Garda wiped driving slate for two judges and RTE presenter

MagicSean · 12-12-2012 12:38AM

expectationlost wrote: »

under what law specifically

what law, it has to be written down somewhere because shatter listed some specifics of the reasons wher eis getting that from?

what laws or combinations of law allow this

Common law is not written down. Don't know what Alan Shatter was referring to in his speech.

expectationlost · 12-12-2012 12:50AM

MagicSean wrote: »

Common law is not written down. Don't know what Alan Shatter was referring to in his speech.

okay find me a guide to common law where this discretion is written about

MagicSean · 12-12-2012 12:58AM

expectationlost wrote: »

okay find me a guide to common law where this discretion is written about

Do it yourself. Common law is based on decades of case law.

Going Forward · 12-12-2012 01:52AM

MickF wrote: »

As stated, the penalty point system is not operated by Gardai. A Garda Inspector or above can cancel a fixed charge notice which is what this whole debate is about. Penalty points are the end result of the whole process ie, following a court appearence and conviction. As already stated by another poster there are numerous reasons why a fixed charge notice might be cancelled. They are not cancelled as easily as you might be led to believe. The whole issue is pure sensationalism by the media. The facts have been mis -interpretted and I have no doubt there will be clarification down the road. t's a great diversion from the budget!!

"Penalty points are the end result of the whole process ie, following a court appearance and conviction."

That's a bit misleading isn't it?

One does not have to be convicted in court to receive points.

Damn mejia.

expectationlost · 12-12-2012 01:52AM

shatter said

Following the introduction of fixed charges An Garda Síochána established a policy and procedures on the termination / cancellation of fixed charge notices, set out in the Fixed Charge Processing System Full User Manual Policies and Procedures Third Edition 2005. In essence the policy and procedures provides authority to District Officers / Inspector Acting District Officer and the Inspector Fixed Charge Processing Office to cancel Fixed Charge Notices with the policy and procedures framed around legislative exemptions contained in road traffic legislation and Regulations, in conjunction with the specific guidelines issued by the Director of Public Prosecutions.Specific procedures are in place for the cancellation of these notices.

http://oireachtasdebates.oireachtas.ie/debates%20authoring/DebatesWebPack.nsf/takes/dail2012121100049?opendocument

i presume a TD should be able to get their hands on this "Fixed Charge Processing System Full User Manual Policies and Procedures Third Edition 2005" if not others, they should already have it actually.

Iwannahurl · 12-12-2012 01:06PM

MagicSean wrote: »

Also, just on the topic of Clare Daly and her righteous brothers and sisters throwing out peoples names under parliamentary priviledge. They have no idea for what reasons these people had their tickets cancelled. If they were so sure of their facts they would be naming them outside of the Dáil but they won't because they know they are leaving themselves open to defamation litigation if one of the people named has a reasonable excuse. A disgraceful abuse of the parliamentary priviledge as far as I'm concerned.

They wouldn't be the first to avail of a handy wee exemption from laws the rest of have to adhere to...

Death and Taxes · 12-12-2012 01:13PM

MagicSean wrote: »

Also, just on the topic of Clare Daly and her righteous brothers and sisters throwing out peoples names under parliamentary priviledge. They have no idea for what reasons these people had their tickets cancelled. If they were so sure of their facts they would be naming them outside of the Dáil but they won't because they know they are leaving themselves open to defamation litigation if one of the people named has a reasonable excuse. A disgraceful abuse of the parliamentary priviledge as far as I'm concerned.

Fair play to them , hopefully they will now name all the Gardaí involved under privelege as well so we can get all the facts that are being kept under wraps by the minister and the Commissioner.
Honest Gardaí deserve to have these guys/gals named.

seamus · 12-12-2012 01:17PM

WileyCoyote wrote: »

Fair play to them , hopefully they will now name all the Gardaí involved under privelege as well so we can get all the facts that are being kept under wraps by the minister and the Commissioner.
Honest Gardaí deserve to have these guys/gals named.

To hell with being innocent until proven guilty, let's just name everybody who might possibly in line to be accused of anything.

As said, if Clare Daly was so confident in her facts, she would have named them outside the Dáil instead of inside. She's a coward, only interested in playing populist games, like any other politician. Don't be fooled by her veneer of pretending to be acting in the public interest.

Iwannahurl · 12-12-2012 01:23PM

MagicSean wrote: »

Gardaí have a common law power of discretion as to wether they initiate a prosecution and that is what the cancellation of a fixed charge penalty is.

Maybe you agree with them having this power and maybe you don't. Personally I think it is necessary for effective policing. I don't think it's fair to force someone to go to court because they went a kilometer or two above the speed limit or because their tax disc got lost in the post. I think if a Garda stops a car with no tax with a family in it he should have the choice as to wether to seize the car and put them out in the rain or give them a chance to rectify the situation over the next few days.

Firstly, that bit about a kilometre or two over the speed limit is a myth, of the type that's popular in the Motors forum.

I recall a very senior Garda saying on radio a while back that in many ways the power of discretion is a Garda's greatest power.

If that is the case then perhaps it should also be the area where the most rigorous oversight is applied.

Discretion is all very well for "effective policing" but what checks and balances are being applied, and how open, transparent and accountable is the process?

In my experience, which relates mostly to traffic law, Gardai indeed exercise their discretion but not in a balanced way.

If a Garda issues an FCN they are using their discretion. If another Garda cancels that FCN they are using their discretion. If a Garda sees a traffic law offence and chooses to ignore it they are using their discretion.

But when using their discretion in such situations, are they acting according to specific guidelines, official policy, personal values, personal prejudice, populist concerns or what? How do we know what their motivation is?

And how can I, as a citizen, hope that a Garda will act on a complaint or request from me in a particular situation if that officer can just walk away and say they're using their discretion to ignore me and let a traffic law offender off the hook? What recourse do I have -- in that moment -- if neither the law nor policy nor guidelines nor my complaint matter as much as that Garda's power of discretion?

.

MagicSean · 12-12-2012 01:24PM

WileyCoyote wrote: »

Fair play to them , hopefully they will now name all the Gardaí involved under privelege as well so we can get all the facts that are being kept under wraps by the minister and the Commissioner.
Honest Gardaí deserve to have these guys/gals named.

Do you honestly believe that naming everyone, innocent and guilty, in the hopes of outing the guilty is a fair thing to do?

Dodge · 12-12-2012 01:25PM

seamus wrote: »

As said, if Clare Daly was so confident in her facts, she would have named them outside the Dáil instead of inside. She's a coward, only interested in playing populist games, like any other politician. Don't be fooled by her veneer of pretending to be acting in the public interest.

To be fair, by saying it in the Dail she's trying to force a reaction from the Minister, because he has refused to asnwer this in the manner she wants.

Its certainly politics, but there's nothing underhand about it

MagicSean · 12-12-2012 01:27PM

Iwannahurl wrote: »

What recourse do I have

Garda Ombudsman

Iwannahurl · 12-12-2012 01:37PM

seamus wrote: »

To hell with being innocent until proven guilty, let's just name everybody who might possibly in line to be accused of anything.

As said, if Clare Daly was so confident in her facts, she would have named them outside the Dáil instead of inside. She's a coward, only interested in playing populist games, like any other politician. Don't be fooled by her veneer of pretending to be acting in the public interest.

I'm no fan of that particular group in the Dail, but they know there's a legal exemption and they're availing of it.

Using their discretion, presumably.

Not unheard of in other quarters, as you know.

.

Ash.J.Williams · 12-12-2012 01:41PM

How is this surprising...do people really think high profile gaa and rugby players and actors etc get points for speeding?

Iwannahurl · 12-12-2012 01:48PM

MagicSean wrote: »

Garda Ombudsman

I knew you'd say that, which is why I used these words:

Iwannahurl wrote: »

What recourse do I have -- in that moment -- if neither the law nor policy nor guidelines nor my complaint matter as much as that Garda's power of discretion?

Death and Taxes · 12-12-2012 02:27PM

MagicSean wrote: »

Do you honestly believe that naming everyone, innocent and guilty, in the hopes of outing the guilty is a fair thing to do?

Its fairer than the current cover up.

MagicSean · 12-12-2012 03:41PM

WileyCoyote wrote: »

Its fairer than the current cover up.

Not for those who did nothing wrong.

Iwannahurl · 12-12-2012 05:10PM

MagicSean wrote: »

Not for those who did nothing wrong.

Mick, Ming & Co. have a legal exemption in relation to such things, and they're using it, according to their own discretion presumably.

MagicSean · 12-12-2012 05:14PM

Iwannahurl wrote: »

Mick, Ming & Co. have a legal exemption in relation to such things, and they're using it, according to their own discretion presumably.

You've said that three times now and it would seem you don't know what discretion means in this context.

Iwannahurl · 12-12-2012 05:47PM

MagicSean wrote: »

You've said that three times now and it would seem you don't know what discretion means in this context.

Do the words "exemption" and "discretion" mean different things in different settings?

Oireachtas members have a legal exemption in terms of what they can say in the House versus what they can say outside.

Presumably they can also use their discretion regarding when to use that exemption.

Does that strike you as being very different to any other exemption/discretion entitlement enshrined in law?

MagicSean · 12-12-2012 06:13PM

Iwannahurl wrote: »

Do the words "exemption" and "discretion" mean different things in different settings?

Yes

Iwannahurl wrote: »

Oireachtas members have a legal exemption in terms of what they can say in the House versus what they can say outside.

Presumably they can also use their discretion regarding when to use that exemption.

Does that strike you as being very different to any other exemption/discretion entitlement enshrined in law?

The power of discretion is a legal power given to gardaí to decide wether a prosecution for a monor offence is in the best interests of justice.

Parliamentary priviledge is a legal protection given to TDs so they can raise an issue in the Dáil without having to be afraid of prosecution or civil action.

Parliamentary priviledge should not be used to defame people or breach their privacy without good cause in the same way that discretion should not be used to let people off a prosecution because of who they know.

Death and Taxes · 12-12-2012 07:00PM

MagicSean wrote: »

Yes

The power of discretion is a legal power given to gardaí to decide wether a prosecution for a monor offence is in the best interests of justice.

Parliamentary priviledge is a legal protection given to TDs so they can raise an issue in the Dáil without having to be afraid of prosecution or civil action.

Parliamentary priviledge should not be used to defame people or breach their privacy without good cause in the same way that discretion should not be used to let people off a prosecution because of who they know.

But in this case they would argue, and I would agree that they have good cause. I for one do not believe it credible that a Judge was speeding at twice the legal limit on the same stretch of road on two consecutive days because in her spare times she covers for the ambulance service by rushing sick children to hospital!
Unless we have an open and transparent system of justice then issues like these will lead to people being named.

12-12-2012 07:09PM

The longer this goes on the better. Before the media is hushed and the usual brushing under the carpet of corrupt affairs.

http://www.breakingnews.ie/ireland/td-reported-to-ethics-watchdog-after-penalty-points-statement-577617.html

MagicSean · 12-12-2012 07:14PM

WileyCoyote wrote: »

But in this case they would argue, and I would agree that they have good cause. I for one do not believe it credible that a Judge was speeding at twice the legal limit on the same stretch of road on two consecutive days because in her spare times she covers for the ambulance service by rushing sick children to hospital!
Unless we have an open and transparent system of justice then issues like these will lead to people being named.

If there was any evidence to suggest that her fine was cancelled inappropriately then you might have a point, but there isn't. She is only being made an issue of because of her position and not because of the facts of the case. I can't see how you can consider that right.

Death and Taxes · 12-12-2012 07:24PM

MagicSean wrote: »

If there was any evidence to suggest that her fine was cancelled inappropriately then you might have a point, but there isn't. She is only being made an issue of because of her position and not because of the facts of the case. I can't see how you can consider that right.

Right so there we have it, you can't seem to accept that it is even possible that there could be favouritism being shown to anyone by the Gardai, and that it is perfectly acceptable in a democracy that the police force should be able to hide all decisions behind the veil of "discretion".
Sure why not just grant the gardai a totally free hand and let them do as they like, I'm sure all will be fine, like it was in Donegal , or in the 70's and 80's under the heavy gang!

MagicSean · 12-12-2012 07:28PM

WileyCoyote wrote: »

Right so there we have it, you can't seem to accept that it is even possible that there could be favouritism being shown to anyone by the Gardai, and that it is perfectly acceptable in a democracy that the police force should be able to hide all decisions behind the veil of "discretion".
Sure why not just grant the gardai a totally free hand and let them do as they like, I'm sure all will be fine, like it was in Donegal , or in the 70's and 80's under the heavy gang!

I fully accept there is a possibility of favouritism. I don't accept that it's ok to name someone like that without any evidence of favouritism in the hopes that they are guilty. It's a breach of that persons privacy.

Death and Taxes · 12-12-2012 07:47PM

MagicSean wrote: »

I fully accept there is a possibility of favouritism. I don't accept that it's ok to name someone like that without any evidence of favouritism in the hopes that they are guilty. It's a breach of that persons privacy.

Well if we could have a system that the public had faith in then the issue of people being named in the Dail wouldn't happen.
But I do take your point Sean, at the moment household names (which i choose not to repeat on the net) are being found guilty in the court of public opinion. That unfortunatley is a result of a very ad hoc system that is wholly lacking in transparency.
it is also a pity because it is and will create ill feeling towards the ordinary guards on the beat.

Going Forward · 13-12-2012 12:01AM

I heard Mick Wallace on Morning Ireland this morning.

He's a brave man to say he doesnt trust the Gardai to investigate themselves, but he's also correct.

What is the point of having a Garda Ombudsman if they are not investigating these allegations? Instead, as Matt Cooper siad this evening, the Gardai have opened "an independent internal enquiry, an oxymoron".

BTW, I do not agree with and see no need for anyone's name to be mentioned in the Dail as having had their points wiped. That was a mistake.

TheNog · 13-12-2012 12:27AM

WileyCoyote wrote: »

it is also a pity because it is and will create ill feeling towards the ordinary guards on the beat.

You are right it will probably create ill will towards ordinary guards but only by those who are terribly misinformed or do not wish to know the full facts.

Let's not forget or overlook the fact that these FCNs were created by ordinary guards in the first place.

Iwannahurl · 13-12-2012 01:19AM

MagicSean wrote: »

Parliamentary priviledge should not be used to defame people or breach their privacy without good cause in the same way that discretion should not be used to let people off a prosecution because of who they know.

And as the link posted earlier indicates, there is some sort of ethical oversight of parliamentary privilege.

Can the same be said of Garda discretion, and Garda exemptions?

Before you say GSOC again, I don't believe that is sufficient for two reasons: (1) the GSOC is mainly concerned with more serious complaints and relatively minor issues are dealt with in-house IIRC, (2) the non-GSOC AGS complaints procedure is not transparent, accountable or impartial, in my opinion and experience.

Garda wiped driving slate for two judges and RTE presenter

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