it's for the greater good or for something you believe to be right? I'm sure you see the problem in adopting a postion like that while judging Gardaí for using their discretion to decide wether to let people off.

No greater difficulty than you appear to have seperating the concepts of carefully exercised discretion, and downright corruption.
Which is a pity because I get the genuine sense that you personally are a genuine stand up type of guy to whom I have no problem wishing a happy and safe Christmas.:)

Iwannahurl · 25-12-2012 11:29AM

MagicSean wrote: »

Data Protection Act primarily.

So it's ok to break the rules and the law if it's for the greater good or for something you believe to be right? I'm sure you see the problem in adopting a postion like that while judging Gardaí for using their discretion to decide wether to let people off.

How many people have been killed or injured due to breaches of the Data Protection Act?

punchdrunk · 25-12-2012 11:35AM

I can't wait for this storyline in next seasons Love/Hate

Iwannahurl · 25-12-2012 11:49AM

It kinds of ruins the storyline if the key characters know how to have their wrongdoing made to disappear!

Boombastic · 30-12-2012 05:45PM

I wonder were all these people, who just happen to be related to the Gardai involved, speeding to hospital with sick children aswell?

Garda 'quashed points for 10 relatives'

A serving garda officer quashed penalty points for 10 members of his own family, according to a dossier compiled by a whistleblower that is currently being investigated by the Garda Commissioner.

The document also alleges that a garda inspector in Dublin quashed six tickets for one family outside his jurisdiction without consulting the garda who issued the penalty points.

Further claims show that a motorist caught driving at 220kmh in a 120kmh zone with no seat belt on was not issued with penalty points after the offence.

It also alleges that a judge and their spouse had four speeding tickets quashed between them.

Death and Taxes · 30-12-2012 08:10PM

Boombastic wrote: »

I wonder were all these people, who just happen to be related to the Gardai involved, speeding to hospital with sick children aswell?

Garda 'quashed points for 10 relatives'

A serving garda officer quashed penalty points for 10 members of his own family, according to a dossier compiled by a whistleblower that is currently being investigated by the Garda Commissioner.

The document also alleges that a garda inspector in Dublin quashed six tickets for one family outside his jurisdiction without consulting the garda who issued the penalty points.

Further claims show that a motorist caught driving at 220kmh in a 120kmh zone with no seat belt on was not issued with penalty points after the offence.

It also alleges that a judge and their spouse had four speeding tickets quashed between them.

Nothing new in that, sadly it will be covered up by the commish and the minister, throughly disgraceful though!

kerry4sam · 30-12-2012 09:02PM

From this article, I find the following to be suspect:

The two whistleblowers who reported their claims to the authorities have been formally censured by the Garda Commissioner and are barred from using the Garda Pulse system.

Jeez, what is next for these members?! I find this damaging for An Garda Síochána and can't help but wonder what the next revelation will be and that this is just the tip of the ice-berg.

Garda wiped driving slate for two judges and RTE presenter

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