Garda wiped driving slate for two judges and RTE presenter

Death and Taxes · 20-12-2012 03:30PM

Latest update on this:
http://www.rte.ie/news/2012/1220/penalty-points.html

The deputies published 20 examples of cancelled penalty points which underpin their call for an independent inquiry.
No names or locations are given in the examples, but they include a superintendent terminating tickets for the wives of other gardaí.
Other examples include a driver who previously had speeding tickets quashed, a motorist who had tickets for no tax, speeding and using a mobile phone all quashed by the same garda and a number of motorists involved in serious or fatal accidents having speeding tickets terminated in the weeks or months after those incidents.

I'm sure they were all rushing critically ill children to hospital...yeah!

Glad no names were published.

seamus · 20-12-2012 03:44PM

Bit ridiculous of them to say the internal inquiry is not enough when the inquiry hasn't even finished.

Of course, they are free to present their case to the Garda Ombudsman in advance of that, which is what they should do.

I'd have no confidence in any Dail-appointed independent inquiry to make proper findings in a reasonable amount of time.

Death and Taxes · 21-12-2012 10:06AM

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/ireland/2012/1221/1224328083774.html

Philantropic Benevolence!!!!

MagicSean · 21-12-2012 10:57AM

Glad they decided not to abuse parliamentary proviledge and deal with cases based on the individual facts and not simply the status of the person involved. Much fairer way to bring the issue to light.

Death and Taxes · 21-12-2012 11:08AM

MagicSean wrote: »

Glad they decided not to abuse parliamentary proviledge and deal with cases based on the individual facts and not simply the status of the person involved. Much fairer way to bring the issue to light.

Agreed.
Parlimentary Privlidge should only ever be the absolute last resort.

jonsnow · 21-12-2012 11:34AM

I heard Clare Daly explaining the situation on the last word yesterday and I believe she explained it quite well and that the whole thing makes much more sense in context.

Basically alleged discrepancies in relation to quashing penalty points in general terms was brought to the attention of the Garda Commissioner and Shatter last January.They were provided with an identical dossier to the one that the 4 TDs were discussing yesterday some time during the summer I believe by the TDs.

The TDs then went public in the last few weeks when no action whatsoever was taken by the Gardai or the Dept of Justice.The 195 or so cases number that was being bandied about was based on a sample of cases where the same person had penalty points quashed 3 or more times but the Gardai PR machine began spinning this number as if it was all the cases which involved questionable terminations. Daly reiterated that there are thousands of seriously suspect cases where the points were quashed not just the 195.Which makes sense if you think about it because what whistleblower is going to risk there careerm or go to the effort of trawling through hundreds of thousands of cases for a poxy 195 suspect cases.943 have been identified by the whistleblower as being quashed for offduty garda or members of their families alone.

The context was also explained by Daly. Basically only senior gardai can exercise the termination option. This means that this scandal primarily will affect senior gardai as they are the only ones with the authority to terminate penalty points and as such this scandal if independently investigated could prove quite embarrassing for the upper echelons of the force.Huge discrepancies have arisen in how the discretion to terminate points was exercised. One inspector never utilised this function over a long period of time while another Inspector utilised the function a 1000 times.

Daly basically has no confidence at this stage in an internal Garda enquiry given the inaction and spin that has characterised the Garda response thus far.She also believe that having a senior garda investigating other senior gardai is not best practice.

She stated that Shatters current response is to wait for the internal enquiry and not prejudice it (still waiting for CAB to report back about the Mahon and Moriarty tribunals - any day now I,d say) and if hes not happy with that possibly get the Garda Inspectorate to have a look.I believe that the Inspectorate can only make recommendations so that is hardly an adequate response.

I have never have much time for Daly and I believe having Mick Wallace involved is deeply damaging to this campaign as he is in no position morally to query anyone about anything. But I believe that Daly spoke well and that her position when explained made much more sense and seemed reasonable.No doubt nothing will come of all this though except a few headlines and internet threads. But the garda culture in relation to penalty points will probably remain fundamentally unchanged although they will be more careful in the phraseology used ie. less use of "philanthropic benevolence" or "offender genuinely mistook the limits" as excuses.

MagicSean · 21-12-2012 11:44AM

Clare Dalys apparent misunderstanding of the issue is also a problem for them. If the words you used are the words she did then she still doesn't seem to understand the actual mechanisms involved. Also, the original tactic of targeting people based solely on their profession and naming them as being corrupt was also a big mistake, and I doubt the backlash of that has fully been felt yet.

I disagree that the events so far will not change anything though. But that's just my own opinion.

Death and Taxes · 21-12-2012 11:54AM

MagicSean wrote: »

Clare Dalys apparent misunderstanding of the issue is also a problem for them. If the words you used are the words she did then she still doesn't seem to understand the actual mechanisms involved. Also, the original tactic of targeting people based solely on their profession and naming them as being corrupt was also a big mistake, and I doubt the backlash of that has fully been felt yet.

I disagree that the events so far will not change anything though. But that's just my own opinion.

In fairness I don't believe she ever named them as being corrupt, have you a link to her doing so?
And in fact I think it was Joan Collins TD who did most of the naming.

jonsnow · 21-12-2012 11:55AM

Couple of questions Magicsean

1. Do you believe its appropriate for a senior garda to investigate alleged misbehavior by other senior gardai even when we have other independent organisations established to police the Gardai as historically AGS has buried genuine misbehavior in the ranks. ie. a senior garda was tasked with looking into issues in the Donegal district and found no problems before Morris was established and found serious issues.

2.Do you oppose a public inquiry-if so why.If there is nothing to hide then whats the issue. This isn't bloody sunday it should be relatively easy to get to the bottom of.

3.If there are only a small number of inappropriate genuine dodgy terminations "wife of garda" etc then what action should be taken against the gardai involved

MagicSean · 21-12-2012 12:19PM

WileyCoyote wrote: »

In fairness I don't believe she ever named them as being corrupt, have you a link to her doing so?
And in fact I think it was Joan Collins TD who did most of the naming.

I was referring to the group as naming them. And while they may not have used the phrase they are corrupt, their assertion was that they were involved in corruption.

jonsnow wrote: »

Couple of questions Magicsean

1. Do you believe its appropriate for a senior garda to investigate alleged misbehavior by other senior gardai even when we have other independent organisations established to police the Gardai as historically AGS has buried genuine misbehavior in the ranks. ie. a senior garda was tasked with looking into issues in the Donegal district and found no problems before Morris was established and found serious issues.

2.Do you oppose a public inquiry-if so why.If there is nothing to hide then whats the issue. This isn't bloody sunday it should be relatively easy to get to the bottom of.

3.If there are only a small number of inappropriate genuine dodgy terminations "wife of garda" etc then what action should be taken against the gardai involved

1. If it is a high ranking officer investigating members of Inspector and Superintendent rank I see no problem with it. The organisation should be able to keep itself in order. If the investigation is found to be lacking at all I'm sure it will be followed up, if not by the minister then by the opposition.

2. Depends on what you mean by a public enquiry. I think people who have done no wrong deserve their privacy.

3. Depends on the individual circumstances. I'm sure disciplnary proceeding will be brought before anyone who has been found to be abusing their position.

Death and Taxes · 21-12-2012 12:58PM

http://www.breakingnews.ie/ireland/ex-detective-admits-culture-of-quashing-traffic-offences-578614.html

A former garda detective inspector has said there was a culture of "squaring", or quashing, minor road traffic offences by gardaí when he was in the force - and it ran from the top down.

jonsnow · 21-12-2012 05:15PM

MagicSean wrote: »

1. If it is a high ranking officer investigating members of Inspector and Superintendent rank I see no problem with it.

Really.In a situation where allegations have arisen because of gardai doing favours for one another you have no problem when a high ranking garda investigates other high ranking gardai.

MagicSean wrote: »

The organisation should be able to keep itself in order.

Ludicrous and laughable assertion as realistically it isn't capable of doing that is it. Donegal is what happens when you trust the Garda Siochana to keep itself in order.Why else did the government have to set up the Ombudsman and the Inspectorate in the first place.Do you believe that these bodies are unnecessary?

MagicSean wrote: »

If the investigation is found to be lacking at all I'm sure it will be followed up, if not by the minister then by the opposition.

The Minister clearly doesn't want to take any action as can be seen by the fact that he first did nothing, then ordered a secretive internal garda inquiry even though historically these have proved useless and an exercise in stonewalling and stalling and then said that maybe he would refer it to the Inspectorate which has no real teeth not the ombudsman which does.The opposition cant do anything obviously except highlight the issue as they have no authority to do anything.

MagicSean wrote: »

2. Depends on what you mean by a public enquiry. I think people who have done no wrong deserve their privacy.

By that standard there should never be an enquiry into anything ever by a government because people deserve their privacy.People are often accused of offences they didn't commit and have to go through the ordeal of a public trial before being proved innocent.Its part of the price we pay for our democracy I'm afraid.I,m sure if there are valid reasons any enquiry could deal with portions of the enquiry in camera.

MagicSean wrote: »

3. Depends on the individual circumstances. I'm sure disciplnary proceeding will be brought before anyone who has been found to be abusing their position..

I dont think the gardai have ever disciplined any officer on the recommendation of the Garda Inspectorate and in fact have promoted officers shortly after such recommendations.I,m sure the only disciplinary proceedings that will ever arise out of this matter if the gardai are left handle it is to the whistleblowers if their identitys are ever uncovered

You've also stated that Clare Daly(preumably briefed by the whistleblowers who as gardai understand the system as well as yourself and probably better if they have gone to all this risk and effort) and others just simply don't understand the processes at play.Even though I have seen TDs, a Senior Counsel, an Irish Times Editorial and a number of serious and highly respected journalists all say that there appears to be a genuine scandal here that warrants a proper investigation by the ombudsman you believe that there is no scandal. If that's the case why not just let the ombudsman at it and put the whole thing to bed.

kerry4sam · 23-12-2012 09:36AM

jonsnow wrote: »

Really.In a situation where allegations have arisen because of gardai doing favours for one another you have no problem when a high ranking garda investigates other high ranking gardai.

Ludicrous and laughable assertion as realistically it isn't capable of doing that is it. Donegal is what happens when you trust the Garda Siochana to keep itself in order.Why else did the government have to set up the Ombudsman and the Inspectorate in the first place.Do you believe that these bodies are unnecessary?

The Minister clearly doesn't want to take any action as can be seen by the fact that he first did nothing, then ordered a secretive internal garda inquiry even though historically these have proved useless and an exercise in stonewalling and stalling and then said that maybe he would refer it to the Inspectorate which has no real teeth not the ombudsman which does.The opposition cant do anything obviously except highlight the issue as they have no authority to do anything.

By that standard there should never be an enquiry into anything ever by a government because people deserve their privacy.People are often accused of offences they didn't commit and have to go through the ordeal of a public trial before being proved innocent.Its part of the price we pay for our democracy I'm afraid.I,m sure if there are valid reasons any enquiry could deal with portions of the enquiry in camera.

I dont think the gardai have ever disciplined any officer on the recommendation of the Garda Inspectorate and in fact have promoted officers shortly after such recommendations.I,m sure the only disciplinary proceedings that will ever arise out of this matter if the gardai are left handle it is to the whistleblowers if their identitys are ever uncovered

You've also stated that Clare Daly(preumably briefed by the whistleblowers who as gardai understand the system as well as yourself and probably better if they have gone to all this risk and effort) and others just simply don't understand the processes at play.Even though I have seen TDs, a Senior Counsel, an Irish Times Editorial and a number of serious and highly respected journalists all say that there appears to be a genuine scandal here that warrants a proper investigation by the ombudsman you believe that there is no scandal. If that's the case why not just let the ombudsman at it and put the whole thing to bed.

This won't be going anywhere if this article in todays Sunday Indenpendent is anything to go by.

THE whistleblower at the centre of the quashed penalty points controversy has compiled a 350-page dossier alleging a litany of more serious offences that he believes have gone unpunished due to garda malpractice.

The damning report, seen by the Sunday Independent, claims that hundreds of crimes – including sexual assaults, drug charges, public order offences and breaches of the intoxicating liquor act – have not been properly investigated by gardai.

The whistleblower behind the allegations made hundreds of complaints about garda malpractice to the Garda Commissioner's office between 2008 and 2010 when he was serving in the division in question.

He reported the various incidents to the garda's confidential recipient and to the human resources department in garda headquarters

however (and I find this very interesting)

The commissioner's office is believed to have investigated the allegations and reported no evidence of wrongdoing.

Definitely something not adding up, but the huge question imo here is: How come their is no correlation with what this whistle-blower is saying regards the crimes not being properly investigated and the Commissioners office reporting no evidence of wrong-doing. I find that discrepency very interesting, unless their is more when it states 'The commissioner's office is believed to have investigated' - did they or didn't they investigate?!

Death and Taxes · 23-12-2012 09:51AM

kerry4sam wrote: »

This won't be going anywhere if this article in todays Sunday Indenpendent is anything to go by.

however (and I find this very interesting)

Definitely something not adding up, but the huge question imo here is: How come their is no correlation with what this whistle-blower is saying regards the crimes not being properly investigated and the Commissioners office reporting no evidence of wrong-doing. I find that discrepency very interesting, unless their is more when it states 'The commissioner's office is believed to have investigated' - did they or didn't they investigate?!

Bear in mind that similar happened in Donegal, the commissioner sent a high ranking officer to investigate and he came back and said all was fine! In the end it took a Tribunal of Inquiry to get the truth.

Muckie · 23-12-2012 10:03AM

I hope it doesnt go like other tribunals in this country.

The truth is dragged out, slowly and painfully.

The perpetrators are allowed to "retire" taking their fine pensions with them.

Then it would seem the only problem is when you get caught.

Until then i wil duck, dive fiddle and scheme my way out.

niallo27 · 23-12-2012 10:11AM

Will this inquiry not ruin it for the normal joe soap who knows a guard and can get you off with the small offences in life.

baalthor · 23-12-2012 10:40AM

niallo27 wrote: »

Will this inquiry not ruin it for the normal joe soap who knows a guard and can get you off with the small offences in life.

What about all the normal Joe soaps (ie the majority of the population) who don't "know a guard" ?

niallo27 · 23-12-2012 10:41AM

baalthor wrote: »

What about all the normal Joe soaps (ie the majority of the population) who don't "know a guard" ?

Sure we all know someone in some industry that will do us a favour, why is it so shocking that guards do it.

kerry4sam · 23-12-2012 11:04AM

niallo27 wrote: »

Will this inquiry not ruin it for the normal joe soap who knows a guard and can get you off with the small offences in life.

Where should people draw the line? Would everyone even have the same definition of 'small offences' or would that fall under 'discretion' for you niallo27?

Death and Taxes · 23-12-2012 11:14AM

niallo27 wrote: »

Will this inquiry not ruin it for the normal joe soap who knows a guard and can get you off with the small offences in life.

Hopefully yes.

Death and Taxes · 23-12-2012 11:16AM

niallo27 wrote: »

Sure we all know someone in some industry that will do us a favour, why is it so shocking that guards do it.

I dont condider perverting the course of justice to be a favour that should be granted to anyone.
Can I take from your posts you are a small time crim?

niallo27 · 23-12-2012 11:18AM

kerry4sam wrote: »

Where should people draw the line? Would everyone even have the same definition of 'small offences' or would that fall under 'discretion' for you niallo27?

Its a tough one to call but i dont know why people are so outraged by this though, its been happening for years, im not taking about assault here or anything, im talking about minor traffic offences

Iwannahurl · 23-12-2012 11:22AM

niallo27 wrote: »

Will this inquiry not ruin it for the normal joe soap who knows a guard and can get you off with the small offences in life.

I'm not sure whether that comment is tongue-in-cheek.

However, if the current situation is that knowing a Garda can "get you off with small offences" then does that system not ruin it for the people who don't know a Garda and who can't or won't avail of such personal connections?

By the way, are you saying that's the way it works currently? Any examples you know of?

kerry4sam · 23-12-2012 11:27AM

niallo27 wrote: »

Will this inquiry not ruin it for the normal joe soap who knows a guard and can get you off with the small offences in life.

kerry4sam wrote: »

Where should people draw the line? Would everyone even have the same definition of 'small offences' or would that fall under 'discretion' for you niallo27?

niallo27 wrote: »

Its a tough one to call but i dont know why people are so outraged by this though, its been happening for years, im not taking about assault here or anything, im talking about minor traffic offences

This inquiry might also highlight and bring justice to what the report is saying in that

The damning report, seen by the Sunday Independent, claims that hundreds of crimes – including sexual assaults, drug charges, public order offences and breaches of the intoxicating liquor act – have not been properly investigated by gardai.

That's more than just 'minor traffic offences'. So that inquiry should be a positive then, should it not?

mattser · 23-12-2012 11:38AM

kerry4sam wrote: »

This inquiry might also highlight and bring justice to what the report is saying in that

That's more than just 'minor traffic offences'. So that inquiry should be a positive then, should it not?

Paper, Ink, etc

niallo27 · 23-12-2012 12:14PM

WileyCoyote wrote: »

I dont condider perverting the course of justice to be a favour that should be granted to anyone.
Can I take from your posts you are a small time crim?

No im not, I'm a normal bloke who got a few speeding tickets and the odd no tax ticket.

niallo27 · 23-12-2012 12:16PM

kerry4sam wrote: »

This inquiry might also highlight and bring justice to what the report is saying in that

That's more than just 'minor traffic offences'. So that inquiry should be a positive then, should it not?

Well if sexual assaults are being ignored, then yes we have something very seriously wrong with our policing system and it needs to be fixed.

MagicSean · 23-12-2012 12:21PM

This "whistleblower" seems quite disgruntled. I've read the latest scandal. He's merely highlighting some incidents where prosecutional discretion has been used and lumping them in with others in pulse that look similar. It's like a PR campaign he's launching and he's relying on people with little understanding of the legal system to make a mountain out of it. At the end of the day if a Garda's discretion is reduced or removed the only people who will suffer are the regular joe soaps who make a simple mistake and might benefit from a simple caution. I think the relevent saying is "Be careful what you wish for".

Death and Taxes · 23-12-2012 03:51PM

When the discretion is being used as a perk of the job, and those who appear to benifit are celebs, Garda spouses and family members etc , then I say yes end it now!

Death and Taxes · 23-12-2012 03:54PM

MagicSean wrote: »

This "whistleblower" seems quite disgruntled. I've read the latest scandal. He's merely highlighting some incidents where prosecutional discretion has been used and lumping them in with others in pulse that look similar. It's like a PR campaign he's launching and he's relying on people with little understanding of the legal system to make a mountain out of it. At the end of the day if a Garda's discretion is reduced or removed the only people who will suffer are the regular joe soaps who make a simple mistake and might benefit from a simple caution. I think the relevent saying is "Be careful what you wish for".

That post is reminicent of what so many in the Gardai were saying for years when challenged about goings on in Donegal. They were dismissive and patronizing while covering huge abuses of power and criminal activity.

Garda wiped driving slate for two judges and RTE presenter

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