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Welcome to Scumtown... **Mod warning Post 8**

245

Comments

  • #32
    Tombi!
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,689 ✭✭✭Tombi!


    Dean09 wrote: »
    So you stick all the scum together where it ends up a no go area for normal people and for the police. It turns into crime central where scum are free to run the area without outside interference.
    And what about the kids that will have to grow up in such hell holes? It'll be just a training ground for future scum. Terrible idea.

    The point is (far as I got at least) to have it monitored 24/7 and it's supposed to be a deterrent in that you don't want to end up there. And it's sort of a last resort to send people to it.


  • #33
    9959
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,785 ✭✭✭9959


    The idea that any municipality would deliberately create its own ghettos is mindbogglingly stupid.
    We're talking about human beings here, not laboratory rats.


  • #34
    gungun
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 816 ✭✭✭gungun


    So the Dutch are doing a district 13 job on it, I wonder who they'll get the nuke from? :D


  • #35
    Sunnyisland
    Closed Accounts Posts: 10,562 ✭✭✭✭Sunnyisland


    It has been tried before and failed, from the same link...
    In the 19th Century, troublemakers were moved to special villages in Drenthe and Overijssel outside Amsterdam. The villages were rarely successful, becoming sink estates for the lawless.

    Did we not have these type of ares here before in Ireland where groups of a certain type of people were all housed together, keogh square,hollyfield buildings etc, All it will create is another super ghetto where the lunatics will take over the asylum.

    It wont be long now before we have armed gated estates like they have in South Africa and the Us.


  • #36
    Tombi!
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,689 ✭✭✭Tombi!


    9959 wrote: »
    The idea that any municipality would deliberately create its own ghettos is mindbogglingly stupid.
    We're talking about human beings here, not laboratory rats.

    It's not a ghetto. It's six months in a place monitored by the police and only for the worst of the worst


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  • #37
    PauloMN
    Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators, Regional North East Moderators Posts: 10,883 Mod ✭✭✭✭PauloMN


    Dean09 wrote: »
    So you stick all the scum together where it ends up a no go area for normal people and for the police. It turns into crime central where scum are free to run the area without outside interference.

    Sounds good to me, leave them to it. Rats will eat each other eventually.
    Dean09 wrote: »
    And what about the kids that will have to grow up in such hell holes? It'll be just a training ground for future scum. Terrible idea.

    Kids should be removed from any family environment that is so dysfunctional that it requires parents to be rehoused in a "scum town". That should be part of the system. If you are having to move a family out of an area because of extreme anti-social behaviour, the kids should not be there in the first place.


  • #38
    upstairs for coffee
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 553 ✭✭✭upstairs for coffee


    PauloMN wrote: »
    How would you propose to do that?

    I think the "scum town" idea is good in general, once properly policed and run. It might give some people time to think about their behaviour. At least it give the 95% of decent citizens some hope that they might be able to live their lives in peace without the other 5% ruining it for them.

    At the moment in Ireland, it seems to me that scumbags can get away with pretty much anything. It's a symptom of a society that throws money at people for nothing, and that doesn't punish crimes sufficiently. Nice to see some other countries value their citizens that are working hard, trying to live in peace.
    We are in the 21st century and people are advocating the idea of "scum towns" - that doesn't sit well with me. Scumtowns would just be a visceral solution rather than rational one, akin to putting a plaster on a severed leg rather than operating.

    How would I go about it? Investment. I know that is a term banded around and has become quite generic but investment is key. It doesn't mean free handouts.

    What I would be in favour of is going to be very unpopular. I would be in favour of more investment in social services and them to have more power. I would set up re-educating schools, where as well as the basic maths, English etc the scum children are taught the basic human manners and respect required to live in a society that is predicated on being civilised.

    Where you draw the line between Government intervention is another debate though.


  • #39
    Dravokivich
    Moderators, Category Moderators, Music Moderators, Politics Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 22,360 CMod ✭✭✭✭Dravokivich


    Don't like the sound of it, what's an "undesirable?" The idea of using caravans and shipping containers makes it sound quick to mobilise, which is king of worrying, why would they want to move them quickly? Also it disguises the fact that its very much nothing more than a prison with constant supervision being provided by police.


  • #40
    El Guapo!
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,439 ✭✭✭✭El Guapo!


    Brutal Deluxe wrote: »

    The point is (far as I got at least) to have it monitored 24/7 and it's supposed to be a deterrent in that you don't want to end up there. And it's sort of a last resort to send people to it.
    Yeah but the problem is, nothing ever works out the way it's planned. You could almost guarantee the place would just be a crime riddled slum and nobody, including the police, will want to even venture inside it. It sounds like something from a movie.

    It's a terrible idea in my opinion and it'll only lead to further problems down the road.


  • #41
    El Guapo!
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,439 ✭✭✭✭El Guapo!


    PauloMN wrote: »

    Sounds good to me, leave them to it. Rats will eat each other eventually..
    But that won't happen. They're not just gonna kill each other till there's nobody left. It doesn't work that way.

    PauloMN wrote: »
    Kids should be removed from any family environment that is so dysfunctional that it requires parents to be rehoused in a "scum town". That should be part of the system. If you are having to move a family out of an area because of extreme anti-social behaviour, the kids should not be there in the first place.
    I agree fully with that.


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  • #42
    Tombi!
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,689 ✭✭✭Tombi!


    Dean09 wrote: »
    Yeah but the problem is, nothing ever works out the way it's planned. You could almost guarantee the place would just be a crime riddled slum and nobody, including the police, will want to even venture inside it. It sounds like something from a movie.

    It's a terrible idea in my opinion and it'll only lead to further problems down the road.

    Well at the moment there's less than 20 families going to be in it.
    And I reckon it'll be more like a caravan site than an actual large neighbourhood. You could be right, though. I think it'll work or at least it should in theory (depends on the how good the police and monitoring are).


  • #43
    PauloMN
    Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators, Regional North East Moderators Posts: 10,883 Mod ✭✭✭✭PauloMN


    upstairs for coffee wrote: »
    We are in the 21st century and people are advocating the idea of "scum towns" - that doesn't sit well with me. Scumtowns would just be a visceral solution rather than rational one, akin to putting a plaster on a severed leg rather than operating.

    How would I go about it? Investment. I know that is a term banded around and has become quite generic but investment is key. It doesn't mean free handouts.

    What I would be in favour of is going to be very unpopular. I would be in favour of more investment in social services and them to have more power. I would set up re-educating schools, where as well as the basic maths, English etc the scum children are taught the basic human manners and respect required to live in a society that is predicated on being civilised.

    Where you draw the line between Government intervention is another debate though.

    I don't disagree with you. We do need to nip anti-social behaviour in the bud from an early an ages as possible.

    But what do we do about existing cases? We need the education for kids, but we also need the punishment AND education for the adults.


  • #44
    Pumpkinseeds
    Closed Accounts Posts: 8,635 ✭✭✭Pumpkinseeds


    As much as I hate scum, I think this is an idiotic idea. I'd be surprised if it actually becomes a reality. Surely it could be argued in the courts as a violation of human rights. It's one thing to punish adults but what happens to the children caught up in it?

    Personally I would have a 3 strikes and you're out policy whereby after 3 offences of anti-social behaviour the children are taken away from the family/parent and placed in care. The parent/parents would then be evicted and would never receive council housing or rent allowance again. All round I feel it would be better for the kids and society.


  • #45
    upstairs for coffee
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 553 ✭✭✭upstairs for coffee


    PauloMN wrote: »

    But what do we do about existing cases? We need the education for kids, but we also need the punishment AND education for the adults.

    That's a very good point. Although prison does nothing to reform characters, tougher prison sentences are needed. Judges of Ireland need to stop being such lenient push-overs.


  • #46
    tin79
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,270 ✭✭✭tin79


    uberalles wrote: »
    We are so soft on thugs you have got to wonder what Ireland will be like in 10 + years.

    I was speaking to a polish fellow who was saying in Poland if a junkey neighbour kicks off and attacks for example, the law is very tough. The judge will likely cut his dole by a %.
    A fine can be imposed and if it's not paid a team enters the house and removes anything that can be sold. Inc tv or anything of value excluding what the low life is wearing. That team is a private company. If the parent can't provide for the kids due to reduced income of the dole slashed, the kids are taken into care.

    I say reopen spike island and run with this polish model of justice. Ordinary working people need to be protected from low life. There needs to be real consequences for violent behaviour that we hear about all the time.

    That must be why all the poles are so happy in Poland and none of them ever come here eh.

    No wait...


  • #47
    Rabidlamb
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 2,202 ✭✭✭Rabidlamb


    While were at it why don't we put them on "special trains" where they leave but never come back . . . might sort out the shortfall in Irish Rail.
    This is the sort of dodgy ground we're stepping on here, I hope no matter how things get that the Irish never resort to these methods.


  • #48
    squod
    Closed Accounts Posts: 8,704 ✭✭✭squod


    Tent City Jail type thing. Without the tents.

    Can't say I approve. If people are engaging in anti-social behavior then put them in jail. Proper jail. Or fine them.

    O/T but relevant. Time for privatized prisons in Ireland? Loads of large sites available like.


  • #49
    PauloMN
    Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators, Regional North East Moderators Posts: 10,883 Mod ✭✭✭✭PauloMN


    Rabidlamb wrote: »
    While were at it why don't we put them on "special trains" where they leave but never come back . . . might sort out the shortfall in Irish Rail.
    This is the sort of dodgy ground we're stepping on here, I hope no matter how things get that the Irish never resort to these methods.

    To compare the "scum towns" idea with genocide is ridiculous tbh.


  • #50
    biko
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 81,219 ✭✭✭✭biko


    They should get cameras installed and broadcast it 24/7. I'd watch it.


  • #51
    Spiritual
    Closed Accounts Posts: 491 ✭✭Spiritual


    There is no way that this will fail. :rolleyes:

    My initial thoughts are to Nazi Germany.


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  • #52
    Spiritual
    Closed Accounts Posts: 491 ✭✭Spiritual


    PauloMN wrote: »
    To compare the "scum towns" idea with genocide is ridiculous tbh.

    Not really, think about it, what are the next steps. Total seclusion?
    This sparks of EXTREME RIGHT thinking though ironically the "scum towns" would be most likely full of these right wing followers.


  • #53
    Higher
    Site Banned Posts: 1,519 ✭✭✭Higher


    tin79 wrote: »
    That must be why all the poles are so happy in Poland and none of them ever come here eh.

    No wait...

    The Polish come here for higher wages not because they think we tackle crime better.

    I would have thought that was obvious to even the most basic mind


  • #54
    Higher
    Site Banned Posts: 1,519 ✭✭✭Higher


    uberalles wrote: »
    We are so soft on thugs you have got to wonder what Ireland will be like in 10 + years.

    I was speaking to a polish fellow who was saying in Poland if a junkey neighbour kicks off and attacks for example, the law is very tough. The judge will likely cut his dole by a %.
    A fine can be imposed and if it's not paid a team enters the house and removes anything that can be sold. Inc tv or anything of value excluding what the low life is wearing. That team is a private company. If the parent can't provide for the kids due to reduced income of the dole slashed, the kids are taken into care.

    I say reopen spike island and run with this polish model of justice. Ordinary working people need to be protected from low life. There needs to be real consequences for violent behaviour that we hear about all the time.

    I actually quite like that idea. Three convictions and your social welfare is cut 50%. Similarly, continued anti-social behavior from children and their parents will have their child benefits cut.

    Such an approach would have 3 major benefits:
    1. It would make toe-rags think twice before committing a crime
    2. It might make the parents of the toe-rags actually want to ensure they aren't out terrorizing the public
    3. It will reduce the amount of money we spend on hand-outs.


  • #55
    Antar Bolaeisk
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,091 ✭✭✭Antar Bolaeisk


    If films have taught us anything it's that this is a bad idea but leads to some excellent action scenes.

    Sounds like a low level alternative to prison so I suppose if it were run properly and the people involved did actually learn there lesson it would work. The only problem is it involves people.


  • #56
    PauloMN
    Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators, Regional North East Moderators Posts: 10,883 Mod ✭✭✭✭PauloMN


    Spiritual wrote: »
    Not really, think about it, what are the next steps. Total seclusion?
    This sparks of EXTREME RIGHT thinking though ironically the "scum towns" would be most likely full of these right wing followers.

    Total seclusion? Like prison? Yeah, if required. Anyone who ends up in a "scum town" and still isn't "fixed" should end up in prison.

    How is it extreme right? And what's a "right wing follower" by your definition?


  • #57
    Dartz
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,420 ✭✭✭Dartz


    Antar Bolaeisk wrote: »
    If films have taught us anything it's that this is a bad idea but leads to some excellent action scenes.

    Sounds like a low level alternative to prison so I suppose if it were run properly and the people involved did actually learn there lesson it would work. The only problem is it involves people.

    Escape from New Amsterdam?


  • #58
    Spiritual
    Closed Accounts Posts: 491 ✭✭Spiritual


    PauloMN wrote: »
    Total seclusion? Like prison? Yeah, if required. Anyone who ends up in a "scum town" and still isn't "fixed" should end up in prison.

    Well then put people in prison if they commit crime. The idea of a scum town is to segregate those that are deemed unworthy to live wth the rest. We all ready have these all over the world they are called Ghettos.
    How is it extreme right? And what's a "right wing follower" by your definition?

    Anyone that supports an ideal like this is in my mind right wing as they support social inequality, By my definition, Scum. However the majority of people who most likely will end up in a "scum town" will invariably come from a poor socially deprived lifestyle in the first place.


  • #59
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    It seems like a great idea on paper, but what if the president is flying over scumtown and his plane gets shot down? Who is going to be crazy enough to go in after him?


  • #60
    4zn76tysfajdxp
    Closed Accounts Posts: 27,944 ✭✭✭✭4zn76tysfajdxp


    Deleted User wrote: »
    It seems like a great idea on paper, but what if the president is flying over scumtown and his plane gets shot down? Who is going to be crazy enough to go in after him?

    Snake Plissken?


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  • #61
    davet82
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,753 ✭✭✭davet82


    Higher wrote: »
    I actually quite like that idea. Three convictions and your social welfare is cut 50%. Similarly, continued anti-social behavior from children and their parents will have their child benefits cut.

    Such an approach would have 3 major benefits:
    1. It would make toe-rags think twice before committing a crime
    2. It might make the parents of the toe-rags actually want to ensure they aren't out terrorizing the public
    3. It will reduce the amount of money we spend on hand-outs.

    1. It would probably encourage crime for finacial gain?

    2. Parents don't usually have any control over them, a single mother with a teenage son with mental/emotional issues, would seem unfair to punish her?

    3. I think people would spend twice as much if it was on a solution where these people could be helped instead of punished? (maybe thats niave though)


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