Padding missing on Wach,s glove

walshb

I should have said main reason. Margarito back then was a deal better than the one from recent years. Margarito is a heavy handed and very strong fighter who takes a very good shot. He simply landed fairly consistently on Cotto, who could not take any more. Even their recent bout saw Cotto being forced back all night and getting tagged a fair bit. Just that Margarito was not near as good in the second fight. He was even more plodding. Mosley really wrecked Margarito.

btw, wasn't it the Mosely fight that caught Margarito out? Did Maragrito and his crew admit to glove tampering for the Cotto bout? Was there an investigation for the Cotto bout?

T-K-O

I believe it was after the Mosley bout. Margarito was a solid fighter but I was shocked how much he damaged Cotto on the night

walshb

I was not shocked. He landed an awful lot of heavy shots. Cotto has looked pretty beat up in a few of his fights. Margarito has heavy hands, and is a big strong dude.Consistent connections caused the loss for Cotto.

Separate note: The real difference with Cotto and Mosley was that Mosley was whacking Margarito with real belters. Margarito was not all that deterred by Cotto's punches. Mosley's shots had a lot more speed and power behind them. Hence why Margarito crumbled. I don't rate Margarito all that highly. Guys with power/speed and chins will eat him. Hearns, Leonard, Mosely, Trinidad etc.

cowzerp

T-K-O wrote: »

I believe it was after the Mosley bout. Margarito was a solid fighter but I was shocked how much he damaged Cotto on the night

Cotto in fairness took a lot of punishment, way more than he could have or should have.

unknown13

walshb wrote: »

btw, wasn't it the Mosely fight that caught Margarito out? Did Maragrito and his crew admit to glove tampering for the Cotto bout? Was there an investigation for the Cotto bout?

Yes, there was no investigation by Nevada after the first bout.

I have to agree with those saying it is worse than Margarito. Margarito never fought with the hand wraps and wouldn't have been allowed to aswell. Wach had a better chance of fighting with that glove.

Also, Margarito was the favourite against Mosley and Wach was the massive underdog against Wladimir. So whether it was intentional or not. It was going to be an advantage for Wach.

walshb

I think I was one of few who thought Mosley would whack Margarito. And the reason was speed, chin and power.

T-K-O

cowzerp wrote: »

Cotto in fairness took a lot of punishment, way more than he could have or should have.

Exactly, but they way he dropped to his knee was very unusual. If was one of two things, A career best performance or something was up

walshb

Something was up. Cotto! He couldn't handle the relentless attacks and connections. Every man has a limit. Nothing at all unusual. Many fighters before and after have done similar. Look at Cotto vs. Pacman. He was on survival mode for about the last 4 rds or so. Running for life. And, Pac wasn't landing as much heavy shots as Margarito. Margarito was trapping Cotto easier and unloading to body and head all night.

T-K-O

Margarito is no Pac

walshb

Nobody said he was.

T-K-O

Cotto v Pac has no bearing

walshb

It was used to show that Cotto is far from invincible. Pacman did NOT land as much heavy leather on Cotto, yet Cotto was still running for the hills. Margarito was nothing special when he beat Cotto. He was big, strong and relentless. Had they been using pillows I still think that Margarito is bad for Cotto. He landed a lot of shots on Cotto and Cotto had enough.

Cotto landed a load of shots on Margaritio. Had they the same venom as Mosley or Leonard or Hearns or Trinidad et al, he would have destroyed Margarito.

Nothing to do with a career best night for Margaritio. Solid night for him against a man who couldn't really deter him. I would pick many men over Margarito from that night.

T-K-O

Cotto takes a lot of shots.. thats his style if you will. Margarito landed a lot of shots in the rematch without the same effect ??

walshb

Yes, not as much though. Both Cotto and Margarito in fight 2 were past their better days. Look at Margaritio. I know he's slow enough, but he was a mummy in fight two, yet still Cotto was backing up all night. No padding or lack of padding allowed Margarito to consistently trap and work Cotto over for 11 steady rds.

Cotto simply could not avoid the shots enough, and eventually the accumulation took its toll. He was not clean knocked out. I saw nothing spectacular at all from Margarito. He just landed a lot of clean shots forcing a retirement. Pac too forced a retirement after not as much landed leather. Was his gloves loaded? I would argue that Marg is as heavy handed as Manny. Plus, it is clear to me that Margarito landed more in his fight vs. Cotto than Pacman landed vs. Cotto.

T-K-O

Jesus H Christ

Margarito is not Pac and certainly not on this level. The fight with Pac has absolutely no bearing. I think its plain to see that the wrapped hands of Margarito eventually took their toll on Cotto.

cowzerp

T-K-O wrote: »

Margarito is no Pac

On that night he was sensational, just kept coming forward and throwing and taking cotto's best-Handwraps don't make this happen-Margarito was the better man on the night, the wraps if they where even an issue on the night would certainly sully the decision but boxing wise he done the job.

T-K-O

cowzerp wrote: »

On that night he was sensational, just kept coming forward and throwing and taking cotto's best-Handwraps don't make this happen-Margarito was the better man on the night, the wraps if they where even an issue on the night would certainly sully the decision but boxing wise he done the job.

It was brilliant performance but he was cheating and did himself an injustice. It begs the question, is that all he did to cheat on the night. While I was impressed on the night its pretty difficult to give him credit after the fact

walshb

We know Marg is no Pac.

Question: Did Marg land more on Cotto as opposed to Pacman.

Did Marg hit as heavy as Pac?

Using Pac to illustrate that Cotto is dentable and vulnerable and not impervious to punishment.

I personally feel that Margarito landed heavier and more leather on Cotto than did Manny. So, in saying this, were Manny's gloves loaded too? I mean, Cotto was running for his life

Just a theory. Just asking questions. Feel free to ignore.

walshb

It was a brilliant performance against a Cotto. That performance would not have beaten Mosley. So, really, it was down to opposition too. Cotto is a lovely boxer, is tough, and can take a good shot, but his power was not enough to keep Margarito at bay. I have little doubt that if Cotto had real heavy hands and snap he would have eaten Margarito alive.

T-K-O

Question: Did Marg land more on Cotto as opposed to Pacman.

Honestly cant remember but Cotto walked onto some heavy shots

Did Marg hit as heavy as Pac?

No

Using Pac to illustrate that Cotto is dentable and vulnerable and not impervious to punishment.

You could argue that Margaritos and his wraps had a lasting effect on Cotto

I personally feel that Margarito landed heavier and more leather on Cotto than did Manny. So, in saying this, was Manny's gloves loaded too? I mean, Cotto was running for his life

We have no reason to question PAC. We have every reason to question Margarito

Just a theory. Just asking questions. Feel free to ignore.

walshb

I agree that if an athlete is guilty of cheating once then we can wonder and ask the question of whether the athlete cheated in the past. In the Cotto fight I don't think Cotto wins no matter WHAT we know. He wasn't up to the task, even though he boxed superbly. That little bit was missing, and it's a bit that sees him lose to other fighters as well.

T-K-O

I will concede, Cotto would have lost that fight on points. My biggest problem is the stoppage and I have no doubt what caused that

pitythefool

cowzerp wrote: »

Bad hands in most cases is due to bad technique, hence why i said the plaster paris will allow for bad technique while still delivering solid blows, you basically agreed with me but made it look like a disagreement!!

so plaster helps you yo throw harder punches

is that what you are saying?

walshb

Plaster or protection allows a fighter to feel that bit freer to throw shots without risking injury, hence it can allow a fighter to put more ooomph into the shot.

cowzerp

walshb wrote: »

Plaster or protection allows a fighter to feel that bit freer to throw shots without risking injury, hence it can allow a fighter to put more ooomph into the shot.

What Walshb said, with a minor change-he can throw full force with lesser technique as the protection can stop injuries that would usually happen if you land badly with full power.

sxt

I am surprised at how calm and composed Vitali was after checking that right hand glove .

gene_tunney

walshb wrote: »

Thing is that Cotto was never a destructive hitter. Steady hitter. Mosely showed that Margarito's chin wasn't unhuman.

Personally I don't think Margarito's "wraps" were the reason he beat Cotto.

I agree, I think Marg would have beaten him anyway, the wraps definitely did help though.

EDIT: you can't compare Margo and Pac. Pacquiao absolutely destroyed Cotto in what was one of Pac's most amazing displays. Margarito just wore him down.

walshb

gene_tunney wrote: »

I agree, I think Marg would have beaten him anyway, the wraps definitely did help though.

EDIT: you can't compare Margo and Pac. Pacquiao absolutely destroyed Cotto in what was one of Pac's most amazing displays. Margarito just wore him down.

I did not compare Margarito to Manny. I compared the damage done to Cotto by both men. I used this analogy to counter a claim that Cotto's loss to Margarito was somehow unbelievable. Margarito did more than "just" wear him down.

I felt that Margarito landed a deal more to Cotto's head and body for 11 rds than Manny landed. Cotto vs. Manny was running for his life with 4-5 rds to go. He is far from invincible. I cannot see how Cotto's loss to Margarito was highly suspect. Margarito gave him a good going over, and Cotto eventually had enough.

Manny gave Cotto less of a going over, and Cotto was running and had to be saved by the ref.

As for wraps. No investigation found that Margarito used illegal wraps vs. Cotto.

T-K-O

Just to clarify. I was not implying that the victory was unbelievable. It was a surprise that he beat him into submission. Pac beat the hell out of Cotto and the man was still on his feat at the end of the fight.

This 'Manny gave Cotto less of a going over' is simply not true. Cotto V Margartio was a much closer fight in comparison.

gene_tunney

T-K-O wrote: »

Just to clarify. I was not implying that the victory was unbelievable. It was a surprise that he beat him into submission. Pac beat the hell out of Cotto and the man was still on his feat at the end of the fight.

This 'Manny gave Cotto less of a going over' is simply not true. Cotto V Margartio was a much closer fight in comparison.

Yup, Pac beat the **** out of Cotto for the whole fight, whereas for large parts of the first fight Cotto was beating the **** out of Margo.