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Welcome to Scumtown... **Mod warning Post 8**

135

Comments

  • #62
    PauloMN
    Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators, Regional North East Moderators Posts: 10,883 Mod ✭✭✭✭PauloMN


    Spiritual wrote: »
    Well then put people in prison if they commit crime. The idea of a scum town is to segregate those that are deemed unworthy to live wth the rest. We all ready have these all over the world they are called Ghettos.



    Anyone that supports an ideal like this is in my mind right wing as they support social inequality. The people who most likely will end up in a "scum town" will invariably come from a poor socially deprived lifestyle in the first place.

    This saves putting people straight in prison though. Call it a half-way house. It's supposed to both punish and educate people so that they act like socially responsible citizens.

    So right wing means someone who supports social inequality? Wow, that's so way off the mark it's not funny.

    Would be interested to know how you would handle extreme anti-social behaviour in your socialist world though. Like how it's currently being handled? (Which is not working).


  • #63
    dark crystal
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,962 ✭✭✭✭dark crystal


    Higher wrote: »
    I actually quite like that idea. Three convictions and your social welfare is cut 50%. Similarly, continued anti-social behavior from children and their parents will have their child benefits cut.

    Such an approach would have 3 major benefits:
    1. It would make toe-rags think twice before committing a crime
    2. It might make the parents of the toe-rags actually want to ensure they aren't out terrorizing the public
    3. It will reduce the amount of money we spend on hand-outs.

    Agreed. There also needs to be an overhaul in the law as to how young offenders are dealt with in this country. Under a certain age, youngsters are given almost free reign to do what they like without impunity from the law. I had my house burgled twice by the same scumbag, who happened to be 11 at the time. The Guards said there was nothing they could do about it, due to her age.

    Her parents should have been made responsible for her crime, brought to court and fined. The second time, their welfare cut and for a third offence, a short custodial sentence (she's committed numerous crimes over the years), until she herself comes of age and can be held responsible for her own actions.

    Council estates with problem families should be regularly and frequently patrolled by community Gardai, who in turn, should liaise closely with the council.
    Reports and complaints should be taken seriously by the council, who should adopt the three strikes and you're out rule. Too many decent families in these estates are living in fear of others who don't abide by the law and make other people's life a living hell.
    I know of one woman, who has been burgled, assaulted and threatened by another neighbour (a known drug dealer), yet this neighbour is still happily living in the house provided for them by the council. Persistent criminal behaviour should NEVER be tolerated by the council, yet they do nothing about these families whom they have situated next to ordinary, decent folk.

    Leave criminal and anti-social behaviour go unchecked and that's when certain estates become infested with scum.

    Tackle the root causes head on and there should be no need for 'ghettos'.


  • #64
    touts
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,667 ✭✭✭touts


    A proper criminal justice system where people either respected or feared the law would be far more efficent. Years of softly softly ahh sure won't someone think of the poor criminals have left us in a situation where you have more rights as a criminal than as a law abiding citizen.

    Long jail sentences in terrible conditions. High fines. Withdrawl of Welfare. Evictions onto the street. Make an example of a handful and the rest will fall into line.


  • #65
    dark crystal
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,962 ✭✭✭✭dark crystal


    PauloMN wrote: »

    Would be interested to know how you would handle extreme anti-social behaviour in your socialist world though. Like how it's currently being handled? (Which is not working).

    I often find the people who like to take a softly-softly approach to criminals, don't usually have to live next to them.


  • #66
    V_Moth
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,423 ✭✭✭V_Moth


    davet82 wrote: »
    http://www.independent.ie/world-news/europe/amsterdam-scum-town-to-house-antisocial-neighbours-3315514.html



    This sounds like a good idea, I wonder would it work here? although we'd probably need a whole county not just a town <mod snip>.


    EDIT:
    I do not agree with this by the way, edit may have distorted my views,

    apologies to any offence caused to the people of Limerick, I thought it was clearly tongue n cheek which obviously didnt come across

    Would the Irish version be called Skangsterdam?


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  • #67
    Anyone
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,376 ✭✭✭Anyone


    dark crystal wrote: »
    I often find the people who like to take a softly-softly approach to criminals, don't usually have to live next to them.

    100% true.


  • #68
    Death and Taxes
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,775 ✭✭✭Death and Taxes


    touts wrote: »
    A proper criminal justice system where people either respected or feared the law would be far more efficent. Years of softly softly ahh sure won't someone think of the poor criminals have left us in a situation where you have more rights as a criminal than as a law abiding citizen.

    Long jail sentences in terrible conditions. High fines. Withdrawl of Welfare. Evictions onto the street. Make an example of a handful and the rest will fall into line.

    All were tried previously, all failed miserabley!
    No evidence of the softy softly rubbish you claim has occured.


  • #69
    Dartz
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,420 ✭✭✭Dartz


    touts wrote: »
    A proper criminal justice system where people either respected or feared the law would be far more efficent. Years of softly softly ahh sure won't someone think of the poor criminals have left us in a situation where you have more rights as a criminal than as a law abiding citizen.

    Long jail sentences in terrible conditions. High fines. Withdrawl of Welfare. Evictions onto the street. Make an example of a handful and the rest will fall into line.

    Yes, Yes... fear will keep the local systems in line. Fear of this battlestation


  • #70
    PauloMN
    Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators, Regional North East Moderators Posts: 10,883 Mod ✭✭✭✭PauloMN


    dark crystal wrote: »
    I often find the people who like to take a softly-softly approach to criminals, don't usually have to live next to them.

    Agreed. The very same people who don't want these "ghettos" fail to realise that we already have ghettos - where 95% of the decent people in those estates have to put up with ongoing anti-social behaviour from the 5% of scumbags running the place.


  • #71
    looksee
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 29,679 ✭✭✭✭looksee


    I think there could be some merit to this idea. Some people immediately take it to genocide comparisons, which are irrelevant. The objective is to remove people who are making other people's lives miserable, and impose some sort of level of personal discipline on them. Since it would be short term there would not be time for it to turn into a ghetto.

    The people whose lives are being made miserable do have at least as much rights as the anti-social people.

    If a situation is bad enough for this action, the children should be in care, certainly they should be in care during the stay in the 'village'.

    People have expressed the idea that prison would be appropriate for anti-social behaviour, this would be an alternative to prison, with education. It would also be an opportunity for intervention to try and find solutions to the issues that are causing the anti-social behaviour.

    In the mean-time the house is made basically habitable and the family return to it. If the antisocial behaviour resumes then they are out of the house and/or fined or imprisoned.

    Maybe in the meantime we need some sort of a mediation service to help people whose lives are being made miserable by antisocial neighbours.


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  • #72
    PauloMN
    Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators, Regional North East Moderators Posts: 10,883 Mod ✭✭✭✭PauloMN


    WileyCoyote wrote: »
    All were tried previously, all failed miserabley!
    No evidence of the softy softly rubbish you claim has occured.

    No evidence of softly-softly? :eek: Look around you, we are so soft on crime in this country it's unreal!!


  • #73
    9959
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,785 ✭✭✭9959


    Brutal Deluxe wrote: »
    It's not a ghetto. It's six months in a place monitored by the police and only for the worst of the worst

    The "worst of the worst" should be tried, and if convicted, sent to prison.


  • #74
    johnr1
    Closed Accounts Posts: 965 ✭✭✭johnr1


    Wasn't this tried already? Australia....... and besides the fact that a fair proportion of the Irish sent there were transported for rebellion, it turned out reasonably well. Just not so good for the Aboriginal people.


  • #75
    touts
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,667 ✭✭✭touts


    Dartz wrote: »
    Yes, Yes... fear will keep the local systems in line. Fear of this battlestation

    Why is it that anytime someone proposes a slightly rightwing approach to solving societies problems the lefties fall back on their broken record of quoting Facists or Star Wars.

    Punishing people properly doesn't automatically end up with gassing them or blowing up their planet.


  • #76
    dark crystal
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,962 ✭✭✭✭dark crystal


    WileyCoyote wrote: »
    All were tried previously, all failed miserabley!
    No evidence of the softy softly rubbish you claim has occured.

    Can you post any link to a case where it has been shown that a person engaging in anti-social behaviour was punished by a reduction in welfare, a high fine and eviction please?

    Can you then post a link as to how that measure failed miserably for the neighbours living next to that person.


  • #77
    hooradiation
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,922 ✭✭✭hooradiation


    dark crystal wrote: »
    I often find the people who like to take a softly-softly approach to criminals, don't usually have to live next to them.

    Well, as long as you can disregard entire arguments based on what you imagine a persons experiences to be, you won't have to think too hard about this bullshit, will you?


  • #78
    BASHIR
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 553 ✭✭✭BASHIR


    What exactly is wrong with their prisons?

    Ha it'l be just like district 9 except without aliens and the bad acting.


  • #79
    BraziliaNZ
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 5,671 ✭✭✭BraziliaNZ


    Funny thing is, it being Holland, most if not all of these people will be immigrants, mostly Moroccans I'd say. This will annoy liberals all over the place.


  • #80
    Spiritual
    Closed Accounts Posts: 491 ✭✭Spiritual


    How do we class people to qualify to be moved into "scum town"?

    It seems the person being identified are the social housing, council flat, benefit receiving that are already being lined up for the "half way" house. People that have little chance of escaping to the better side of the tracks.

    Is their any plans to put the scum in suits that have ruined our country. I personally have never been affected by the social housing, council flat, benefit receiving but my life has taken a major upheavel caused by the latter, these are the one's that have caused me and I am sure al ot of other people in this country sleepless nights.

    People in AH then to only look in one direction for someone to blame.


  • #81
    Roadtrippin
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 350 ✭✭Roadtrippin


    BASHIR wrote: »
    What exactly is wrong with their prisons?

    Maybe the same things as with our prisons...

    Hate to say it but even if someone thought this was an idea worth pursuing here, we don't even have enough resources to take care of the problem of overpopulated prisons. Who would fund 24/7 surveillance of a project like that?


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  • #82
    hooradiation
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,922 ✭✭✭hooradiation


    BraziliaNZ wrote: »
    Funny thing is, it being Holland, most if not all of these people will be immigrants, mostly Moroccans I'd say. This will annoy liberals all over the place.

    It should annoy anyone with a functioning brain, let alone your phantom "liberals"


  • #83
    dark crystal
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,962 ✭✭✭✭dark crystal


    hooradiation wrote: »
    Well, as long as you can disregard entire arguments based on what you imagine a persons experiences to be, you won't have to think too hard about this bullshit, will you?

    Yes, people who have never experienced living next to these people day in and day out will never actually know what it's like and base entire arguments around something they have no exposure to.
    Fortunately for them, they can afford to keep their ideals intact, whilst the ones actually living it have to bear the brunt of the failure of the law where it comes to anti-social behaviour.


  • #84
    Furious_George
    Closed Accounts Posts: 215 ✭✭Furious_George


    WileyCoyote wrote: »
    All were tried previously, all failed miserabley!
    No evidence of the softy softly rubbish you claim has occured.

    Bull crap, Every day here on AH we have threads which highlight cases where career criminals get off with soft sentences due to their deprived background, drug/alcohol addiction, etc. This is the softly softly approach and all you have to do is open your eyes and ears to get the evidence you seek. If you still cant see it then you are living in a fantasy world.


  • #85
    hooradiation
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,922 ✭✭✭hooradiation


    dark crystal wrote: »
    Yes, people who have never experienced living next to these people day in and day out will never actually know what it's like.
    Fortunately for them, they can afford to keep their ideals intact, whilst the ones actually living it have to bear the brunt of the failure of the law where it comes to anti-social behaviour.

    You know, when someone points out the fatal flaw in your fantasy, your response shouldn't be to cling tighter to the shitty reasoning that got you into this predicament in the first place.


  • #86
    dark crystal
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,962 ✭✭✭✭dark crystal


    hooradiation wrote: »
    You know, when someone points out the fatal flaw in your fantasy, your response shouldn't be to cling tighter to the shitty reasoning that got you into this predicament in the first place.

    What fatal flaw are you referring to exactly?


  • #87
    Crann na Beatha
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,763 ✭✭✭✭Crann na Beatha


    This post has been deleted.


  • #88
    hooradiation
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,922 ✭✭✭hooradiation


    dark crystal wrote: »
    What fatal flaw are you referring to exactly?


    It's not a subtle one, so I find it hard to believe you're genuinely as clueless as you're pretending to be.

    Try reading over this little exchange again, it should be easy to trace back.
    Or just stop pretending.


  • #89
    dark crystal
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,962 ✭✭✭✭dark crystal


    hooradiation wrote: »
    It's not a subtle one, so I find it hard to believe you're genuinely as clueless as you're pretending to be.

    Try reading over this little exchange again, it should be easy to trace back.
    Or just stop pretending.

    I'm afraid you'll have to spell it out for me. All I know is that you quoted a paragraph of mine about people taking a softly softly approach towards criminals often never having lived next to one and you made some ambiguous statement about disregarding entire arguments based on what I imagine a person's experience to be.

    Also, dial down the condescending tone please. It's easier to make a point when you just say what you mean instead of making pointed little digs.


  • #90
    PauloMN
    Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators, Regional North East Moderators Posts: 10,883 Mod ✭✭✭✭PauloMN


    Spiritual wrote: »
    How do we class people to qualify to be moved into "scum town"?

    It seems the person being identified are the social housing, council flat, benefit receiving that are already being lined up for the "half way" house. People that have little chance of escaping to the better side of the tracks.

    Is their any plans to put the scum in suits that have ruined our country. I personally have never been affected by the social housing, council flat, benefit receiving but my life has taken a major upheavel caused by the latter, these are the one's that have caused me and I am sure al ot of other people in this country sleepless nights.

    People in AH then to only look in one direction for someone to blame.

    Absolute nonsense. Nobody would be "lined up" to be moved into such a place. Quite the contrary, I'd imagine that only those involved in persistent and serious anti-social behaviour i.e. damage to property, threats, physical violence, bullying etc.. would be even considered for such a move, and after numerous interventions from social services.

    Do not try and paint this as something which it is not. This idea is being mooted so that decent people who play by the rules can have a method by which scumbags can be moved elsewhere temporarily, rather than the decent people being driven out of an area. Somewhere they can be punished to an extent, somewhere they can maybe learn how to live like considerate people and somewhere away from decent people while they sort themselves out.

    Of course it will be people from a lower socio-economic background that end up in such a place - that's as obvious as the nose on your face. It's a proposal to deal with anti-social behaviour in council estates, so of course the demographic of people who end up being moved will be from a lower socio-econmic background. To hint that that is some sort of right wing agenda targetting everyone who lives in council housing is absolutely pathetic tbh.


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  • #91
    looksee
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 29,679 ✭✭✭✭looksee


    I don't have the faintest idea what hooradiation is talking about either, I read the 'disregard entire arguments' sentence and thought I must be having a brain fuse because I totally could not make out the meaning.


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