Leaf price drop - game changer?

18-11-2012 05:14PM

Bigus wrote: »

Back on topic , I think Renault leasing batteries is a joke and wil absolutely kill resale in Ireland and they should think again.
Who's going to enforce collection of leasing charges when car is sold on ?

The Leaf costs 25,500 atm, and the Zoe will cost €16,500 that's €9 k in the difference.

For someone on the basic rental of 70 Euro's per month for 8000 miles or so that's 10.5 years to make up the difference. So why pay more if you don't need to ?

For me that would be 160 PM or 4.5 years to make up the difference.

Now If you are selling your car you sell it as normal and they buyer has to go to Renault to take a new lease on the same battery, remember if the battery has 75% capacity or greater it's deemed good by Renault and Nissan.

So it's swings and roundabouts again really, it means the initial cost is reduced on purchase.

leaf owners will sell the car and a report will be given out on battery condition and again it will have 75%or greater capacity remaining.

The only thing that worries me is that Dealers would leave the car sit on charge or near 100% charge for a long time hoping the potential buyer will get into the car and see at least 60 miles remaining where otherwise might be put off by seeing 40 miles remaining with it being 65 % charged.

Sesshoumaru · 19-11-2012 12:44PM

MMAGirl wrote: »

I think i'll wait til we see what resale value is going to be like.
In my book shorter range over time is going to hugely effect resale value. It seriously reduces your pool of potential buyers.

You're still thinking of a battery pack as though it were a disposable Duracell, something you have to pay to dispose of like it was worthless. The CEO of Nissan and Renault says these battery packs will have a second life beyond their first life in an EV. To me this makes perfect sense, even at reduced capacity these packs can hold a lot of power.

My plan is to install it in my home and let it charge during night on half price night rate electricity. Then during the day, run my house on cheap night rate electricity. This is already possible without even removing the battery from the car.

http://www.nissan-global.com/EN/NEWS/2012/_STORY/120530-01-e.html

Nissan to launch LEAF to Home power system at its dealerships in Japan in mid-June
Nissan, Nichicon collaborate to achieve the world's first power supply system that provides electricity from the Nissan LEAF's high-capacity batteries to houses

I still don't know where you are getting your information from? I'm a Leaf owner in Ireland with over 37,000 kilometers on the clock and no battery degradation. I'm also telling you I know over 30 other Leaf owners in Ireland and no one has experienced any battery degradation so far. What has you so worried?

Sesshoumaru · 19-11-2012 12:52PM

Deleted User wrote:

The fast charging network around Dublin may be good but it's extremely poor over most of the Island.

I took my family to Cork for a weekend away over summer, no problem to get from Cork to Dublin. The hotel we stayed in also had a charger for us to use. We've also gone to Galway a few times without issue. We've also visited Northern Ireland in our Leaf and had no issue using the chargers there, our ESB smart cards can be used on chargers in Northern Ireland. Just think, shopping at UK prices without having to factor in fuel costs on top of it

Nothern Ireland chargers are still free as well.

There are currently 30-ish FCP's in Ireland and over 2013 an additional 60 will be installed. At least that's what I've heard from the ESB

19-11-2012 01:21PM

Sesshoumaru wrote: »

I took my family to Cork for a weekend away over summer, no problem to get from Cork to Dublin. The hotel we stayed in also had a charger for us to use. We've also gone to Galway a few times without issue. We've also visited Northern Ireland in our Leaf and had no issue using the chargers there, our ESB smart cards can be used on chargers in Northern Ireland. Just think, shopping at UK prices without having to factor in fuel costs on top of it Nothern Ireland chargers are still free as well.

There are currently 30-ish FCP's in Ireland and over 2013 an additional 60 will be installed. At least that's what I've heard from the ESB

Did you make that on one charge and at what speed ?

DO you really think they are going to cintinue to install different types of chargers especially if the DC cost so much more than the a/c ?

In relation to you using your battery as storage, that all sounds good, but you would save a lot more money trading it for a new battery.

There would still be several thousands of euro's worth in the battery, enough for probably 10 years worth of electricity, your biggest consuminging device would be the Leaf which you will be charging at night time anyway so you will at most save only half on your leccy bills. Not needing a battery.

The only real advantage is that you could top up during the day if you are at home, or install solar panels and that way you can use the battery at night when you get home, but to be honest you would send to the grid in the day your excess solar and import at night costing you nothing, so the esb would be your big cheap battery.

I still think the biggest saving would be to trade it in for a new one if that's what Nissan will do, or sell the car and buy a new one.

unkel · 19-11-2012 01:38PM

Deleted User wrote: »

Did you make that on one charge

It's over 150 miles from Dublin to Cork. Even the "official" range of the Leaf is only a bit over 100 miles. He'd have to drive very slowly to even make it to Cork in two charges

I wonder how long it took in total, 4 hours? (takes me about 2 hours to drive down to Cork in my petrol engined car

)

Sesshoumaru · 19-11-2012 01:57PM

unkel wrote: »

It's over 150 miles from Dublin to Cork. Even the "official" range of the Leaf is only a bit over 100 miles. He'd have to drive very slowly to even make it to Cork in two charges

I wonder how long it took in total, 4 hours? (takes me about 2 hours to drive down to Cork in my petrol engined car )

Going towards Cork we stopped at Monasterevin and Cashel and on the way back we stopped at Cashel only. Going towards Cork I kept the cruise control at 95kph and coming back I kept it around 95kph to 100kph.

I think it was roughly 4.5 hours for the trip to Cork and just under 4 hours on the way back. On the plus side refilling in Cashel/Monasterevin was free as was filling up in the hotel free and they reserved the refilling space for me which was right at the entrance

Also the facilities at Monasterevin and Cashel were quite good.

Sesshoumaru · 19-11-2012 02:02PM

Deleted User wrote: »

Did you make that on one charge and at what speed ?

DO you really think they are going to cintinue to install different types of chargers especially if the DC cost so much more than the a/c ?

In relation to you using your battery as storage, that all sounds good, but you would save a lot more money trading it for a new battery.

There would still be several thousands of euro's worth in the battery, enough for probably 10 years worth of electricity, your biggest consuminging device would be the Leaf which you will be charging at night time anyway so you will at most save only half on your leccy bills. Not needing a battery.

The only real advantage is that you could top up during the day if you are at home, or install solar panels and that way you can use the battery at night when you get home, but to be honest you would send to the grid in the day your excess solar and import at night costing you nothing, so the esb would be your big cheap battery.

I still think the biggest saving would be to trade it in for a new one if that's what Nissan will do, or sell the car and buy a new one.

The price of DC chargers has halved since the Leaf was released.

I'm open to all possibilities with the battery. May main point is that they are valuable even when they have reduced total capacity. Besides that, even with a reduction in range it would make a great second car which is guaranteed to be low maintenance and always in the lowest motor tax bracket (for the foreseeable future anyway). Our insurance on the Leaf is also very cheap. I don't foresee much expense to keep it on the road as a second car with secondary light usage.

Sesshoumaru · 19-11-2012 02:05PM

http://www.nextgreencar.com/news-item.php?Nissan-installs-DC-chargers-across-Europe

Nissan's Quick Charger is a Direct Current design that conforms to the ChAdeMO charging standard. It has been designed and engineered by Nissan to be smaller and cheaper than existing units and is fully approved to assist widespread installation. This charger can be made compatible with Renault's AC 43kW fast charging system, and both systems will be offered together for future network expansion.

krissovo · 19-11-2012 02:17PM

I am sold;)

Looked before the summer to get one of these but the risk was too much to accept. At €25k I will probably take a gamble as the car makes sense at current comparative rates for our needs.

It will be a 2nd car doing a daily commute of around 60 miles, a bit of a gamble with 30 miles on motor ways in the winter. Hopefully the office are going to install chargers soon that will limit the risk.

Also Every service station I have been to in the past month has a ICE car sat in the EV car charging spot. I was in Cashel on Friday for an hour and the two charging spots were both taken.

Sesshoumaru · 19-11-2012 02:28PM

krissovo wrote: »

I am sold;)

Looked before the summer to get one of these but the risk was too much to accept. At €25k I will probably take a gamble as the car makes sense at current comparative rates for our needs.

It will be a 2nd car doing a daily commute of around 60 miles, a bit of a gamble with 30 miles on motor ways in the winter. Hopefully the office are going to install chargers soon that will limit the risk.

Also Every service station I have been to in the past month has a ICE car sat in the EV car charging spot. I was in Cashel on Friday for an hour and the two charging spots were both taken.

The original model home charger (what I have at home) that the ESB were rolling out last year, they still have some of those and I think they will sell it to you for €500 or €600. What I mean is, for your work place. You'll get a charger at home for free of course. Your company might get a little bit of green PR from installing one and consider covering the cost themselves out of their marketing budget? This is the exact model charger the ESB are rolling out to hotels across Ireland. Just an idea

Depending on where you work, the ESB might be interested in putting a public charger near your workplace if it was in area suitable for one. Besides that, I think 100 kilometers is quite doable over winter. Preheating in the morning takes the bite out of the heating systems energy usage in the morning.

19-11-2012 02:31PM

krissovo wrote: »

I am sold;)

.

I would wait at least until the 2013 model year starts production as there are rumoured to be improvements on the way.

I think they are supposed to install the heap pump, the same as in the Zoe, and induction charging and maybe a few other improvements.

It's also said to be cheaper once they start making it in the U.K in 2013. But they would b e better off putting in a few extra kw/hrs of battery and keep the price the same.

Nissan seem to think the range is perfect, and they don't need to improve it, mainly because it meets the needs of the people who buy it.

Still the heat pump should help with a few extra miles. Especially in out milder climate.

19-11-2012 02:50PM

I'm not sure Nissan will ever fully replace a battery, I think they will only ever replace modules, as there has only being mention to that in relation to recycling. They will make large packs out of the spent modules.

AFAIK Nissan will only keep a Leaf's battery at 75% + capacity

unkel · 19-11-2012 02:58PM

krissovo wrote: »

doing a daily commute of around 60 miles, a bit of a gamble with 30 miles on motor ways in the winter.

You'll be fine. In a real world test (in the US) the worst range figure for the Leaf was about 47 miles. In hot weather (aircon on) and lots of start / stop heavy traffic

With the aircon off and a bit of motorway traffic, you should easily make your 60 mile commute. Unless of course there's an accident / traffic jam / any other stoppage. Only saying. Welcome to the range anxiety

:pac:

Sesshoumaru · 19-11-2012 03:10PM

There are various reports/rumours on the internet about the 2013 Leaf. It seems definite that it will have a more efficient heater and a faster on-board charger for quicker home charging.

http://www.greencarreports.com/news/1078529_2013-nissan-leaf-more-range-cheaper-model-report-says

The 2013 Nissan Leaf that will go on sale in January will be a slightly different car from the 2011 and 2012 models sold in the U.S. so far.

We already know the electric car will offer leather seats and a 6.6-kilowatt charger as options, along with a more efficient heating system.

Now a report from Japan suggests that Nissan will offer a 2013 Leaf with longer range, as well as a lower-cost model with a smaller battery pack (which could be restricted to sales in that country).

The improvement in usable range is attributed to improved performance from the battery's lithium-ion cells and a more efficient electric motor.

Today's Leaf is rated by the EPA at 73 miles of range. Owners report usable range of 60 to 90 miles in real-world use, depending on their speed, the outside temperature, and how much they use air-conditioning and/or heater.

A report in SankeiBiz, a Japanese newspaper, says the new Leaf model will offer more than 250 km (155 miles) of range--though that figure is undoubtedly based on the Japanese test cycle, which produces figures far more optimistic than the U.S. EPA tests do.

The current Leaf is rated on that same Japanese cycle at 200 km (124 miles) of range.

But the 25-percent improvement discussed in the news report could bring the U.S. range rating of the 2013 Nissan Leaf to something like 90 or 91 miles.

I highlighted that last part in the quote. If I was in a position to buy now, I'd probably wait until the new 2013 model arrives or try to negotiate a lower price based on this information.

extremetaz · 19-11-2012 05:54PM

krissovo wrote: »

I am sold;)

good man.

krissovo wrote: »

It will be a 2nd car doing a daily commute of around 60 miles, a bit of a gamble with 30 miles on motor ways in the winter. Hopefully the office are going to install chargers soon that will limit the risk.

no gamble there - very doable on a single charge if you're driving in any way reasonably.

we do 74km x2 daily in ours so we have to charge at each end, but at 50km x2 as youre is, it's readily doable.

krissovo wrote: »

Also Every service station I have been to in the past month has a ICE car sat in the EV car charging spot. I was in Cashel on Friday for an hour and the two charging spots were both taken.

This is changing slowly, but is a problem at the moment alright.

Sesshoumaru wrote: »

If I was in a position to buy now, I'd probably wait until the new 2013 model arrives or try to negotiate a lower price based on this information.

This is sound advice - the 6kw charger and heatpump are well worth waiting for.

If you can get a good discount on the current model then go for it, but frankly, they're like hens teeth here at the moment and Nissan are only able to get a trickle of them into the country to meet demand so I don't see them being in a hurry to drop the price any farther.

WRT the battery degredation, our is going in for it's 30k service in two weeks, I'll report on the battery state then.

Idbatterim · 19-11-2012 06:15PM

are all Ev's automatic and if so why?

Sesshoumaru · 19-11-2012 06:17PM

Idbatterim wrote: »

are all Ev's automatic and if so why?

The Leaf doesn't have multiple gears, so it's not really an automatic - technically.

19-11-2012 07:09PM

Idbatterim wrote: »

are all Ev's automatic and if so why?

Another reason E.V's don't need a gearbox is that they produce nearly 100% torque from 0 and have a broader torque band than an Internal Combustion Engine.

Quote from http://livingleaf.info/2010/11/nissan-leaf-electric-motor-and-transmission/

we now know that the AC synchronous motor can turn a maximum of 10,390 revolutions per minute (RPM). We heard from some other sources as much as 18,000 RPM, but thought that might be on the high side. And most likely, you have heard by now that LEAF does not use a conventional automatic or manual transmission. It uses a single speed reduction gear with a final drive ratio of 7.9377. So what good does that do anyone? Good question. Divide 10,390 by 7.9377. Go ahead… we’ll wait. Come up with 1308.94? Good! So did we.

1308.94 is how fast the tires will rotate when the motor is turning the maximum 10,390 RPM. Why is this important? Because, since we know that the tires are a Bridgestone Ecopia model, size 205/55R16, we know that the tires have a diameter of 24.9″ and will turn 837 revolutions per mile (not per minute). With these givens, at 60 miles per hour these tires will turn 837 RPM. But if the electric motor is turning 10,390 RPM, and the tires are turning at 1308.94 RPM, how fast are we going? Simple… do the math!

1308.94 RPM divided by 837 RPM equals 1.56. So at maximum motor RPM, we are traveling at 1.56 times 60 MPH, or 93.8 MPH. We think that we recall reading that the fastest the LEAF has traveled (at least in road tests that we have seen) has been 94 MPH or 95 MPH, so these calculations are probably fairly accurate

End Quote.

extremetaz · 20-11-2012 11:22AM

Idbatterim wrote: »

are all Ev's automatic and if so why?

1) Yes (for all practical purposes).

2) They don't need one. Simples.

Yawlboy · 20-11-2012 01:50PM

2013 Model Leaf officially announced in Japan - new interior colour, leather, Bose sound system, extra range. http://insideevs.com/nissan-officially-announces-2013-leaf-in-japan-more-range-less-money-new-functionality/

Now it might actually suit me (extra range, current model is just cutting it too fine for my commute), wonder when it will be available in Ireland.

extremetaz · 20-11-2012 02:22PM

Yawlboy wrote: »

2013 Model Leaf officially announced in Japan - new interior colour, leather, Bose sound system, extra range. http://insideevs.com/nissan-officially-announces-2013-leaf-in-japan-more-range-less-money-new-functionality/

Now it might actually suit me (extra range, current model is just cutting it too fine for my commute), wonder when it will be available in Ireland.

First quarter of next year if everything goes to plan in Sunderland.

20-11-2012 02:23PM

Yawlboy wrote: »

2013 Model Leaf officially announced in Japan - new interior colour, leather, Bose sound system, extra range. http://insideevs.com/nissan-officially-announces-2013-leaf-in-japan-more-range-less-money-new-functionality/

Now it might actually suit me (extra range, current model is just cutting it too fine for my commute), wonder when it will be available in Ireland.

LMAO 10 miles range Improvement

I'd be embarrassed calling that a range improvement.

Jesus Nissan come on....LMAO I'd barely make my 84 mile commute,

Really they need a 30 kw/hr battery for a real 110 miles range. The sooner they realsie that the better for everyone.

Sesshoumaru · 20-11-2012 03:25PM

Yawlboy wrote: »

2013 Model Leaf officially announced in Japan - new interior colour, leather, Bose sound system, extra range. http://insideevs.com/nissan-officially-announces-2013-leaf-in-japan-more-range-less-money-new-functionality/

Now it might actually suit me (extra range, current model is just cutting it too fine for my commute), wonder when it will be available in Ireland.

Lots of nice improvements. The interior looks nicer, I wonder how the European version will look?

September1 · 20-11-2012 03:25PM

They have data from many drivers that share them over Carwings and who know what they collect during servicing. I think they know that range is not a big problem and I think they might be right.

unkel · 20-11-2012 03:34PM

Deleted User wrote: »

LMAO 10 miles range Improvement I'd be embarrassed calling that a range improvement.

Jesus Nissan come on....LMAO I'd barely make my 84 mile commute

In fairness, an EV is not for everyone. And won't be for a long time to come (if ever)

That said, I reckon a large minority (or even a majority) of people in the Dublin area rarely drive more than 60-70 miles in a day. And no doubt plenty of those people wouldn't mind planning a recharge stop for the handful of trips they make every year that require it, provided owning an EV gives a significant reduction in total cost of ownership (which is very doubtful at this stage that it does)

20-11-2012 04:39PM

unkel wrote: »

In fairness, an EV is not for everyone. And won't be for a long time to come (if ever)

That said, I reckon a large minority (or even a majority) of people in the Dublin area rarely drive more than 60-70 miles in a day. And no doubt plenty of those people wouldn't mind planning a recharge stop for the handful of trips they make every year that require it, provided owning an EV gives a significant reduction in total cost of ownership (which is very doubtful at this stage that it does)

It makes sense for me who drives a lot more than Dublin drivers, or most town drivers as I do 20K miles a year.

I would have around 4,000 Euro's to spare between less tax, maintenence and petrol.

Personally I would rather put that to a new car than petrol, and running up more and more miles on the Prius.

But the range is just a little too little, I need to know what I could get in winter with reasonable heat on at 100 KPH minimum, anything less is just not going to cut it with me.

City drivers willing to buy a new car will though would be stone mad not to buy the Leaf.

The other thing is that I have to face reality and realise I need to take into account the high mileage I do and what it does to the battery is unknown yet, 20-25 K miles a year would have nearly 90-100 K miles after 4 years. Not knowing yet what miles have to be done before capacity drops off is a bit of a scar to be honest.

SO I'd have to wait until at least 2015 until the new battery comes.

I Know of one leaf owner at 50 K miles in the U.S on the mynissanleaf forum says he has not lost capacity yet, that he can tell, if it went to 100K miles then I know I would probably be okay, the cost to change battery modules then should be reduced. But it's unknown yet if that cost would actually wipe out any savings over petrol.

unkel · 20-11-2012 05:04PM

Deleted User wrote: »

SO I'd have to wait until at least 2015 until the new battery comes.

By then the EV will be nearly gone. Most of us will be thinking about driving on cheap LPG / LNG / hydrogen

20-11-2012 06:11PM

unkel wrote: »

By then the EV will be nearly gone. Most of us will be thinking about driving on cheap LPG / LNG / hydrogen

You honestly think hydrogen will be cheap ? It takes massive amounts of energy to make it. And greedy energy companies will control it and governments tax it.

And renewable energy is much more efficiently put into batteries.

It would have its uses for HGV, planes, trains etc but for the car owner once we get a real 100-150 miles range and faster charging it will make a difference to the longer distance driver like me.

At least with battery cars you have the option to install wind turbine and solar panel and drive on your own electricity, with hydrogen you have no such option. At least non that's any way cheap.

Joe 90 · 20-11-2012 06:13PM

Deleted User wrote: »

You honestly think hydrogen will be cheap ? It takes massive amounts of energy to make it. And greedy energy companies will control it and governments tax it.

And renewable energy is much more efficiently put into batteries.

It would have its uses for HGV, planes, trains etc but for the car owner once we get a real 100-150 miles range and faster charging it will make a difference to the longer distance driver like me.

At least with battery cars you have the option to install wind turbine and solar panel and drive on your own electricity, with hydrogen you have no such option. At least non that's any way cheap.

You really believe that if EVs take off in any number the government won't find a way to tax the bejasus out of them?

20-11-2012 06:22PM

Joe 90 wrote: »

You really believe that if EVs take off in any number the government won't find a way to tax the bejasus out of them?

Well unless they plan tolls on every major route, then no, I don't think they will.

They would have to have car tax at about 3,000 a year to make up the difference to me, so I can't see that any time soon.

The most likely scenario would be to apply vrt at the minimum, thats not going to happen as even at 25K the Leaf would end up costing around 29 k.

Tax is so high on Cars in general that people are not buying in large numbere, that and they can't afford it.

But the usual thing in Ireland is to increase taxes and charges even higher to compensate when in fact if they lowered taxes a,lot more people would buy.

I know I will never buy a new car with vrt, never!

Leaf price drop - game changer?

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