Garda wiped driving slate for two judges and RTE presenter

seamus · 29-11-2012 10:51AM

dvpower wrote: »

Seems strange to me that we would be giving gardai quasi judicial powers in cases that they themselves detect and investigate.

Someone has to have these powers though. If it's not a member, then it's going to be some mouthbreather in the dept. of transport. And since the requests to cancel these are only going to come from Gardai and a public servant won't question the Garda's reasons, then really you're only doubling the possible corruption as now both Gardai and public servants can cancel fines.

You could make the cancellation process a little more difficult (e.g. have to apply to a judge), but then you create an alternative problem - Gardai issue less fines because the cancellation process is such a PITA.

pickarooney · 29-11-2012 10:52AM

The article singles out 4 people from 50,000 cases because of their social status. It does not go into any further demographic breakdown of the remaining 49,996 cases which is, if not outright dishonest, at the very least misleading.

If someone is able to recognise that they committed an infraction, apologise and learn from the experience, I think letting them off the with punishment can be fair enough. Assuming it's a one-warning system that person is likely to take more care in future and it avoids the inevitable feeling of resentment that builds in anyone getting caught doing a few km over the limit.

Bruthal · 29-11-2012 10:52AM

humanji wrote: »

There's a hell of a lot of presumptions to be made without knowing the facts. We don't know how many points these drivers had. We don't know why they received those points. We don't know the circumstances of the fatal crashes and who was to blame. So as it stands, it's little more than coincidence.

And also, how many had points removed? Thousands?

Take any large number of drivers, and there will be bad crashes from some of them sometime. The 9 mentioned as it was, is meaningless.

MagicSean · 29-11-2012 10:54AM

dvpower wrote: »

Seems strange to me that we would be giving gardai quasi judicial powers in cases that they themselves detect and investigate.

Not really. The nature of the penalty points system makes it necessary. There are many genuine cases out there where the ticket was issued in good faith by the garda who may not have been aware of the surrounding circumstances, cases where it would serve no purpose to issue court proceedings against a person for not paying. You may have read during the week about a mother who had to driver her child and the paramedic to the hospital. What if she had gone through an automated speed trap on the way? Do you really think she should have to go to court to defend herself?

seamus · 29-11-2012 11:02AM

robbie7730 wrote: »

And also, how many had points removed? Thousands?

Take any large number of drivers, and there will be bad crashes from some of them sometime. The 9 mentioned as it was, is meaningless.

That's quite an excellent point. In Co. Laois in 2010 for example, there were 39,000 registered vehicles, there were 9 fatalities from collisions.

The fact that nine of the 50,000 were later involved in fatal crashes is utterly meaningless.

SEPT 23 1989 · 29-11-2012 11:02AM

Abi wrote: »

even the blind eye turned to the odd murder!

The priest at the party?

blackwhite · 29-11-2012 11:11AM

Alijah Puny Xerox wrote: »

If they go on to kill somebody, when they should not have been on the road then it's pretty serious.

Some pretty big leaps of logic there.
1) As a number of people have pointed out already, the article only states that they were involved in fatal accidents, not that they caused them. No way to know that without further details.
2) There's nothing in the article that states that the quashed points stopped anybody from getting a ban. It could have been people's first points, fourth points or tenth set of points - we don't have the information to know.

But go ahead and leap to conclusions if it suits your agenda :rolleyes:

Death and Taxes · 29-11-2012 11:21AM

blackwhite wrote: »

Some pretty big leaps of logic there.
1) As a number of people have pointed out already, the article only states that they were involved in fatal accidents, not that they caused them. No way to know that without further details.
2) There's nothing in the article that states that the quashed points stopped anybody from getting a ban. It could have been people's first points, fourth points or tenth set of points - we don't have the information to know.

But go ahead and leap to conclusions if it suits your agenda :rolleyes:

It doesnt matter if they were there first points or if they were the points that would have caused a ban.
It is the fact that 50,000 people hace had them quashed, a story based on a whistleblower which might indicate that it was done corruptly.
PS. 50,000 quashed penalty point offences could be a loss of revenue of €4,000,000

Cianos · 29-11-2012 11:32AM

seamus wrote: »

Not being contrary or dismissive of it. Simply making the observation that a story about relatively low-level corruption being national news is actually a good thing on two points:

1. It means that the population are less accepting of these small corruptions. In times gone by, it was taken for granted that if you knew a garda then you could have speeding fines and drink driving charges quietly dropped. If you put that in the paper, people would say, "Well, no **** sherlock". Now it's considered abhorrent enough to be worth printing. That's a good thing.

2. At least one Garda has no problem breaking ranks in order to try and do the right thing. This kind of behaviour has been on the increase in recent years with young Gardai arresting senior Gardai for minor things like speeding and drink-driving, and this report is just another welcome example that things are constantly getting better in the force.

I agree with your logic, but the same line of thinking could be applied to any situation ie "as bad as things are, they could be worse". Sure, but the only thing that that encourages is more pacifism really. I know it's simplifying it somewhat, but so was your op in the thread

blackwhite · 29-11-2012 12:28PM

WileyCoyote wrote: »

It doesnt matter if they were there first points or if they were the points that would have caused a ban.
It is the fact that 50,000 people hace had them quashed, a story based on a whistleblower which might indicate that it was done corruptly.
PS. 50,000 quashed penalty point offences could be a loss of revenue of €4,000,000

Read the post I replied to (and quoted). The poster stated that the people involved in the fatal accidents shouldn't have been on the road. There's nothing in the information that we have that backs up his point.

It's clear that all you (as evidenced by your sig.), and quite a few others on this thread, are interested in is leaping to conclusions to back up your garda-bashing agenda

steddyeddy · 29-11-2012 12:28PM

seamus wrote: »

I think if quashing penalty points is the worst form of corruption that the media can find in the Gardai, then we're not in a bad place at all.

Well we dont have to look farther for worse I'm afraid

snubbleste · 29-11-2012 12:40PM

Doesn't really surprise me tbh
Indo - Soccer star's drink-driving case papers go missing

Death and Taxes · 29-11-2012 01:35PM

blackwhite wrote: »

Read the post I replied to (and quoted). The poster stated that the people involved in the fatal accidents shouldn't have been on the road. There's nothing in the information that we have that backs up his point.

It's clear that all you (as evidenced by your sig.), and quite a few others on this thread, are interested in is leaping to conclusions to back up your garda-bashing agenda

Actually all I'm interested in is seeing that justice and the law are applied equally to all, something that is sadly lacking in this country, partially because we have such an unprofessional and corrupt police force, as was evidenced in the Tribunal into their Behaviour in Donegal, The Molloy affair(no pun), the way they helped cover up child abuse in the past, the numerous cases which have appeared in this forum of gardai being caught lying in court and walking free without penalty etc.
So called minor corruption always and ever leads to greater and more serious corruption, as we have seen in politics and banking in this country.

wnolan1992 · 29-11-2012 01:56PM

There was a time when the police in this country were friends of The Church RTE. Parking fines torn up, drunk driving charges quashed, even the blind eye turned to the odd murder....

Death and Taxes · 29-11-2012 01:57PM

wnolan1992 wrote: »

There was a time when the police in this country were friends of The Church RTE. Parking fines torn up, drunk driving charges quashed, even the blind eye turned to the odd murder....

hat time is still with us:mad:

runawaybishop · 29-11-2012 02:33PM

Dicky Pride wrote: »

Guards in this country, for the most part, do not do a good job and most of them are arrogant, ignorant and on a 40 year long power trip.

How many times have you heard the words "Where are the guards when you really need them"?

I've never heard them personally. The rest of your post sounds like bullocks though.

MagicSean · 29-11-2012 02:51PM

WileyCoyote wrote: »

Actually all I'm interested in is seeing that justice and the law are applied equally to all, something that is sadly lacking in this country, partially because we have such an unprofessional and corrupt police force, as was evidenced in the Tribunal into their Behaviour in Donegal, The Molloy affair(no pun), the way they helped cover up child abuse in the past, the numerous cases which have appeared in this forum of gardai being caught lying in court and walking free without penalty etc.
So called minor corruption always and ever leads to greater and more serious corruption, as we have seen in politics and banking in this country.

Your post history would show you have serious contemp for the whole organisation and those who work for it. Don't come on here posting how you just want justice and law applied equally. At least admit you're coming here with your own agenda.

You say we have an unprofessional and corrupt police force and you evidence it with reference to a tribunal based on an incident 16 years ago after which massive change was brought to the organisation. The pieces of the article you quoted were only the ones that supported your viewpoint and your heading for the title is incorrect. No doubt in your glee to post about it you didn't stop to think that the article might be completely wrong. I'll happily listen to you bring up stuff from over a decade ago to prove corruption because if that, along with a shoddily researched article on trafic tickets, is the best you can do it shows the organisation has indeed improved greatly.

Death and Taxes · 29-11-2012 03:09PM

MagicSean wrote: »

Your post history would show you have serious contemp for the whole organisation and those who work for it. Don't come on here posting how you just want justice and law applied equally. At least admit you're coming here with your own agenda.

You say we have an unprofessional and corrupt police force and you evidence it with reference to a tribunal based on an incident 16 years ago after which massive change was brought to the organisation. The pieces of the article you quoted were only the ones that supported your viewpoint and your heading for the title is incorrect. No doubt in your glee to post about it you didn't stop to think that the article might be completely wrong. I'll happily listen to you bring up stuff from over a decade ago to prove corruption because if that, along with a shoddily researched article on trafic tickets, is the best you can do it shows the organisation has indeed improved greatly.

I will come on here as and when I want and post in accordance with the rules of the site, and I wont be bullied by anyone from doing so.
The Gardai are unprofessional, they are suffering from corruption ad do abuse the powers they have.
take the case of the two guards who assaulted a man and broke his camera outside the cat and cage in Drimcondra because he was filming them, they were convicted after the judge told them they were wrong in their presumption that they had the power to order citizens not to film them, or the copper in Limerick who broke a mans arm and then wrongfully prosecuted him, a case in which the judge said he was appalled by the Gardas behaviour (not to mention his and a collegues clearly false evidence), those gardai along with Sargent Martha McEnrey who assaulted a man while he was being held on the ground recieved a conviction for assault and a suspended sentence, where is she now? Still a member of AGS thats where she is, as is the Garda in Dublin who assaulted two female collegues in the house they shared.Last week a man recieved over €200,000 in compensation from this state for assault by an off duty guard who then wrongfully imprisoned him and maliously prosecuted him, where is that guard now, still in AGS of course.
They are just a few examples of the badly trained unprofessional police force that this country is lumbered with, so yes I say they are unprofessional and corrupt and I dont just rely on evidence of what they did in Donegal, I rely on evidence that is routinely reported every week in this country.

Boombastic · 29-11-2012 03:11PM

didn't i tell ye the 'free coffee for protection racket' was only the tip of the iceberg...

MagicSean · 29-11-2012 03:19PM

WileyCoyote wrote: »

I will come on here as and when I want and post in accordance with the rules of the site, and I wont be bullied by anyone from doing so.
The Gardai are unprofessional, they are suffering from corruption ad do abuse the powers they have.
take the case of the two guards who assaulted a man and broke his camera outside the cat and cage in Drimcondra because he was filming them, they were convicted after the judge told them they were wrong in their presumption that they had the power to order citizens not to film them, or the copper in Limerick who broke a mans arm and then wrongfully prosecuted him, a case in which the judge said he was appalled by the Gardas behaviour (not to mention his and a collegues clearly false evidence), those gardai along with Sargent Martha McEnrey who assaulted a man while he was being held on the ground recieved a conviction for assault and a suspended sentence, where is she now? Still a member of AGS thats where she is, as is the Garda in Dublin who assaulted two female collegues in the house they shared.Last week a man recieved over €200,000 in compensation from this state for assault by an off duty guard who then wrongfully imprisoned him and maliously prosecuted him, where is that guard now, still in AGS of course.
They are just a few examples of the badly trained unprofessional police force that this country is lumbered with, so yes I say they are unprofessional and corrupt and I dont just rely on evidence of what they did in Donegal, I rely on evidence that is routinely reported every week in this country.

I find it interesting that you refer to incidents where the Gardaí involved have been investigated, prosecuted and subject to disciplinary action. So where is the corruption and unprofessionalism? All you can do is pick out a few bad apples who have been held to account for their actions.

pitythefool · 29-11-2012 03:22PM

WileyCoyote wrote: »

I will come on here as and when I want and post in accordance with the rules of the site, and I wont be bullied by anyone from doing so.
The Gardai are unprofessional, they are suffering from corruption ad do abuse the powers they have.
take the case of the two guards who assaulted a man and broke his camera outside the cat and cage in Drimcondra because he was filming them, they were convicted after the judge told them they were wrong in their presumption that they had the power to order citizens not to film them, or the copper in Limerick who broke a mans arm and then wrongfully prosecuted him, a case in which the judge said he was appalled by the Gardas behaviour (not to mention his and a collegues clearly false evidence), those gardai along with Sargent Martha McEnrey who assaulted a man while he was being held on the ground recieved a conviction for assault and a suspended sentence, where is she now? Still a member of AGS thats where she is, as is the Garda in Dublin who assaulted two female collegues in the house they shared.Last week a man recieved over €200,000 in compensation from this state for assault by an off duty guard who then wrongfully imprisoned him and maliously prosecuted him, where is that guard now, still in AGS of course.
They are just a few examples of the badly trained unprofessional police force that this country is lumbered with, so yes I say they are unprofessional and corrupt and I dont just rely on evidence of what they did in Donegal, I rely on evidence that is routinely reported every week in this country.

Many Gaurds do alot of good work, but i find it odd that no Gaurd in the histry of the state has ever been sent to prison

What about the Gaurd who farted on a citezen, might be remembering that wrong but heard it before

Heres another two
http://bocktherobber.com/2006/03/gardai-deny-farting-at-suspect/

http://bocktherobber.com/2006/10/do-you-know-your-daddys-a-murderer/

Kinzig · 29-11-2012 03:23PM

Myself and a friend watched two garda take an unconscious drunk out of his car, place him in the back of the patrol car and run him home because he was a local businessman...I could recount dozens of these stories over the years right up to a local businessman who walked away from a drunken driving charge recently , that type of stuff was commonplace in Donegal over the years...its down to the fact that our boys rely on so much local intel theres lots of backscratching going on.

Death and Taxes · 29-11-2012 03:28PM

MagicSean wrote: »

I find it interesting that you refer to incidents where the Gardaí involved have been investigated, prosecuted and subject to disciplinary action. So where is the corruption and unprofessionalism? All you can do is pick out a few bad apples who have been held to account for their actions.

Still serving bad apples, real professional that keeping thugs and liars in the force.
I picked the first few that came to mind, lots more just like them.
Now we have a whistleblower telling us, and it was raised in the Dail on Tuesday, that over 50,000 fixed penalty notices had been interfered with ("interfered with" is the term used in the Dail).
Perhaps you are one of the few that remain highly professional, I certainly have no reason to believe otherwise, however even if you are, you must see how the first pillar of society that should have a zero tolerance approach to lawbreaking, abuse of power, and corruption must be the institution charged with enforcing the law.

crusher000 · 29-11-2012 03:29PM

Take the words two judges and rte presenter out of the article and what do you have ? Shag all. I'm sure some people on boards have at one time or other approached a Garda they may know and ask them "How to I get of a speeding fine ?" I haven't the car taxed for two months can you sign the form ? this doesn't make them corrupt just friendly. If they took money for said favors now that's corrupt. Don't envy them their job.

Death and Taxes · 29-11-2012 03:30PM

pitythefool wrote: »

Many Gaurds do alot of good work, but i find it odd that no Gaurd in the histry of the state has ever been sent to prison

What about the Gaurd who farted on a citezen, might be remembering that wrong but heard it before

Heres another one
http://bocktherobber.com/2006/03/gardai-deny-farting-at-suspect/

In fairness some have ended up in Jail, I can think of one for child porn and attempting to procure a minor for sex, and another for insurance fraud. Unfortunatley the Commissioner allowed them to resign and protect their pensions etc instead of sacking them for gross misconduct.

later12 · 29-11-2012 03:31PM

MagicSean wrote: »

I find it interesting that you refer to incidents where the Gardaí involved have been investigated, prosecuted and subject to disciplinary action.

Of course, if one of us say we know of further, un-prosecuted corruption by the Gardai (and personally speaking I would have an example in mind) the answer, quite rightly, would be 'there's no evidence for that'. All anyone can reasonably refer to and discuss are proven cases, including cases whereby the truth was only extracted at great expense and difficulty.

runawaybishop · 29-11-2012 03:31PM

crusher000 wrote: »

Take the words two judges and rte presenter out of the article and what do you have ? Shag all. I'm sure some people on boards have at one time or other approached a Garda they may know and ask them "How to I get of a speeding fine ?" I haven't the car taxed for two months can you sign the form ? this doesn't make them corrupt just friendly. If they took money for said favors now that's corrupt. Don't envy them their job.

No, that makes them corrupt. Removing penalty points for legitimate reasons doesn't make them corrupt though.

crusher000 · 29-11-2012 03:35PM

So what you want is Robocops ? We will up hold the law for all. Thankfully your all such law abiding citizens on here. If the country were full of people that are on boards we wouldn't need the Gardai.

Death and Taxes · 29-11-2012 03:38PM

crusher000 wrote: »

So what you want is Robocops ? We will up hold the law for all. Thankfully your all such law abiding citizens on here. If the country were full of people that are on boards we wouldn't need the Gardai.

Whats so wrong about wanting the law upheld equally for all? Why would anyone have a problem with that?

pitythefool · 29-11-2012 03:40PM

WileyCoyote wrote: »

In fairness some have ended up in Jail, I can think of one for child porn and attempting to procure a minor for sex, and another for insurance fraud. Unfortunatley the Commissioner allowed them to resign and protect their pensions etc instead of sacking them for gross misconduct.

No active Guard then

Garda wiped driving slate for two judges and RTE presenter

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