Begrudging/Looking down on those who do well for themselves.....

AudreyHepburn · 19-12-2012 11:49AM

Odysseus wrote: »

Fcuker, you nearly got me:D I was pressing the reply button with a sense of moral ourage when I seen that last bit.

Lol me too!

listermint · 19-12-2012 11:51AM

seamus wrote: »

You're presuming though that these people do nothing but sit behind a desk and do a job anyone can do and take a big pile of cash for it.

I'll give you an example. I know a family who live on a nice quiet upper class Dublin street. Ridiculously huge house. The father gets paid a stupid amount of money. I don't know how much, but they have two €80k cars on top of his 1970's Porsche.
They're the kind of family who have 3 Xmas trees in the house and pay a company to come in and decorate the house for them at Xmas time. That scale of wealth.

What does he do? He buys and sells bank debt. The simplest definition of his job is that he takes potential investors/banks out for an expensive meal and a ****load of wine and convinces them to buy or sell millions of euros of debt, and his company take a cut off the top.
That's money for old rope, right? Anyone with a bit of charm can do it.

Here's the kicker: The guy spends Monday to Friday, every week, living in one of 4 other countries, getting up to start work at 7am and finishing whenever he's done wining and dining potential clients/investors. He has 3 children and a wife who see him for less than 48 hours at the weekend, 50 weeks of the year.

I'll happily stick with my two-bed negative equity mortgage and average salary thanks, if that's the cost of earning a lot of money.

In reality it is. Nobody who earns a big salary works 9-5 Monday to Friday. It's always stupid hours and detrimental to family life. Family > everything.

I'm not saying that politicians (for example), necessarily deserve the amounts that they get, but it's a fallacy to think that people on €100k+ jobs have an easy ride and just live the high life 24/7 while everyone else toils.

Once again i dont think anyone would see anything wrong with it. Your dressing up a perfect situation there.

But the problem is when mr upper class dublin there chummy with some bankers takes out a 50 Million euro loan to buy property and then skips the country defaulting on the debt with 1 million sitting in his bank to live out his life.

As has happened countless times in the last 4 years.

So why dont you address this than dressing up lovely pictures of hard working people with the sun shining out of their hole ?

Everyone has the right to earn money and work hard and i respect that. Its when the same pr**ks leave me in the lurch and my tax money goes to fix their lifestyle choices.

AudreyHepburn · 19-12-2012 11:52AM

Confab wrote: »

OP, you said that your dad feels bad about doing well. That's a reflection of himself, not others. I feel good for doing comparatively well.

True of course.

But perhaps if there wasn't such negativity towards those who are able to earn enough to keep themselves and enjoy themselves in this country he wouldn't feel the need to think like that.

There's two sides to this.

seamus · 19-12-2012 11:52AM

So why dont you address this than dressing up lovely pictures of hard working people with the sun shining out of their hole ?

Everyone has the right to earn money and work hard and i respect that. Its when the same pr**ks leave me in the lurch and my tax money goes to fix their lifestyle choices.

Is it any different to the multitudes of people who took out €300k mortgages and have skipped the country leaving us to pay their debt?

WoollyRedHat · 19-12-2012 11:55AM

The truth of the matter is, that your dads other, that is his alter ego, which lies repressed, the doppleganger that must be destroyed, to quote Freud, is the true begrudger.
Your father needs a good talking to himself.

listermint · 19-12-2012 12:00PM

seamus wrote: »

Is it any different to the multitudes of people who took out €300k mortgages and have skipped the country leaving us to pay their debt?

?? Its not the same itd be interested to see how many of these people 'skipped the country'

for one they wouldnt have the cash for a plane ticket and secondly they would have had to hand over the keys to their home that maybe lost 30% the value of the investment

Where as the other lads jumped the country with cash had an expensive lawyer to sort out their mess.

Case of the have's and the have nots isnt it. And you dressing it up as anything else is gas.

token101 · 19-12-2012 12:03PM

seamus wrote: »

Every day there's at least one post talking about the "wealthy elite" and their moral obligation to pay 95% tax just because they earn more money.

Is there? 95%? I haven't heard that before in Ireland. I wouldn't pay 95% tax if I was a millionaire. Don't see why I should really. Particularly not when you see some of the tax is so badly used, not a hope. I'd hand back in my Irish passport if I was in a similar situation to Depardieu.

Ush1 · 19-12-2012 12:06PM

'People of Norwich are warmer of heart than their London counterparts, with their negative equity and their stab wounds.'- Alan Partridge

Fratton Fred · 19-12-2012 12:09PM

A bloke driving a big jeep isn't a sign of wealth, it's a sign of a man with a small penis!

seamus · 19-12-2012 12:10PM

listermint wrote: »

Where as the other lads jumped the country with cash had an expensive lawyer to sort out their mess.

Case of the have's and the have nots isnt it. And you dressing it up as anything else is gas.

You're the one who's dressing it up like every wealthy person has run off and dumped a shedload of debt on the Irish people. A handful of scumbags have done this. The majority of exceptionally wealthy people haven't.

LivelineDipso · 19-12-2012 12:13PM

BraziliaNZ wrote: »

I keep being told that we look down upon successful people in Ireland, but I don't, and I've never met anyone who does. Seems to be threads every day about that made up B word mentioned in the OP. Does anyone actually carry on like this?

I am a sucessful person and the begrugery in Ireland is not too bad. In England it is much worse.

Chuck Stone · 19-12-2012 12:18PM

seamus wrote: »

Is it any different to the multitudes of people who took out €300k mortgages and have skipped the country leaving us to pay their debt?

Exactly the same...

No wait... the financial person is supposed to be the expert service provider and the debt exile is the consumer who trusted the 'expert'.

One can walk away from corporate catastrophes a rich man protected by limited liability and other statutory instruments and the other will have the debt hanging over him for the rest of his life.

So yes, if we're working with these caricatures their levels of responsibility and levels of being made to pay for it are indeed diametrically different.

listermint · 19-12-2012 12:23PM

seamus wrote: »

You're the one who's dressing it up like every wealthy person has run off and dumped a shedload of debt on the Irish people. A handful of scumbags have done this. The majority of exceptionally wealthy people haven't.

Hold your horses there.

Where ONCE did i dress it up tat every wealthy person has run off and dumped a shedload of debt on irish people ?

I explained in all of my posts what constitutes scumbags (fraud)

I also explained that everyone has the right to work hard and get their just rewards (in every post).

It would appear Seamus you have your own self loathing issues with the decent money you earn if you manage to construe that from my posts.

I make good money im happy and i dont feel sorry for working hard.

What i do feel pissed off about is you apologising for frausters.

Gas man.

Now go back an re-read my posts and discuss accordingly.

seamus · 19-12-2012 12:24PM

"Charicatures", I'm glad we're using this word.

First the discussion was about wealthy people and whether they "deserved" their wages.

Then it turned into how wealthy people all took out €50m mortgages and then skipped the country with a big bank balance.

Now suddenly all wealthy people are financial experts who presided over corporate catastrophes.

Again, a small number of people fncked up and caused the financial crisis. Someone being wealthy doesn't logically follow that they must be a suit in an office stepping on the little guy.

Edit: Actually to be fair, it was me who threw out the "wealthy elite" phrase, so I suppose I shouldn't be surprised when a few people latch onto it

listermint · 19-12-2012 12:28PM

seamus wrote: »

"Charicatures", I'm glad we're using this word.

First the discussion was about wealthy people and whether they "deserved" their wages.

Then it turned into how wealthy people all took out €50m mortgages and then skipped the country with a big bank balance.

Now suddenly all wealthy people are financial experts who presided over corporate catastrophes.

Again, a small number of people fncked up and caused the financial crisis. Someone being wealthy doesn't logically follow that they must be a suit in an office stepping on the little guy.

Once more, the discussion has been hijacked by the histrionics of a few people who can't stop banging on about the recession and the "wealthy elite".

Yes you.

Its not a them and us Seamus, but apologising for fraud in any of its forms is not right.

You made the connection between people making large somes of money and begrudgery. It was you how started that no other posters.

slightly perplexed here.

I made the connection that NO, the general public have no issue with someone earning good money. but HOW FRAUD HAS BEEN DEALT with in the last 4 years has coloured perception.

dizzywizlw · 19-12-2012 12:31PM

The 'small number' presupposes that the people working for Anglo making 100k+ of wihch I'm sure there were quite a few didn't play their role in the crash.

In fact, estate agents, local politicians, mortgage lenders, and providers of credit and not to mention the builders.

That's at least quadruple digit conspiracy.

Of course it's actually the fault of the electorate but whatever...

Cienciano · 19-12-2012 12:32PM

BraziliaNZ wrote: »

I keep being told that we look down upon successful people in Ireland, but I don't, and I've never met anyone who does. Seems to be threads every day about that made up B word mentioned in the OP. Does anyone actually carry on like this?

I agree with you there BraziliaNZ.
The story goes that if someone pulls up to a hotel in a ferrari in america everyone thinks he's a great lad, the same happens in ireland everyone thinks he's a bollocks. But in reality they don't! They're far too interested in the car, they couldn't care less who got out of it from my experience.

The only rich people that "normal" people hate, are arseholes, or people who got rich some dodgy way, say Bertie Ahern collecting a massive pension and getting €30k for giving a talk in Nigeria.
Another good example was Gerry Ryan when he was alive. He used to think people hated him because he was rich. No, people hated him because he was an arsehole. A deluded arsehole too! Ryan Tuberty is the same. He thinks people like to knock him cos he's successful. No, people do it because he comes across as a smug knobend who is terrible at his job.
Why does no one hate JP McManus? Because he seems like a decent guy, that's why. No one hated Sean Quinn till his court case and collapse of his empire.
I don't think Irish people are begrugers at all, but we're just not afraid to call someone a prick when they become rich. Being successful doesn't turn a dickhead into someone we should all fawn over.

listermint · 19-12-2012 12:33PM

Cienciano wrote: »

I agree with you there BraziliaNZ.
The story goes that if someone pulls up to a hotel in a ferrari in america everyone thinks he's a great lad, the same happens in ireland everyone thinks he's a bollocks. But in reality they don't! They're far too interested in the car, they couldn't care less who got out of it from my experience.

The only rich people that "normal" people hate, are arseholes, or people who got rich some dodgy way, say Bertie Ahern collecting a massive pension and getting €30k for giving a talk in Nigeria.
Another good example was Gerry Ryan when he was alive. He used to think people hated him because he was rich. No, people hated him because he was an arsehole. A deluded arsehole too! Ryan Tuberty is the same. He thinks people like to knock him cos he's successful. No, people do it because he comes across as a smug knobend who is terrible at his job.
Why does no one hate JP McManus? Because he seems like a decent guy, that's why. No one hated Sean Quinn till his court case and collapse of his empire.
I don't think Irish people are begrugers at all, but we're just not afraid to call someone a prick when they become rich. Being successful doesn't turn a dickhead into someone we should all fawn over.

Entirely agree.

But this conflicts with Seamus's self loathing.

seamus · 19-12-2012 12:37PM

listermint wrote: »

You made the connection between people making large somes of money and begrudgery. It was you how started that no other posters.

Yeah, I spotted that

In my defence though, I was responding to the OP's remark that they never saw an example of begrudgery. It wasn't me who started bleating on about bankers and the recession.

I made the connection that NO, the general public have no issue with someone earning good money. but HOW FRAUD HAS BEEN DEALT with in the last 4 years has coloured perception.

But that's got nothing to do with the begrudgery we're discussing.
The general public do have an issue with someone earning money, until they learn how it's earned. Until shown otherwise, the public assume that anyone on €100k+ must be some wanker in a suit who plays golf 3 afternoons a week and feasts on the souls of the ordinary worker on the weekends.

listermint wrote: »

But this conflicts with Seamus's self loathing.

I wish I earned enough to conform to your pop psychoanalysis.

listermint · 19-12-2012 12:38PM

seamus wrote: »

Yeah, I spotted that
In my defence though, I was responding to the OP's remark that they never saw an example of begrudgery. It wasn't me who started bleating on about bankers and the recession.
But that's got nothing to do with the begrudgery we're discussing.
The general public do have an issue with someone earning money, until they learn how it's earned. Until shown otherwise, the public assume that anyone on €100k+ must be some wanker in a suit who plays golf 3 afternoons a week and feasts on the souls of the ordinary worker on the weekends.
I wish I earned enough to conform to your pop psychoanalysis.

See this is where we disagree. I dont think thats the case.

Buford Tannen · 19-12-2012 12:59PM

AudreyHepburn wrote: »

I was quite surprised he admitted to me that he feels guilty when arrives at a customer's home in his 12' jeep and then charges the prices he has to charge. He doesn't set the prices himself, it's the manufacturers and the car is one he bought himself after years of driving around in a much older too small one that his tools would barely fit in. And as he uses it for work it more than pays for itself.

In fairness a 12 foot jeep is very small

Chuck Stone · 19-12-2012 01:05PM

Buford Tannen wrote: »

In fairness a 12 foot jeep is very small

She meant 12 feet tall.

Here's a pic.

BraziliaNZ · 19-12-2012 01:05PM

Cienciano wrote: »

I agree with you there BraziliaNZ.
The story goes that if someone pulls up to a hotel in a ferrari in america everyone thinks he's a great lad, the same happens in ireland everyone thinks he's a bollocks. But in reality they don't! They're far too interested in the car, they couldn't care less who got out of it from my experience.

The only rich people that "normal" people hate, are arseholes, or people who got rich some dodgy way, say Bertie Ahern collecting a massive pension and getting €30k for giving a talk in Nigeria.
Another good example was Gerry Ryan when he was alive. He used to think people hated him because he was rich. No, people hated him because he was an arsehole. A deluded arsehole too! Ryan Tuberty is the same. He thinks people like to knock him cos he's successful. No, people do it because he comes across as a smug knobend who is terrible at his job.
Why does no one hate JP McManus? Because he seems like a decent guy, that's why. No one hated Sean Quinn till his court case and collapse of his empire.
I don't think Irish people are begrugers at all, but we're just not afraid to call someone a prick when they become rich. Being successful doesn't turn a dickhead into someone we should all fawn over.

Yes good post. Bono, Gerry Ryan, Tubridy, are 3 of the most f**king loathsome people we've ever produced, I couldn't care less how much money they have. We seem to embrace our actors, writers etc, who have been successful and are rich, I'm thinking Maeve Binchy and Colin Farrell etc, but it's because they come across as nice people and not utter twats from Montrose.

Madam_X · 19-12-2012 01:22PM

I ensure to do a little curtsey for my betters so as not to be seen as a begrudger - the worse thing one can be; worse than a murderer.

mikom · 19-12-2012 01:27PM

AudreyHepburn wrote: »

I was chatting to my father recently about the recession and his job and how well he is doing for himself consider he is self employed and depends on consumers seeking him out for work. He is a service agent for shower and pump manufacters.

I was quite surprised he admitted to me that he feels guilty when arrives at a customer's home in his 12' jeep and then charges the prices he has to charge. He doesn't set the prices himself, it's the manufacturers and the car is one he bought himself after years of driving around in a much older too small one that his tools would barely fit in. And as he uses it for work it more than pays for itself.

It surprised and upset me that my father, an honest hardworking man who has worked non-stop all his life to provided for us should be made to feel guilty about buying this one thing for himself?

I have always said that this ression really brings the worst out in us all and it angers me that those who are working hard and earning enough to still be able to enjoy ourselves and have nice things should be made feel guilty for it.

I do fully understand that if you are struggling it can be a bit jarring to see some-one else being able to provide for their family and have a little extra for themselves but I still think it's a bit selfish to begrudge some-one like my father the right to spend his hard earned (and it is genuinely hard earned) cash.

Or am I just being unreasonable?

His guilt is not someone elses begrudgery.
Tell him not to overthink things too much

steddyeddy · 19-12-2012 01:38PM

seamus wrote: »

Every day there's at least one post talking about the "wealthy elite" and their moral obligation to pay 95% tax just because they earn more money.

That's an example of it. "Fairness" in Irish terms is that "nobody should ever be better off than someone else", rather than the more usual, "Everyone is entitled to be treated equally".

I think you'll find the sentiment is that people with wealth should take more of a hit in asuterity measures than people who haven't got it. That's not begrudging the wealthy, that's basic humanity.

19-12-2012 02:12PM

I think we all hate people who get rich through dodgy dealings but that's not really what this thread is about, is it? Plenty of people have actually earned what they have.

seamus wrote: »

You're presuming though that these people do nothing but sit behind a desk and do a job anyone can do and take a big pile of cash for it.

I'll give you an example. I know a family who live on a nice quiet upper class Dublin street. Ridiculously huge house. The father gets paid a stupid amount of money. I don't know how much, but they have two €80k cars on top of his 1970's Porsche.
They're the kind of family who have 3 Xmas trees in the house and pay a company to come in and decorate the house for them at Xmas time. That scale of wealth.

What does he do? He buys and sells bank debt. The simplest definition of his job is that he takes potential investors/banks out for an expensive meal and a ****load of wine and convinces them to buy or sell millions of euros of debt, and his company take a cut off the top.
That's money for old rope, right? Anyone with a bit of charm can do it.

Here's the kicker: The guy spends Monday to Friday, every week, living in one of 4 other countries, getting up to start work at 7am and finishing whenever he's done wining and dining potential clients/investors. He has 3 children and a wife who see him for less than 48 hours at the weekend, 50 weeks of the year.

I'll happily stick with my two-bed negative equity mortgage and average salary thanks, if that's the cost of earning a lot of money.

In reality it is. Nobody who earns a big salary works 9-5 Monday to Friday. It's always stupid hours and detrimental to family life. Family > everything.

I'm not saying that politicians (for example), necessarily deserve the amounts that they get, but it's a fallacy to think that people on €100k+ jobs have an easy ride and just live the high life 24/7 while everyone else toils.

Exactly. People love to moan about 'rich people' as if they pick money off trees. Most of the wealthy people I know work their asses off. I used to work with a really annoying girl on reception a few years ago and she was the typical begrudger, 'isn't it well for Liam, going away to Florida?', 'isn't it well for Mary, being able to afford a Prada bag?' I pointed out that these people often worked 18 hour days in an extremely stressful job, never saw their families, held positions of responsibility and basically had no life outside work bar the week or two of annual leave. If she wanted all that, why didn't she apply for their jobs? You can't have it all. I'd love to be rich, but my health and free time are too important to me.

Richard Hillman · 19-12-2012 02:24PM

Something that I noticed during the US Presidential elections and even after it, is Obama talking about people "promoting" themselves into the middle classes. If somebody openly said that in Ireland they would be looked upon as some sort of snob. In Ireland there is some sort of predetermined idea that you are shunted into a class for life and a lot of people seem to be proud to be working class (nothing wrong with that) and would never dream of trying to further their social or economic standing.

I dont think there is anything wrong with wanting to not live in a council estate and be making enough money to have a swank car and send your kids to private school. In Ireland if you have come from a working class beginnings and aspire to better yourself, you are deemed to be some sort of snob.

If Richard Hillman Jr came along, i know that I would prefer if he was brought up in a nicer area (its not bad here) and didnt go to the same school i went to.

To be honest I would rather be called a snob than accept a predetermined idea that you can never better yourself.

steddyeddy · 19-12-2012 02:30PM

I dont think the irish thing is hating people from wealth rather hate to see social mobility. Ie people from poor backgrounds work hard to aquire wealth. I lived a good chunk of my life in America and I found the oppisite there. They apreciate someone who worked his way up from humble beginings rather than someone who had everything handed to him (inherited wealth ect). If anything there is more Irish people who look down on those who fell on hard times eg dole ect. In america they realise it's more of an achievment to come from humble backgrounds and work their way up to high positions than to go to the best of schools and get the best oppertunities in life and attain the same position.

Most everyone who works in finances works "balls to the wall" to earn a
living. The same goes for most other positions which are paid a large amount fo money. Op your dad has nothing to feel guilty about. Glad things worked out for him. I do feel there is more of an attitude towards those who find themselves in hard situations though.

steddyeddy · 19-12-2012 02:34PM

Richard Hillman wrote: »

Something that I noticed during the US Presidential elections and even after it, is Obama talking about people "promoting" themselves into the middle classes. If somebody openly said that in Ireland they would be looked upon as some sort of snob. In Ireland there is some sort of predetermined idea that you are shunted into a class for life and a lot of people seem to be proud to be working class (nothing wrong with that) and would never dream of trying to further their social or economic standing.

I dont think there is anything wrong with wanting to not live in a council estate and be making enough money to have a swank car and send your kids to private school. In Ireland if you have come from a working class beginnings and aspire to better yourself, you are deemed to be some sort of snob.

If Richard Hillman Jr came along, i know that I would prefer if he was brought up in a nicer area (its not bad here) and didnt go to the same school i went to.

To be honest I would rather be called a snob than accept a predetermined idea that you can never better yourself.

To be honest in my experience I have encountered that attitude more form people who were not from a working class background. Also I will add the caveat that you shouldn't confuse an inability to do well (disadvantaged beginnings, poor schools) with a lack of desire to do well. Dont assume because someone is poor "desire" played a part.

Begrudging/Looking down on those who do well for themselves.....

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