Abortion/ Note Thread Closing Shortly! ! !

johnny_ultimate · 23-11-2012 07:23PM

Just got that unsolicited and automated pro-life call that's been doing the rounds. Absolutely disgusted that anyone can get away with that, TBH. What a cheap, cynical tactic, and hopefully whoever is responsible will be ousted and mocked accordingly

Lingua Franca · 23-11-2012 07:31PM

At dinner time? I don't think automated unsolicited calls, especially at dinnertime, are going to be winning them any new friends.

donspeekinglesh · 23-11-2012 07:33PM

We got it about half an hour ago too.
Made a complaint to the DPC, not that I expect it'll help much.

Morag · 23-11-2012 07:44PM

Please email info@comreg.ie with the timeof the call and the number if you have it.
They are collating and investigating.

donspeekinglesh · 23-11-2012 08:42PM

Done.
Oddly our phone has the completely wrong date/time for the call in the log even though it's set correct in the phone. Maybe just a coincidence.

Kiwi in IE · 23-11-2012 09:06PM

Bannasidhe wrote: »

'You can check out anytime you like, but you can never leave.'

Seriously? They don't let you 'leave'? Is this so they can give an inaccurate account of how many people are Catholic or something? I don't see how they can refuse to take you off whatever register they have. I know the RCC has an extreme distaste for personal freedom but this is bizarre. Do you have to do all the rituals (batism, commuion and confirmation) to be on the 'register,' or is just baptism enough?

Kiwi in IE · 23-11-2012 09:20PM

Peregrinus wrote: »

Won't help, I'm afraid. Getting yourself excommunicated does not mean that you cease to be a Catholic.

Surely it is a person's own choice whether or not they are Catholic? I was Christened Greek Orthodox for the sake of my grandmother who is Greek. Have never been inside a Greek Orthodox church since (apart from as a tourist in Greece), and certainly don't put Greek Orthodox when asked my religion on forms. That is not my religion. I don't have a religion, and whether or not one does is a personal choice.

I struggle to understand this phenomena where 90ish% of people in Ireland put RCC when asked their religion on official forms. Surely the majority of those are not practising, or have ceased to believe the teachings of the RCC (which probably happened about the same time they ceased to believe in Santa, the Easter Bunny and the Tooth Fairy).

kylith · 24-11-2012 01:23AM

Kiwi in IE wrote: »

Seriously? They don't let you 'leave'? Is this so they can give an inaccurate account of how many people are Catholic or something? I don't see how they can refuse to take you off whatever register they have. I know the RCC has an extreme distaste for personal freedom but this is bizarre. Do you have to do all the rituals (batism, commuion and confirmation) to be on the 'register,' or is just baptism enough?

The way they work it is to say that they won't/can't remove your from the baptismal register because it's a record of a historical event, and there's no way to go back in time and make you not baptised. However they then count the number of Catholics by tallying how many people have been baptised, rather than how many actually turn up in church on a Sunday.

Hotblack Desiato · 24-11-2012 03:18AM

Sharrow wrote: »

Please email info@comreg.ie with the timeof the call and the number if you have it.
They are collating and investigating.

Potential 5000 euro fine per call.
Hit 'em where it hurts!

robindch · 24-11-2012 02:42PM

Here's an account of Savita's last week, according to her family and friends:

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/ireland/2012/1124/1224327042133.html

pauldla · 24-11-2012 06:21PM

robindch wrote: »

Here's an account of Savita's last week, according to her family and friends:

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/ireland/2012/1124/1224327042133.html

That's absolutely heartbreaking.

recedite · 24-11-2012 07:14PM

robindch wrote: »

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/ireland/2012/1124/1224327042133.html

I hadn't heard of that new antibiotic resistant strain of E Coli before.
It will almost certainly feature in the hospital's defence, as to why they originally thought the situation was not life threatening. Really though, even infection with a non resistant strain of bacteria in her weakened condition was serious risk.

Slightly off-topic, but there is a reason that chicken imported from outside the EU has been gradually replacing the Irish product over the last few years. It costs half the price because the chickens are reared in unsanitary conditions, fed growth promoters, and mass dosed with antibiotics to keep them alive. Doctors are very careful about prescribing antibiotics in humans, to avoid resistant strains developing, yet in some countries farm animals are fed them as part of their normal diet.

Obliq · 24-11-2012 07:58PM

http://europeanprochoicenetwork.wordpress.com/2012/11/23/luxemburg-has-adopted-abortion-on-request/

"Thursday, 22 november, the Parliament of Luxemburg has voted 39 : 21 to change its abortion law of 1978. Women now have the right, within the first 12 weeks, to decide for themselves whether or not to terminate an unwanted pregnancy."

Sorry, butting in with new subject, don't mind me:-). The content of the link in comments above is too awful to read again. No can do.

Turtwig · 24-11-2012 08:52PM

recedite wrote: »

Slightly off-topic, but there is a reason that chicken imported from outside the EU has been gradually replacing the Irish product over the last few years. It costs half the price because the chickens are reared in unsanitary conditions, fed growth promoters, and mass dosed with antibiotics to keep them alive. Doctors are very careful about prescribing antibiotics in humans, to avoid resistant strains developing, yet in some countries farm animals are fed them as part of their normal diet.

Can't find it, but a few years ago Nature did an article on this about US based farmers and and it utterly horrified me. Pigs in particular were being vaccinated with every vaccine imaginable. Some of which were barely tested (or approved). Then there was antibiotics at even the slightest of signs of infection they'd be mass dosed. It's horrific ****. Almost makes you want to consider vegetarianism.Still a proud meat eater though.

Obliq · 25-11-2012 12:00PM

"Let's talk about shame for a minute, Enda. I believe you think abortion is a shame. I do too. I'd love to live in a society where every woman who conceived would be given the nurturing - you might call it the social mothering - she'd need to transform an unwanted pregnancy into a happy birth and a cared-for child.

Yes, I'd love that, just like I'd love world peace, universal riches and a home for every person on our streets. Abortion happens because we, men and women, are human and flawed. We might think it a shame - but if it is, it's a social shame, like war or poverty or homelessness, a shared shame, not an individual one.

There is no shame in being a woman who knows that life is too much for her right now to be able to give birth, to carry and bear and raise another life through all the years of parenting it takes a bring a human child to adulthood. There is no more shame in needing an abortion than there is shame in being a soldier, or in being poor, or homeless.

This shame, and its bullying big brother, silence, has kept the truth about Irish abortion concealed. For whatever our opinion about it, none of us can deny that it happens, has always happened, will go on happening, whatever laws are there - or not there. Women have abortions. Irish women have abortions. Irish Roman Catholic women have abortions. Hell, even Irish, Roman Catholic, anti-abortion women have abortions."

Orna Ross
http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/orna...b_2174972.html

nagirrac · 25-11-2012 12:02PM

Interesting that people are using the term "defense" already as if the medical staff in Galway were already in court. Note to amateur lawyers.. first provide some evidence that will stand up in court, anywhere. Anyone with a brain that has loooked at the testemony in the public domain so far would conclude that the unfortunate patient presented with an E.Coil infection that was not diagnosed and treated quickly enough. Anything beyond that in terms of what should have been done is purely speculation.

Lingua Franca · 25-11-2012 12:25PM

nagirrac wrote: »

Note to amateur lawyers.. first provide some evidence that will stand up in court, anywhere. Anyone with a brain that has loooked at the testemony in the public domain so far would conclude that the unfortunate patient presented with an E.Coil infection that was not diagnosed and treated quickly enough.

Did she? I thought she presented with a miscarriage. I guess I have no brain.

drkpower · 25-11-2012 12:33PM

nagirrac wrote: »

Anyone with a brain that has loooked at the testemony in the public domain so far would conclude that the unfortunate patient presented with an E.Coil infection that was not diagnosed and treated quickly enough. Anything beyond that in terms of what should have been done is purely speculation.

Yes, she had an E.Coli infection. But when that was contracted, when it was known that she had contracted it, and when should it have been known, is at the moment very much open to speculation.

recedite · 25-11-2012 06:35PM

Also, it is normal for all of us to carry E coli in the gut, and Streptococci in the throat, and these do no particular harm until some trauma or other circumstance compromises or overloads the immune system.

lazygal · 25-11-2012 08:12PM

recedite wrote: »

Also, it is normal for all of us to carry E coli in the gut, and Streptococci in the throat, and these do no particular harm until some trauma or other circumstance compromises or overloads the immune system.

Its also the case that a woman's immune system is compromised during pregnancy. Things that I'd have been able to shake off easily were a lot more troublesome when I was pregnant. There's also the fact that you won't be given certain antibiotics in pregnancy which may or may not have been a factor.

Nodin · 25-11-2012 09:26PM

lazygal wrote: »

Its also the case that a woman's immune system is compromised during pregnancy. Things that I'd have been able to shake off easily were a lot more troublesome when I was pregnant. There's also the fact that you won't be given certain antibiotics in pregnancy which may or may not have been a factor.

Theres also the question of pain relief. She's been frequently referred to as having been "in agony". Was she being kept from adequate pain relief because of the pregnancy (which at that stage was doomed)?

Morag · 25-11-2012 10:32PM

Nodin wrote: »

Theres also the question of pain relief. She's been frequently referred to as having been "in agony". Was she being kept from adequate pain relief because of the pregnancy (which at that stage was doomed)?

Yes. The only pain relief which you can have while pregnant is pretty much Paracetamol. Anything else can have an adverse effect on the fetus/baby.
Found that out when I injured by back at 6 months and had to go 3 months with nothing able to take anything to help with the pain.

When you are in labour certain drugs are used, cos your not going to be on them for long.

drkpower · 25-11-2012 10:54PM

Nodin wrote: »

Theres also the question of pain relief. She's been frequently referred to as having been "in agony". Was she being kept from adequate pain relief because of the pregnancy (which at that stage was doomed)?

In fairness, that's unlikely. Whatever about the legal position on abortion (and its possible relevance to this case), there is no legal impediment to giving fairly serious analgesia to a pregnant woman.

Nodin · 25-11-2012 11:04PM

drkpower wrote: »

In fairness, that's unlikely. Whatever about the legal position on abortion (and its possible relevance to this case), there is no legal impediment to giving fairly serious analgesia to a pregnant woman.

...it just struck me as odd that she was described as being in great pain....however, hopefully you're correct.

Morag · 26-11-2012 01:51AM

drkpower wrote: »

In fairness, that's unlikely. Whatever about the legal position on abortion (and its possible relevance to this case), there is no legal impediment to giving fairly serious analgesia to a pregnant woman.

Really?
Cos if it causes the pregnancy to end rather then letting the miscarriage happen 'naturally' then it can reconsidered to be a medical abortion.

You can't medicate a pregnant woman with out medicating the fetus/baby inside her.

pauldla · 26-11-2012 10:06AM

From today's Irish Times

Abortion amendment has been disaster and must go

Obliq · 26-11-2012 10:37AM

pauldla wrote: »

From today's Irish Times

Abortion amendment has been disaster and must go

What the Catholic bishops thought about our women's decision making processes in 1983:
"The Catholic bishop Joseph Cassidy said in the full confidence of his moral authority that the most dangerous place for a child to be in the world was in a woman’s womb."

drkpower · 26-11-2012 10:53AM

Sharrow wrote: »

Really?
Cos if it causes the pregnancy to end rather then letting the miscarriage happen 'naturally' then it can reconsidered to be a medical abortion.

You can't medicate a pregnant woman with out medicating the fetus/baby inside her.

I'm not aware of any analgesia which has the inevitable result of termination/miscarriage. It may be a risk of certain medications, but taking medication/drugs that may cause a miscarriage is fully lawful.

Obliq · 26-11-2012 11:00AM

drkpower wrote: »

I'm not aware of any analgesia which has the inevitable result of termination/miscarriage. It may be a risk of certain medications, but taking medication/drugs that may cause a miscarriage is fully lawful.

Are there any analgesia which are strong enough AND safe enough to give a woman over three days of dilation of cervix?? TBH, that's exactly what they use epidurals for - no other pain relief is going to hold back the agony. I have had two children with no pain relief except gas, so I don't know, but I can't say I've heard of an analgesia that can be safely used for that length of time.

drkpower · 26-11-2012 11:17AM

Obliq wrote: »

Are there any analgesia which are strong enough AND safe enough to give a woman over three days of dilation of cervix?? TBH, that's exactly what they use epidurals for - no other pain relief is going to hold back the agony. I have had two children with no pain relief except gas, so I don't know, but I can't say I've heard of an analgesia that can be safely used for that length of time.

It depends on what you mean 'safe'. During a normal pregnancy, women - and doctors - wont want to take any chances, and will accordingly not give any analgesia (at least not for any more time than is required). But the key thing to remember is that the reason for withholding/denying oneself such analgesia is not the legal position.

In the case of an inevitable miscarriage, the woman - and doctors - 'safety' is no longer an issue. The baby is dead/dying so the urge not to take any chances no longer exists. And, as i said, there is no legal impediment to taking any analgesia any time in pregnancy (assuming there is no intent to procure an abortion by so doing - and i dont think any analgesia has a side effect profile that includes an inevitable miscarriage).

Abortion/ *Note* Thread Closing Shortly! ! !

Comments

Abortion/ Note Thread Closing Shortly! ! !