Padding missing on Wach,s glove

barney4001 · 12-11-2012 7:42pm #1

http://sosoboxing.com/boxing-news/mariusz-wachs-right-glove-was-missing-padding/

T-K-O · 12-11-2012 7:52pm

Disappointed to see this. I thought Wach did a good job against Wlad. That is a punk move.

walshb · 13-11-2012 1:31pm

That chap could have had a shotgun in the ring and he still would have lost.

el flaco · 13-11-2012 2:01pm

walshb wrote: »

That chap could have had a shotgun in the ring and he still would have lost.

Yeah it would be tough to fire with the gloves on.

cowzerp · 13-11-2012 2:09pm

That's a disgrace, worse than what Margarito's team done.

gene_tunney · 13-11-2012 2:12pm

cowzerp wrote: »

That's a disgrace, worse than what Margarito's team done.

It's pretty different IMO.

1. Margarito or his team actually put plaster in his wraps.
2. It's not known whether the glove was naturally defective or Wach's team tinkered with it. So it's hard to lay blame anywhere.

But if it was intentional, yes it was a disgusting act of attempted barbarism.

T-K-O · 13-11-2012 2:14pm

cowzerp wrote: »

That's a disgrace, worse than what Margarito's team done.

Exactly, some posters on here seem very forgiving. The same people who slated Margarito.

The padding didn't remove itself and Wachs team should have noticed the glove before Vitali entered the room

cowzerp · 13-11-2012 2:23pm

gene_tunney wrote: »

It's pretty different IMO.

1. Margarito or his team actually put plaster in his wraps.

Plaster covered by padding, which the main advantage would be protection of hands, In this scenario the padding is almost gone and that is worse as it would be the protection for the face gone.

gene_tunney · 13-11-2012 8:45pm

cowzerp wrote: »

Plaster covered by padding, which the main advantage would be protection of hands, In this scenario the padding is almost gone and that is worse as it would be the protection for the face gone.

So Margarito used plaster to protect his hands? Notsheriffsrs

cowzerp · 13-11-2012 9:11pm

gene_tunney wrote: »

So Margarito used plaster to protect his hands? Notsheriffsrs

That's not what I'm saying, I'm saying with less risk to your hands you can throw with less worry and go harder without concern, even with bad technique.

gene_tunney · 13-11-2012 9:21pm

cowzerp wrote: »

That's not what I'm saying, I'm saying with less risk to your hands you can throw with less worry and go harder without concern, even with bad technique.

Only fighters with bad hands need to worry about punching too hard causing hand injuries. The plaster was there to do damage. When you injure your hand punching someone its not because you hit too hard but the angle of your hand at the time of impact.

As I'm sure you know the human head is quite a forgiving target, you're far more likely to hurt your hand on a punching bag than on someone's jaw.

walshb · 14-11-2012 1:00pm

No matter how good your technique is the more force you exert you will likely leave a chance that you can damage your hands. They are not made of steel. Many heavy hitters experienced issues with sore and damaged hands. And, it wasn't just down to technique and delivery.

cowzerp · 14-11-2012 1:12pm

gene_tunney wrote: »

Only fighters with bad hands need to worry about punching too hard causing hand injuries. The plaster was there to do damage. When you injure your hand punching someone its not because you hit too hard but the angle of your hand at the time of impact.

As I'm sure you know the human head is quite a forgiving target, you're far more likely to hurt your hand on a punching bag than on someone's jaw.

Bad hands in most cases is due to bad technique, hence why i said the plaster paris will allow for bad technique while still delivering solid blows, you basically agreed with me but made it look like a disagreement!!

endswell · 14-11-2012 5:06pm

walshb wrote: »

No matter how good your technique is the more force you exert you will likely leave a chance that you can damage your hands. They are not made of steel. Many heavy hitters experienced issues with sore and damaged hands. And, it wasn't just down to technique and delivery.

i.e. calzaghe

walshb · 14-11-2012 5:33pm

endswell wrote: »

i.e. calzaghe

Not sure Calzaghe was a naturally heavy hitter. Watching him even as an amateur his technique wasn't all that good.

endswell · 14-11-2012 6:03pm

walshb wrote: »

Not sure Calzaghe was a naturally heavy hitter. Watching him even as an amateur his technique wasn't all that good.

i was always under impression that he started out as heavy hitter but due to recurring injuries as a result of this had change his style of boxing to allow him to punch with less force. dont think im mixing him up, maybe tho

walshb · 14-11-2012 6:05pm

endswell wrote: »

i was always under impression that he started out as heavy hitter but due to recurring injuries as a result of this had change his style of boxing to allow him to punch with less force. dont think im mixing him up, maybe tho

He has badly damaged his left hand a few times. Couple of breaks too. He did hit more direct at the beginning and did indeed alter this style to protect the hands. That alter led to him being labeled a slapper, which was quite apt. Good hitter in the amateurs, but nothing spectacular.

Henno30 · 14-11-2012 6:26pm

This Margarito 'plaster' thing must be one of the biggest myths in boxing. There never was any 'plaster'. Gabriel Montoya who was one of the only boxing journalists who bothered his arse to cover the hearing described it as follows:

The handwraps were basically made to hide the inserts. The insert was about the size of a long business card. And about as stiff. It was not the rock or steel people make it out to be. It looked like a dirty, folded or ironed piece of old gauze. The knuckle pad was wrapped around it so unless you really got in there to inspect it, you wouldn't see it.

The whole plaster of paris thing was a complete and utter fabrication. What Margarito's trainer did was illegal, but it was not the fantastical tale of criminality which became the narrative. If it was there would have been a courtcase, or at the very least the supposed 'blocks' might actually be in existence somewhere.

gene_tunney · 14-11-2012 7:13pm

Henno30 wrote: »

This Margarito 'plaster' thing must be one of the biggest myths in boxing. There never was any 'plaster'. Gabriel Montoya who was one of the only boxing journalists who bothered his arse to cover the hearing described it as follows:

The whole plaster of paris thing was a complete and utter fabrication. What Margarito's trainer did was illegal, but it was not the fantastical tale of criminality which became the narrative. If it was there would have been a courtcase, or at the very least the supposed 'blocks' might actually be in existence somewhere.

Your information is incorrect. From wikipedia:

"The California Department of Justice laboratory later confirmed the substance to be similar in nature to plaster of Paris."

Henno30 · 14-11-2012 7:45pm

gene_tunney wrote: »

Your information is incorrect. From wikipedia:

"The California Department of Justice laboratory later confirmed the substance to be similar in nature to plaster of Paris."

Check the cited article on wikipedia for that claim. I did, and there's no mention of it whatsoever in the actual article. That's why you don't cite wikipedia.

The original claim comes from a lab report that stated trace elements of calcium and sulphur were found. Trace elements, which could just as easily have come from Margarito's hand lotion.

If there was plaster of paris in the pads, why the hell hadn't it set by the time of hearing several weeks later?

Again, the pads were illegal, but the story seems to have been blown out of proportion by the media thanks to Nazim's hyperbolic version of events.

gene_tunney · 14-11-2012 8:01pm

Henno30 wrote: »

Check the cited article on wikipedia for that claim. I did, and there's no mention of it whatsoever in the actual article. That's why you don't cite wikipedia.

The original claim comes from a lab report that stated trace elements of calcium and sulphur were found. Trace elements, which could just as easily have come from Margarito's hand lotion.

If there was plaster of paris in the pads, why the hell hadn't it set by the time of hearing several weeks later?

Again, the pads were illegal, but the story seems to have been blown out of proportion by the media thanks to Nazim's hyperbolic version of events.

1.A plaster-like substance was found in his gloves.
2. Traces of calcium and sulphur (the ingredients of plaster of paris) were found on chemical analysis.

Looks pretty conclusive to me.

Henno30 · 14-11-2012 10:56pm

gene_tunney wrote: »

1.A plaster-like substance was found in his gloves.
2. Traces of calcium and sulphur (the ingredients of plaster of paris) were found on chemical analysis.

Looks pretty conclusive to me.

Where's the evidence that a plaster-like substance was found?

The LA Times article is the only one I've seen that cites the lab report, and all that says is that there were trace elements of calcium and sulphur. You might find trace elements of calcium and sulphur in your breakfast.

gene_tunney · 14-11-2012 11:43pm

http://sports.espn.go.com/sports/boxing/news/story?id=3897765

Another inspector, Mike Bray, said during questioning that he had seen the pads and that they were "moist and dirty looking with a white substance smeared across the pad, like a cast plaster."

Frank Bullitt · 15-11-2012 9:56am

This is a real scumbag thing to do, whats worse is you can hear them say "no its fine, the glove is good etc", so they were trying for him to use the padless glove.

Ban this dirt.

15-11-2012 11:43am

Plaster of paris is made from gauze if I remember correctly. So both accounts have some truth.

Henno30 · 15-11-2012 1:02pm

Tony is a modern day Jesus. Crucified for the sins and ignorance of others.

colly10 · 15-11-2012 11:06pm

If the item in Tony's wraps was of no benefit, why would they add it when wrapping his hands then deny knowlege of it when it was found?

As for Wach, if this was found to be deliberate he should face a very long/lifetime ban.

Fighters should be made inspect their gloves first and if a serious "defect" is found on later inspectection then they should suffer a serious ban for ignoring it during their own check. This will wipe out these cases of tampering with their own gloves and pretending they didn't notice the problem

cowzerp · 16-11-2012 9:18am

colly10 wrote: »

If the item in Tony's wraps was of no benefit, why would they add it when wrapping his hands then deny knowlege of it when it was found?

Who said it was of no benefit?

Having your hands extra protected where you can swing like a mad thing with full force with less chance of injury is certainly an advantage to a fighter

I still maintain removing the padding from the glove which is the most important protection is worse.

Henno30 · 16-11-2012 10:59am

cowzerp wrote: »

Who said it was of no benefit?

Having your hands extra protected where you can swing like a mad thing with full force with less chance of injury is certainly an advantage to a fighter

I still maintain removing the padding from the glove which is the most important protection is worse.

Nazim said in an interview that the only thing he was slightly suspicious about coming into the fight was exactly what you're referring to, it didn't matter if Margarito was hitting Cotto's elbows or the top of his head in that first fight, it just didn't seem to affect him.

He also said though that he was more interested in Margarito's jaw than his hands, because Cotto hit him with everything in the book and he just walked through it. That was the story of that fight for me. Cotto thought he coould trade with Tony and he was very wrong. Had he fought the first fight the way he fought the second then he probably would have won it.

walshb · 16-11-2012 11:35am

Henno30 wrote: »

He also said though that he was more interested in Margarito's jaw than his hands, because Cotto hit him with everything in the book and he just walked through it. That was the story of that fight for me. Cotto thought he coould trade with Tony and he was very wrong. Had he fought the first fight the way he fought the second then he probably would have won it.

Thing is that Cotto was never a destructive hitter. Steady hitter. Mosely showed that Margarito's chin wasn't unhuman.

Personally I don't think Margarito's "wraps" were the reason he beat Cotto.

T-K-O · 16-11-2012 1:43pm

walshb wrote: »

Thing is that Cotto was never a destructive hitter. Steady hitter. Mosely showed that Margarito's chin wasn't unhuman.

Personally I don't think Margarito's "wraps" were the reason he beat Cotto.

You gotta be kidding. Cotto was beat up until he could take no more. Watch the last round again, Margairtio is not that strong. You could see the damage his shots were having.

walshb · 16-11-2012 2:01pm

I should have said main reason. Margarito back then was a deal better than the one from recent years. Margarito is a heavy handed and very strong fighter who takes a very good shot. He simply landed fairly consistently on Cotto, who could not take any more. Even their recent bout saw Cotto being forced back all night and getting tagged a fair bit. Just that Margarito was not near as good in the second fight. He was even more plodding. Mosley really wrecked Margarito.

btw, wasn't it the Mosely fight that caught Margarito out? Did Maragrito and his crew admit to glove tampering for the Cotto bout? Was there an investigation for the Cotto bout?

T-K-O · 16-11-2012 2:08pm

I believe it was after the Mosley bout. Margarito was a solid fighter but I was shocked how much he damaged Cotto on the night

walshb · 16-11-2012 2:10pm

I was not shocked. He landed an awful lot of heavy shots. Cotto has looked pretty beat up in a few of his fights. Margarito has heavy hands, and is a big strong dude.Consistent connections caused the loss for Cotto.

Separate note: The real difference with Cotto and Mosley was that Mosley was whacking Margarito with real belters. Margarito was not all that deterred by Cotto's punches. Mosley's shots had a lot more speed and power behind them. Hence why Margarito crumbled. I don't rate Margarito all that highly. Guys with power/speed and chins will eat him. Hearns, Leonard, Mosely, Trinidad etc.

cowzerp · 16-11-2012 2:11pm

T-K-O wrote: »

I believe it was after the Mosley bout. Margarito was a solid fighter but I was shocked how much he damaged Cotto on the night

Cotto in fairness took a lot of punishment, way more than he could have or should have.

unknown13 · 16-11-2012 2:12pm

walshb wrote: »

btw, wasn't it the Mosely fight that caught Margarito out? Did Maragrito and his crew admit to glove tampering for the Cotto bout? Was there an investigation for the Cotto bout?

Yes, there was no investigation by Nevada after the first bout.

I have to agree with those saying it is worse than Margarito. Margarito never fought with the hand wraps and wouldn't have been allowed to aswell. Wach had a better chance of fighting with that glove.

Also, Margarito was the favourite against Mosley and Wach was the massive underdog against Wladimir. So whether it was intentional or not. It was going to be an advantage for Wach.

walshb · 16-11-2012 2:16pm

I think I was one of few who thought Mosley would whack Margarito. And the reason was speed, chin and power.

T-K-O · 16-11-2012 2:18pm

cowzerp wrote: »

Cotto in fairness took a lot of punishment, way more than he could have or should have.

Exactly, but they way he dropped to his knee was very unusual. If was one of two things, A career best performance or something was up

walshb · 16-11-2012 2:21pm

Something was up. Cotto! He couldn't handle the relentless attacks and connections. Every man has a limit. Nothing at all unusual. Many fighters before and after have done similar. Look at Cotto vs. Pacman. He was on survival mode for about the last 4 rds or so. Running for life. And, Pac wasn't landing as much heavy shots as Margarito. Margarito was trapping Cotto easier and unloading to body and head all night.

T-K-O · 16-11-2012 2:29pm

Margarito is no Pac

walshb · 16-11-2012 2:34pm

Nobody said he was.

T-K-O · 16-11-2012 2:51pm

Cotto v Pac has no bearing

walshb · 16-11-2012 3:08pm

It was used to show that Cotto is far from invincible. Pacman did NOT land as much heavy leather on Cotto, yet Cotto was still running for the hills. Margarito was nothing special when he beat Cotto. He was big, strong and relentless. Had they been using pillows I still think that Margarito is bad for Cotto. He landed a lot of shots on Cotto and Cotto had enough.

Cotto landed a load of shots on Margaritio. Had they the same venom as Mosley or Leonard or Hearns or Trinidad et al, he would have destroyed Margarito.

Nothing to do with a career best night for Margaritio. Solid night for him against a man who couldn't really deter him. I would pick many men over Margarito from that night.

T-K-O · 16-11-2012 3:19pm

Cotto takes a lot of shots.. thats his style if you will. Margarito landed a lot of shots in the rematch without the same effect ??

walshb · 16-11-2012 3:29pm

Yes, not as much though. Both Cotto and Margarito in fight 2 were past their better days. Look at Margaritio. I know he's slow enough, but he was a mummy in fight two, yet still Cotto was backing up all night. No padding or lack of padding allowed Margarito to consistently trap and work Cotto over for 11 steady rds.

Cotto simply could not avoid the shots enough, and eventually the accumulation took its toll. He was not clean knocked out. I saw nothing spectacular at all from Margarito. He just landed a lot of clean shots forcing a retirement. Pac too forced a retirement after not as much landed leather. Was his gloves loaded? I would argue that Marg is as heavy handed as Manny. Plus, it is clear to me that Margarito landed more in his fight vs. Cotto than Pacman landed vs. Cotto.

T-K-O · 16-11-2012 3:35pm

Jesus H Christ

Margarito is not Pac and certainly not on this level. The fight with Pac has absolutely no bearing. I think its plain to see that the wrapped hands of Margarito eventually took their toll on Cotto.

cowzerp · 16-11-2012 3:36pm

T-K-O wrote: »

Margarito is no Pac

On that night he was sensational, just kept coming forward and throwing and taking cotto's best-Handwraps don't make this happen-Margarito was the better man on the night, the wraps if they where even an issue on the night would certainly sully the decision but boxing wise he done the job.

T-K-O · 16-11-2012 3:40pm

cowzerp wrote: »

On that night he was sensational, just kept coming forward and throwing and taking cotto's best-Handwraps don't make this happen-Margarito was the better man on the night, the wraps if they where even an issue on the night would certainly sully the decision but boxing wise he done the job.

It was brilliant performance but he was cheating and did himself an injustice. It begs the question, is that all he did to cheat on the night. While I was impressed on the night its pretty difficult to give him credit after the fact

walshb · 16-11-2012 3:42pm

We know Marg is no Pac.

Question: Did Marg land more on Cotto as opposed to Pacman.

Did Marg hit as heavy as Pac?

Using Pac to illustrate that Cotto is dentable and vulnerable and not impervious to punishment.

I personally feel that Margarito landed heavier and more leather on Cotto than did Manny. So, in saying this, were Manny's gloves loaded too? I mean, Cotto was running for his life

Just a theory. Just asking questions. Feel free to ignore.

walshb · 16-11-2012 3:47pm

It was a brilliant performance against a Cotto. That performance would not have beaten Mosley. So, really, it was down to opposition too. Cotto is a lovely boxer, is tough, and can take a good shot, but his power was not enough to keep Margarito at bay. I have little doubt that if Cotto had real heavy hands and snap he would have eaten Margarito alive.

T-K-O · 16-11-2012 3:48pm

Question: Did Marg land more on Cotto as opposed to Pacman.

Honestly cant remember but Cotto walked onto some heavy shots

Did Marg hit as heavy as Pac?

No

Using Pac to illustrate that Cotto is dentable and vulnerable and not impervious to punishment.

You could argue that Margaritos and his wraps had a lasting effect on Cotto

I personally feel that Margarito landed heavier and more leather on Cotto than did Manny. So, in saying this, was Manny's gloves loaded too? I mean, Cotto was running for his life

We have no reason to question PAC. We have every reason to question Margarito

Just a theory. Just asking questions. Feel free to ignore.

Padding missing on Wach,s glove

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