Welcome to Scumtown... **Mod warning Post 8**

davet82

http://www.independent.ie/world-news/europe/amsterdam-scum-town-to-house-antisocial-neighbours-3315514.html

AMSTERDAM is to create "scum villages" where nuisance neighbours and anti-social tenants will be exiled from the city and rehoused in caravans or containers with "minimal services" under constant police supervision.

The Dutch capital already has a squad of municipal officials to identify the worst offenders for a compulsory six-month course on how to behave.

This sounds like a good idea, I wonder would it work here? although we'd probably need a whole county not just a town <mod snip>.


EDIT:
I do not agree with this by the way, edit may have distorted my views,

apologies to any offence caused to the people of Limerick, I thought it was clearly tongue n cheek which obviously didnt come across

Seaneh

Wow... This is a ****ing terrible idea...

Wacker The Attacker

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2Ox1Tore9nw

El Horseboxo

Hamsterdam?

Rabidlamb

In the Getto . . . .

I think this is a great idea, there's absolutely no chance this right wing proposal could ever be abused & extended to say, certain factions or races.
If history has thought us anything we've nothing to fear here.

peadar76

good idea. an island of the coast would be perfect

Wacker The Attacker

We already have them here.

They're called halting sites.

Mod: Banned.

El Weirdo

Right, OP edited, posts deleted and a user banned.

I'm going to re-open this now as I think it could be an interesting discussion.

A word of warning though; any Dublin v Limerick v Cork v any-other-town/city crap and there will be bans handed out.

Same goes for bashing of any particular ethnic or cultural groupings - you know exactly who I'm talking about.

Duggy747

Aw cool, that means we'll end up having Escape From New York type scenarios!!

previous user

davet82 wrote: »

http://www.independent.ie/world-news/europe/amsterdam-scum-town-to-house-antisocial-neighbours-3315514.html



This sounds like a good idea, I wonder would it work here? although we'd probably need a whole county not just a town <mod snip>.


EDIT:
I do not agree with this by the way, edit may have distorted my views,

apologies to any offence caused to the people of Limerick, I thought it was clearly tongue n cheek which obviously didnt come across

Why is this guy getting a red card, ok not all of Dublin, But I can tell you certain groups of people on council estates could use this.

Tombi!

If they're under 24 hour surveillance then what's the problem?
Better keep them all in one place instead of having them making life Hell for normal people that are capable of living like civilized people.

Dodge

previous user wrote: »

Why is this guy getting a red card, ok not all of Dublin, But I can tell you certain council estates could use this.

Do you think its already happened to "certain council estates" and is that the reason you hold them in such, presumably, low esteem?

corktina

it's a dreadful idea. a riot waiting to happen... educate scum where possible, properly discipline them if that fails.

upstairs for coffee

Brutal Deluxe wrote: »

If they're under 24 hour surveillance then what's the problem?
Better keep them all in one place instead of having them making life Hell for normal people that are capable of living like civilized people.

But you are medicating the problem rather than curing it.

Some people are inherently scum, I get that. I am also not one for the excuse of letting criminals off because the poor sods had miserable upbringings, however why not get to the root cause of why these people turn out the way they do and fix it?

FatherLen

fooking prauns

Plazaman

The big difference over there is they have the police resources to monitor Scumtown for 24 hours a day. We haven't enough Gardai for ordinary towns and so it'd just end up in a big arguement about overtime and taxpayers money and yadda yadda yadda.

Having said that we have plenty of containers to spare now that we gotten rid of the e-voting machines, sell them to Amsterdam yayyyyyy!!!!

CruelCoin

Seaneh wrote: »

Wow... This is a ****ing terrible idea...

It's a bloody brilliant idea.

Mind you, I'd modify it to shipping containers, out at sea, aboard an aging container ship. Otherwise all you do is ship the scumbags to the countryside, where they get to harass and terrorise a brand new set of law-abiding neighbours.

Tombi!

upstairs for coffee wrote: »

But you are medicating the problem rather than curing it.

Some people are inherently scum, I get that. I am also not one for the excuse of letting criminals off because the poor sods had miserable upbringings, however why not get to the root cause of why these people turn out the way they do and fix it?

I thought the idea was that it's sort of like prison but not so harsh. That it's supposed to stop them behaving like scum otherwise they kept put in there.

I get where you're coming from but I imagine that people who end up there really do deserve it.
Assuming they're actually sticking to what they're saying in the article.

CruelCoin

Plazaman wrote: »

The big difference over there is they have the police resources to monitor Scumtown for 24 hours a day. We haven't enough Gardai for ordinary towns and so it'd just end up in a big arguement about overtime and taxpayers money and yadda yadda yadda.

Having said that we have plenty of containers to spare now that we gotten rid of the e-voting machines, sell them to Amsterdam yayyyyyy!!!!

PROFIT!

Dartz

And the sign over the gates...

werk maakt je vrij


It's a good idea for the exact same reason it's a terrible idea. It shovels the problem under the carpet without bothering to deal with it.

uberalles

We are so soft on thugs you have got to wonder what Ireland will be like in 10 + years.

I was speaking to a polish fellow who was saying in Poland if a junkey neighbour kicks off and attacks for example, the law is very tough. The judge will likely cut his dole by a %.
A fine can be imposed and if it's not paid a team enters the house and removes anything that can be sold. Inc tv or anything of value excluding what the low life is wearing. That team is a private company. If the parent can't provide for the kids due to reduced income of the dole slashed, the kids are taken into care.

I say reopen spike island and run with this polish model of justice. Ordinary working people need to be protected from low life. There needs to be real consequences for violent behaviour that we hear about all the time.

meoklmrk91

I think this is terrible idea, it has been shown again and again that this kind of thing does not work! Also I saw the OP after the mod edit and still knew the OP was on about Limerick, jeez way have an original thought there.

jenniferalan

Wonder how they'll enforce their values on "how to behave" during the 6 month course...

CruelCoin

upstairs for coffee wrote: »

But you are medicating the problem rather than curing it.

Some people are inherently scum, I get that. I am also not one for the excuse of letting criminals off because the poor sods had miserable upbringings, however why not get to the root cause of why these people turn out the way they do and fix it?

But what is it about certain parts of the country (other countries included) that breeds this level of scumbaginess?

Is it just the population density, or are cities genuinely just gigantic scum breeders? Is it all the concrete 24/7 that does it?

Scumbags generally beget scumbags, so short of implementing a parenting ban for unsuitable people, this isn't really a solveable problem.

previous user

Dodge wrote: »

Do you think its already happened to "certain council estates" and is that the reason you hold them in such, presumably, low esteem?

No I've lived in a council estate for 26 years, so I've experienced first hand the dredges of society that the council lump in with the decent people. I was very grateful for the social house that the council provided for me and my family but not for some of the lowlife feckless scum who lived on our road drank beer, played loud music and generally made my life miserable.
I realised I had to get out when people were getting shot and killed on my road.

BensonSlide

CruelCoin wrote: »

But what is it about certain parts of the country (other countries included) that breeds this level of scumbaginess?

An unquestioning welfare state.

Dodge

previous user wrote: »

No I've lived in a council estate for 26 years, so I've experienced first hand the dredges of society that the council lump in with the decent people. I was very grateful for the social house that the council provided for me and my family but not for some of the lowlife feckless scum who lived on our road drank beer, played loud music and generally made my life miserable.
I realised I had to get out when people were getting shot and killed on my road.

Are you making the correlation between drinking beer and shooting people?

Jaysus

Anything that cuts any sort of people away from society is completely doomed. How ****ing dare some judge decide that a 5 year old kid is scum, and has no chance in life.

El Guapo!

So you stick all the scum together where it ends up a no go area for normal people and for the police. It turns into crime central where scum are free to run the area without outside interference.
And what about the kids that will have to grow up in such hell holes? It'll be just a training ground for future scum. Terrible idea.

PauloMN

upstairs for coffee wrote: »

But you are medicating the problem rather than curing it.

Some people are inherently scum, I get that. I am also not one for the excuse of letting criminals off because the poor sods had miserable upbringings, however why not get to the root cause of why these people turn out the way they do and fix it?

How would you propose to do that?

I think the "scum town" idea is good in general, once properly policed and run. It might give some people time to think about their behaviour. At least it give the 95% of decent citizens some hope that they might be able to live their lives in peace without the other 5% ruining it for them.

At the moment in Ireland, it seems to me that scumbags can get away with pretty much anything. It's a symptom of a society that throws money at people for nothing, and that doesn't punish crimes sufficiently. Nice to see some other countries value their citizens that are working hard, trying to live in peace.

previous user

Dodge wrote: »

Are you making the correlation between drinking beer and shooting people?

Jaysus

Anything that cuts any sort of people away from society is completely doomed. How ****ing dare some judge decide that a 5 year old kid is scum, and has no chance in life.

I'm not judging 5 year olds, eh?
Well I'guess we'll have to see how this thing turns out in Amsterdam.

saiint

not enough garda to do anything
and if anything if their was a scum town in ireland
itd be more like one BIG drug den except its a town :L
least we can get all the junkies in town in dublin away from the area :L forever asking me for smokes

Tombi!

Dean09 wrote: »

So you stick all the scum together where it ends up a no go area for normal people and for the police. It turns into crime central where scum are free to run the area without outside interference.
And what about the kids that will have to grow up in such hell holes? It'll be just a training ground for future scum. Terrible idea.

The point is (far as I got at least) to have it monitored 24/7 and it's supposed to be a deterrent in that you don't want to end up there. And it's sort of a last resort to send people to it.

9959

The idea that any municipality would deliberately create its own ghettos is mindbogglingly stupid.
We're talking about human beings here, not laboratory rats.

gungun

So the Dutch are doing a district 13 job on it, I wonder who they'll get the nuke from?

Sunnyisland

It has been tried before and failed, from the same link...
In the 19th Century, troublemakers were moved to special villages in Drenthe and Overijssel outside Amsterdam. The villages were rarely successful, becoming sink estates for the lawless.

Did we not have these type of ares here before in Ireland where groups of a certain type of people were all housed together, keogh square,hollyfield buildings etc, All it will create is another super ghetto where the lunatics will take over the asylum.

It wont be long now before we have armed gated estates like they have in South Africa and the Us.

Tombi!

9959 wrote: »

The idea that any municipality would deliberately create its own ghettos is mindbogglingly stupid.
We're talking about human beings here, not laboratory rats.

It's not a ghetto. It's six months in a place monitored by the police and only for the worst of the worst

PauloMN

Dean09 wrote: »

So you stick all the scum together where it ends up a no go area for normal people and for the police. It turns into crime central where scum are free to run the area without outside interference.

Sounds good to me, leave them to it. Rats will eat each other eventually.

Dean09 wrote: »

And what about the kids that will have to grow up in such hell holes? It'll be just a training ground for future scum. Terrible idea.

Kids should be removed from any family environment that is so dysfunctional that it requires parents to be rehoused in a "scum town". That should be part of the system. If you are having to move a family out of an area because of extreme anti-social behaviour, the kids should not be there in the first place.

upstairs for coffee

PauloMN wrote: »

How would you propose to do that?

I think the "scum town" idea is good in general, once properly policed and run. It might give some people time to think about their behaviour. At least it give the 95% of decent citizens some hope that they might be able to live their lives in peace without the other 5% ruining it for them.

At the moment in Ireland, it seems to me that scumbags can get away with pretty much anything. It's a symptom of a society that throws money at people for nothing, and that doesn't punish crimes sufficiently. Nice to see some other countries value their citizens that are working hard, trying to live in peace.

We are in the 21st century and people are advocating the idea of "scum towns" - that doesn't sit well with me. Scumtowns would just be a visceral solution rather than rational one, akin to putting a plaster on a severed leg rather than operating.

How would I go about it? Investment. I know that is a term banded around and has become quite generic but investment is key. It doesn't mean free handouts.

What I would be in favour of is going to be very unpopular. I would be in favour of more investment in social services and them to have more power. I would set up re-educating schools, where as well as the basic maths, English etc the scum children are taught the basic human manners and respect required to live in a society that is predicated on being civilised.

Where you draw the line between Government intervention is another debate though.

Dravokivich

Don't like the sound of it, what's an "undesirable?" The idea of using caravans and shipping containers makes it sound quick to mobilise, which is king of worrying, why would they want to move them quickly? Also it disguises the fact that its very much nothing more than a prison with constant supervision being provided by police.

El Guapo!

Brutal Deluxe wrote: »

The point is (far as I got at least) to have it monitored 24/7 and it's supposed to be a deterrent in that you don't want to end up there. And it's sort of a last resort to send people to it.

Yeah but the problem is, nothing ever works out the way it's planned. You could almost guarantee the place would just be a crime riddled slum and nobody, including the police, will want to even venture inside it. It sounds like something from a movie.

It's a terrible idea in my opinion and it'll only lead to further problems down the road.

El Guapo!

PauloMN wrote: »

Sounds good to me, leave them to it. Rats will eat each other eventually..

But that won't happen. They're not just gonna kill each other till there's nobody left. It doesn't work that way.

PauloMN wrote: »

Kids should be removed from any family environment that is so dysfunctional that it requires parents to be rehoused in a "scum town". That should be part of the system. If you are having to move a family out of an area because of extreme anti-social behaviour, the kids should not be there in the first place.

I agree fully with that.

Tombi!

Dean09 wrote: »

Yeah but the problem is, nothing ever works out the way it's planned. You could almost guarantee the place would just be a crime riddled slum and nobody, including the police, will want to even venture inside it. It sounds like something from a movie.

It's a terrible idea in my opinion and it'll only lead to further problems down the road.

Well at the moment there's less than 20 families going to be in it.
And I reckon it'll be more like a caravan site than an actual large neighbourhood. You could be right, though. I think it'll work or at least it should in theory (depends on the how good the police and monitoring are).

PauloMN

upstairs for coffee wrote: »

We are in the 21st century and people are advocating the idea of "scum towns" - that doesn't sit well with me. Scumtowns would just be a visceral solution rather than rational one, akin to putting a plaster on a severed leg rather than operating.

How would I go about it? Investment. I know that is a term banded around and has become quite generic but investment is key. It doesn't mean free handouts.

What I would be in favour of is going to be very unpopular. I would be in favour of more investment in social services and them to have more power. I would set up re-educating schools, where as well as the basic maths, English etc the scum children are taught the basic human manners and respect required to live in a society that is predicated on being civilised.

Where you draw the line between Government intervention is another debate though.

I don't disagree with you. We do need to nip anti-social behaviour in the bud from an early an ages as possible.

But what do we do about existing cases? We need the education for kids, but we also need the punishment AND education for the adults.

Pumpkinseeds

As much as I hate scum, I think this is an idiotic idea. I'd be surprised if it actually becomes a reality. Surely it could be argued in the courts as a violation of human rights. It's one thing to punish adults but what happens to the children caught up in it?

Personally I would have a 3 strikes and you're out policy whereby after 3 offences of anti-social behaviour the children are taken away from the family/parent and placed in care. The parent/parents would then be evicted and would never receive council housing or rent allowance again. All round I feel it would be better for the kids and society.

upstairs for coffee

PauloMN wrote: »

But what do we do about existing cases? We need the education for kids, but we also need the punishment AND education for the adults.

That's a very good point. Although prison does nothing to reform characters, tougher prison sentences are needed. Judges of Ireland need to stop being such lenient push-overs.

tin79

uberalles wrote: »

We are so soft on thugs you have got to wonder what Ireland will be like in 10 + years.

I was speaking to a polish fellow who was saying in Poland if a junkey neighbour kicks off and attacks for example, the law is very tough. The judge will likely cut his dole by a %.
A fine can be imposed and if it's not paid a team enters the house and removes anything that can be sold. Inc tv or anything of value excluding what the low life is wearing. That team is a private company. If the parent can't provide for the kids due to reduced income of the dole slashed, the kids are taken into care.

I say reopen spike island and run with this polish model of justice. Ordinary working people need to be protected from low life. There needs to be real consequences for violent behaviour that we hear about all the time.

That must be why all the poles are so happy in Poland and none of them ever come here eh.

No wait...

Rabidlamb

While were at it why don't we put them on "special trains" where they leave but never come back . . . might sort out the shortfall in Irish Rail.
This is the sort of dodgy ground we're stepping on here, I hope no matter how things get that the Irish never resort to these methods.

squod

Tent City Jail type thing. Without the tents.

Can't say I approve. If people are engaging in anti-social behavior then put them in jail. Proper jail. Or fine them.

O/T but relevant. Time for privatized prisons in Ireland? Loads of large sites available like.

PauloMN

Rabidlamb wrote: »

While were at it why don't we put them on "special trains" where they leave but never come back . . . might sort out the shortfall in Irish Rail.
This is the sort of dodgy ground we're stepping on here, I hope no matter how things get that the Irish never resort to these methods.

To compare the "scum towns" idea with genocide is ridiculous tbh.

biko

They should get cameras installed and broadcast it 24/7. I'd watch it.

Spiritual

There is no way that this will fail. :rolleyes:

My initial thoughts are to Nazi Germany.