Begrudging/Looking down on those who do well for themselves.....

AudreyHepburn

I was chatting to my father recently about the recession and his job and how well he is doing for himself consider he is self employed and depends on consumers seeking him out for work. He is a service agent for shower and pump manufacters.

I was quite surprised he admitted to me that he feels guilty when arrives at a customer's home in his 12' jeep and then charges the prices he has to charge. He doesn't set the prices himself, it's the manufacturers and the car is one he bought himself after years of driving around in a much older too small one that his tools would barely fit in. And as he uses it for work it more than pays for itself.

It surprised and upset me that my father, an honest hardworking man who has worked non-stop all his life to provided for us should be made to feel guilty about buying this one thing for himself?

I have always said that this ression really brings the worst out in us all and it angers me that those who are working hard and earning enough to still be able to enjoy ourselves and have nice things should be made feel guilty for it.

I do fully understand that if you are struggling it can be a bit jarring to see some-one else being able to provide for their family and have a little extra for themselves but I still think it's a bit selfish to begrudge some-one like my father the right to spend his hard earned (and it is genuinely hard earned) cash.

Or am I just being unreasonable?

Odysseus

Of course your not be unreasonable.

BraziliaNZ

I keep being told that we look down upon successful people in Ireland, but I don't, and I've never met anyone who does. Seems to be threads every day about that made up B word mentioned in the OP. Does anyone actually carry on like this?

Wils110

If the tiger was still roaring people would have something to say about your dads new jeep just the Irish way tbh

Ush1

People have two types of reaction to seeings such things and one is far more common than the other.

One reaction is to begrudge, hate and be jealous of the person that has more than you.

The other, rarer reaction is the people that admire it and get motivated themselves to better their position.

JuliusCaesar

AudreyHepburn wrote: »

I was quite surprised he admitted to me that he feels guilty when arrives at a customer's home in his 12' jeep and then charges the prices he has to charge. He doesn't set the prices himself, it's the manufacturers and the car is one he bought himself after years of driving around in a much older too small one that his tools would barely fit in. And as he uses it for work it more than pays for itself.

It surprised and upset me that my father, an honest hardworking man who has worked non-stop all his life to provided for us should be made to feel guilty about buying this one thing for himself?

.....

I do fully understand that if you are struggling it can be a bit jarring to see some-one else being able to provide for their family and have a little extra for themselves but I still think it's a bit selfish to begrudge some-one like my father the right to spend his hard earned (and it is genuinely hard earned) cash.

Or am I just being unreasonable?

Yes. He's feeling guilty. Nobody -according to your post - is MAKING him feel guilty. He's making himself feel guilty.

Stop worrying about what other people might be thinking.

Fizman

AudreyHepburn wrote: »

I was quite surprised he admitted to me that he feels guilty when arrives at a customer's home in his 12' jeep and then charges the prices he has to charge. He doesn't set the prices himself, it's the manufacturers and the car is one he bought himself after years of driving around in a much older too small one that his tools would barely fit in. And as he uses it for work it more than pays for itself.

Ooooohhhhhhh.......no recession round here!

seamus

BraziliaNZ wrote: »

I keep being told that we look down upon successful people in Ireland, but I don't, and I've never met anyone who does. Seems to be threads every day about that made up B word mentioned in the OP. Does anyone actually carry on like this?

Every day there's at least one post talking about the "wealthy elite" and their moral obligation to pay 95% tax just because they earn more money.

That's an example of it. "Fairness" in Irish terms is that "nobody should ever be better off than someone else", rather than the more usual, "Everyone is entitled to be treated equally".

Rasheed

I think people have now more respect for people succeeding and still doing well.

As in the climate is so harsh, they must be genuinely working hard and fair play to them for it.

AudreyHepburn

JuliusCaesar wrote: »

Yes. He's feeling guilty. Nobody -according to your post - is MAKING him feel guilty. He's making himself feel guilty.

Stop worrying about what other people might be thinking.

Fair enough but he shouldn't have to feel that way.

Bedgrudgery might be the wrong phrase to use but I don't know what other way to put it.

Gone Drinking

I don't think this is people making your Dad feel guilty, its just a feeling your Dad has (its not a bad one either, he's modest).

My Dad is exactly the same. He's always told me if he had all the money in the world he wouldn't buy a brand new car, or something flashy, or a huge house. He said he'd feel embarrassed by it.

I wouldn't worry about it!

AudreyHepburn

Gone Drinking wrote: »

I don't think this is people making your Dad feel guilty, its just a feeling your Dad has (its not a bad one either, he's modest).

My Dad is exactly the same. He's always told me if he had all the money in the world he wouldn't buy a brand new car, or something flashy, or a huge house. He said he'd feel embarrassed by it.

I wouldn't worry about it!

I'm not worried about really, it just surprised me to hear him say it because he wouldn't be the type to care what anyone thinks of him.

I opened thread more as a general dicussion on the issue, using Dad as my starting point.

tunedout

There are many people going around now charging well over the odds for carpentry services and plumbing services etc and they are arriving in 12 jeeps and vans with the best of gear. with the budget crucyfying families and families struggling to support and keep up i can see where the begrudging comes from. maybe if the trades people put more effort into their pricing and thought twice about spending €50k on a mode of transportation then we wouldn't be in the bother we'r in.

listermint

seamus wrote: »

Every day there's at least one post talking about the "wealthy elite" and their moral obligation to pay 95% tax just because they earn more money.

That's an example of it. "Fairness" in Irish terms is that "nobody should ever be better off than someone else", rather than the more usual, "Everyone is entitled to be treated equally".

I think the issue is that, 'perception' or otherwise people are not treated equally here as has been demonstrated in the last 4 years by the white collar criminals jaunting off scott free to other countries leaving a wake of debt behind them whilst maintaining a extremely good lifestyle with no requirement for them to work for the rest of their lives to maintain it.

Your post looks like its confusing that sort of perception with one where people who earn over lets say 100K arent entitled to it, (which they are)

Bipolar Joe

JuliusCaesar wrote: »

Yes. He's feeling guilty. Nobody -according to your post - is MAKING him feel guilty. He's making himself feel guilty.

Stop worrying about what other people might be thinking.

Basically this.

seamus wrote: »

Every day there's at least one post talking about the "wealthy elite" and their moral obligation to pay 95% tax just because they earn more money.

That's an example of it. "Fairness" in Irish terms is that "nobody should ever be better off than someone else", rather than the more usual, "Everyone is entitled to be treated equally".

The difference here is this is a dude who goes out and does, what sounds like, pretty hard labour. The "Wealthy elite" go out dressed in an absurdly expensive suit, sit behind a desk and let everyone else do work while they figure out ways to screw money out of the first guy.

AudreyHepburn

tunedout wrote: »

There are many people going around now charging well over the odds for carpentry services and plumbing services etc and they are arriving in 12 jeeps and vans with the best of gear. with the budget crucyfying families and families struggling to support and keep up i can see where the begrudging comes from. maybe if the trades people put more effort into their pricing and thought twice about spending €50k on a mode of transportation then we wouldn't be in the bother we'r in.

And this is exactly what I'm talking about. This selfish, begrudging, 'you're not allowed do well because I'm suffering' attitude.

I've just told that in my Dad's case, and I'd wager most sevice people's cases' they don't set the prices, the manufacturers/suppliers do.

But in any case if a plumber/carpenter/fitter is doing well why should he/she not spend his/her hard earned money?

listermint

Bipolar Joe wrote: »

The "Wealthy elite" go out dressed in an absurdly expensive suit, sit behind a desk and let everyone else do work while they figure out ways to screw money out of the first guy.

I think a better definition of this would be what has happened with Comet in the UK which has been destroyed by some venture capitalist company.

These types of things are just leeches for destruction and should be entirely regulated.

seamus

Bipolar Joe wrote: »

The "Wealthy elite" go out dressed in an absurdly expensive suit, sit behind a desk and let everyone else do work while they figure out ways to screw money out of the first guy.

Sure they do.

Thank you for perfectly demonstrating what I mean. This fallacy that people who earn a lot of money clearly don't deserve it.

"If he's making money, he must be screwing somebody else over".

It's a throwback to old anti-British sentiments and it's thankfully leaving Irish society, but bloody hell it's tedious.

Gauss

I'm the opposite to these begrudgers, I pour scorn on those who can't match my wealth, I regard anyone without a nice mansion and Jag like my own as scum.

9959

Ush1 wrote: »

People have two types of reaction to seeings such things and one is far more common than the other.

One reaction is to begrudge, hate and be jealous of the person that has more than you.

The other, rarer reaction is the people that admire it and get motivated themselves to better their position.

I disagree.
There is another reaction to 'seeing such things' and it is one with which I share with a large number of people, let's just call it Atari Jaguar.

Bipolar Joe

seamus wrote: »

Sure they do.

Thank you for perfectly demonstrating what I mean. This fallacy that people who earn a lot of money clearly don't deserve it.

"If he's making money, he must be screwing somebody else over".

It's a throwback to old anti-British sentiments and it's thankfully leaving Irish society, but bloody hell it's tedious.

No, now you're twisting my post. The likes of various TDs, bankers, so on and so forth, the ones raking in cash to the detriment to the ones they're supposed to be supporting (I know banks are businesses, but it's not in their interest to help financially ruin a country) are who I'm talking about. Not Ma and Pa Furniture Fixer or whatever, who own a decent house I wouldn't mind having. See the difference, or are you going to run my post through the aggro-filter?

WoollyRedHat

Gauss wrote: »

I'm the opposite to these begrudgers, I pour scorn on those who can't match my wealth, I regard anyone without a nice mansion and Jag like my own as scum.

I pity you, I am scornful of those who don't have a fine french castle and private airplane.

ahnowbrowncow

Well I can only come to one conclusion after reading this, your dad just doesn't pay enough taxes. If someone can afford a 2012 vehicle they're not paying enough taxes. It's gone beyond ridiculous, people and their 2012 cars.
I'm not being serious.

dizzywizlw

Depends how you've done well doesn't it in real terms?

I tend to see people begrudging people working inf finance and the professions more.*




*Because they make outrageous amounts of money over and above what they deserve (which is still a lot).

listermint

seamus wrote: »

Sure they do.

Thank you for perfectly demonstrating what I mean. This fallacy that people who earn a lot of money clearly don't deserve it.

"If he's making money, he must be screwing somebody else over".

It's a throwback to old anti-British sentiments and it's thankfully leaving Irish society, but bloody hell it's tedious.

I dont think thats what the general public think. Ive already addressed what i feel is the general public perception in my other post.

I believe you are generalising on a generalisation.


There is a stark difference between creating wealth and fraud. And Fraud is what has been the problem in this country not wealth creation. Its getting tiresome at this stage.....

Begrudgery is something that permeates Irish society. People really can't stand to see others doing better than they are. The 'isn't it well for you?' attitude is absolutely everywhere.

seamus

Bipolar Joe wrote: »

The likes of various TDs, bankers, so on and so forth, the ones raking in cash to the detriment to the ones they're supposed to be supporting (I know banks are businesses, but it's not in their interest to help financially ruin a country) are who I'm talking about.

You're presuming though that these people do nothing but sit behind a desk and do a job anyone can do and take a big pile of cash for it.

I'll give you an example. I know a family who live on a nice quiet upper class Dublin street. Ridiculously huge house. The father gets paid a stupid amount of money. I don't know how much, but they have two €80k cars on top of his 1970's Porsche.
They're the kind of family who have 3 Xmas trees in the house and pay a company to come in and decorate the house for them at Xmas time. That scale of wealth.

What does he do? He buys and sells bank debt. The simplest definition of his job is that he takes potential investors/banks out for an expensive meal and a ****load of wine and convinces them to buy or sell millions of euros of debt, and his company take a cut off the top.
That's money for old rope, right? Anyone with a bit of charm can do it.

Here's the kicker: The guy spends Monday to Friday, every week, living in one of 4 other countries, getting up to start work at 7am and finishing whenever he's done wining and dining potential clients/investors. He has 3 children and a wife who see him for less than 48 hours at the weekend, 50 weeks of the year.

I'll happily stick with my two-bed negative equity mortgage and average salary thanks, if that's the cost of earning a lot of money.

In reality it is. Nobody who earns a big salary works 9-5 Monday to Friday. It's always stupid hours and detrimental to family life. Family > everything.

I'm not saying that politicians (for example), necessarily deserve the amounts that they get, but it's a fallacy to think that people on €100k+ jobs have an easy ride and just live the high life 24/7 while everyone else toils.

Odysseus

ahnowbrowncow wrote: »

I'm not being serious.

Fcuker, you nearly got me:D I was pressing the reply button with a sense of moral ourage when I seen that last bit.

Drumpot

I for one love going into small independent retailers and asking them how business is doing and getting a positive reply.

Do I begrudge successful people? Not at all. I do begrudge people that got rich on the backs of others and I think this is where there is alot of misplaced anger at successful people.

I begrudge politicians, councellors, bankers and specific people in the public service (previous financial regulator) who get to retire or continue to work for the state with Zero accounability for their actions if they have made significant mistakes. Zero financial repercussions , at worst getting a golden handshake.

I don't believe the average person begrudges a successful business person. I just think that sometimes people don't differentiate between people who they feel deserve success from people who don't deserve it.

Success is usually thought as somebody who is wealthy, I consider it a success being able to get up in the morning!

speedboatchase

I hate begrudgery but I, like most of us, have been guilty of it on occasion. My bugrudgery is usually limited to the inflated wages of some people in the public sector and I feel that can be valid distinction because it's not a wage that is decided by market forces. I'm happier with my wage since starting a new job, however, so much of my previous begrudgery was really just a reflection of my previous employer gripes.

Mr Benevolent

OP, you said that your dad feels bad about doing well. That's a reflection of himself, not others. I feel good for doing comparatively well.