Ireland Team Talk/Gossip/Rumour Thread

danthefan · 07-11-2012 8:08pm

Recently even Simon Easterby is English born and as far as I know never played in Ireland. Nobody cared.

bilston · 07-11-2012 8:11pm

My views on Bent have changed a little over the last come of weeks.Initially I was against it but thinking about it we're only up in arms because he hasn't played in Ireland but if you think about it is he any different to Simon Easterby?

Edit - Dan beat me to it

jacothelad · 07-11-2012 8:16pm

jm08 wrote: »

Marshall is still very inexperienced. No mention by me about standard of scrumhalf.

Marshall inexperienced. Total twaddle. Playing 87 competitive games for Ulster is inexperienced. pray tell me how experienced Murray is. I can hear the air getting in from here.

jacothelad · 07-11-2012 8:19pm

Banbridgeman2 wrote: »

Great post, I have another one: Murray deserved to start after 6 ML appearances in a world cup QF but Henderson is too inexperienced to start in an AI friendly

You can chuck in Murray can play for Ireland after 6 average games but Marshall is inexperienced after playing in 87 for Ulster.

danthefan · 07-11-2012 8:20pm

jacothelad wrote: »

You can chuck in Murray can play for Ireland after 6 average games but Marshall is inexperienced after playing in 87 for Ulster.

That's a gem alright.

jacothelad · 07-11-2012 8:22pm

brinty wrote: »

Does any that anser the question i asked?? Why do leinster players continue to underperform in Green...are they unable to account for their own performances and green...after all they were the players choosen to do the job!!

So BOD, Healy, Kearney, Heaslip et al underperform in an Irish jersey? There is bollox and there is complete, utter and total bollox of which this is a prime example.

jacothelad · 07-11-2012 8:27pm

Cpt_Blackbeard wrote: »

Surely Henderson and Bent have done less than another player under Kidney's tenure to deserve a call up.

I don't think either should be there qat the moment but they haver done as much or more as Kilcoyne. He's done the square root of feck all against who? Treviso? Zebre? A laughable Edinburgh team?

ed7890 · 07-11-2012 8:33pm

jacothelad wrote: »

I don't think either should be there qat the moment but they haver done as much or more as Kilcoyne. He's done the square root of feck all against who? Treviso? Zebre? A laughable Edinburgh team?

... and Racing and Ulster and Leinster.

jacothelad · 07-11-2012 8:34pm

goreyguy wrote: »

Henderson is only 6'5 though, not an ideal height

Not an ideal height for what? He's 6'5" apart from the fact that he's actually 6'6". Does that make him more ideal? He's the same height as POC and DOC only heavier, faster and can actually pass.

Cpt_Blackbeard · 07-11-2012 8:44pm

jacothelad wrote: »

I don't think either should be there qat the moment but they haver done as much or more as Kilcoyne. He's done the square root of feck all against who? Treviso? Zebre? A laughable Edinburgh team?

Well Henderson has ~half the amount of senior games under his belt as Kilcoyne current has. The whole reason of mentioning Henderson is to highlight the double standards when talking about players.

Posters were criticising the selection of Murray for the RWC squad ahead of no other competant Irish scrumhalf after a great finish to the season and 13 senior appearances. The same posters often see no problem with Henderson with his 6 senior appearances getting ahead of McLoughlin and others want to see him ahead of POM.

Kilcoyne has look very good this season and has played against much more top opposition than Henderson, but posters are begrudging him being selected ahead of a 32 year old Australian prop.

Can you notice the double standards?

ScissorPaperRock · 07-11-2012 8:50pm

Does anyone think the new coaching setup and the reduced availability of first choice players will lead to a new style of play for Ireland?

Yes, it's still Kidney, Munster bias, Murray vs Reddan, ROG should be out, DOC should be out.... blah blah blah... but - if a 60-0 defeat to cap off a winless summer tour doesn't provide the impetus to take a step back and rethink the Irish approach to test matches, then what would?

07-11-2012 8:52pm

Cpt_Blackbeard wrote: »

Well Henderson has ~half the amount of senior games under his belt as Kilcoyne current has. The whole reason of mentioning Henderson is to highlight the double standards when talking about players.

Posters were criticising the selection of Murray ahead of no other competant Irish scrumhalf after a great finish to the season and 13 senior appearances. The same posters often see no problem with Henderson with his 6 senior appearances getting ahead of McLoughlin and others want to see him ahead of POM.

Kilcoyne has look very good this season and has played against much more top opposition than Henderson, but posters are begrudging him being selected ahead of a 32 year old Australian prop.

Can you notice the double standards?

:rolleyes:

If you want to pretend that's true, then nobody's going to be able to take the rest of your post seriously.

Cpt_Blackbeard · 07-11-2012 8:55pm

Deleted User wrote: »

:rolleyes:

If you want to pretend that's true, then nobody's going to be able to take the rest of your post seriously.

I've adjusted the wording to spare your blushes. Any chance you'll tackle the rest of the post now?

07-11-2012 9:01pm

Cpt_Blackbeard wrote: »

I've adjusted the wording to spare your blushes. Any chance you'll tackle the rest of the post now?

[pedant] You fixing your mistake does not spare anyone but yourself blushes [/pedant]

people were not questioning him being part of the WC squad. As you've said, who else would they chose?

There is a world of difference between someone being selected to play a RWC QF and being selected for an Autumn International game. A game that should probably, definitely, 100% be the type of games to try new things, blood a new player, see how a combination works against a top 8 side in a competitive game.

If you're going to use comparisons then make fair ones. A fair one is John Hayes being selected at TH in Autumn 2010 while Mike Ross had had a great start to his second season with Leinster. A season after he'd been in the premiership team of the season at Quins.

In fact, that's not even a fair comparison!

totallegend · 07-11-2012 9:02pm

bilston wrote: »

Yeah it's bizarre. I actually have some sympathy for Kidney.

I don't.

Having guys delay surgery so they can go on meaningless trips down under is a recipe for disaster.
Flogging guys when they're clearly struggling for fitness is a bad idea.
Paying lip service to squad development for as long as possible is bound to lead to problems when your key players get older.
Treating each and every match like it's life or death won't help you build a squad.
Trying to play modern-era rugby with dinosaur-era tactics is never going to pay dividends.

These are all massive, massive failings of the Kidney era.

Kidney has access to and control over his players that every other international coach would kill for. His 'player welfare' scheme is being shown up for the crock of sh*te that it always was; the players are playing fewer club games than ever yet seem to be falling apart.

He's been national coach during a period of frankly unbelievable success for the provinces and he's been unable to translate it into national success. English clubs won four Heinekens in five seasons from 2000 - 2004, just like we have 2008 - 2012; go back and look at their national record in that period.

So no, I have no sympathy for Kidney. I have sympathy for the mismanaged players and the fans who have to fork out to pay for tickets to watch Kidney's turgid brand of rugby, but I have no sympathy for Kidney at all.

Cpt_Blackbeard · 07-11-2012 9:05pm

Deleted User wrote: »

[pedant] You fixing your mistake does not spare anyone but yourself blushes [/pedant]

people were not questioning him being part of the WC squad. As you've said, who else would they chose?

There is a world of difference between someone being selected to play a RWC QF and being selected for an Autumn International game. A game that should probably, definitely, 100% be the type of games to try new things, blood a new player, see how a combination works against a top 8 side in a competitive game.

If you're going to use comparisons then make fair ones. A fair one is John Hayes being selected at TH in Autumn 2010 while Mike Ross had had a great start to his second season with Leinster.

Answer the point I made. Stop skirting around it. I have zero issues acknowledging that Kidney has made many mistakes.

Henderson looks to be getting the easiest introduction to the Ireland team of any player under Kidney, yet posters here don't mind. Why is that?

07-11-2012 9:10pm

Cpt_Blackbeard wrote: »

Answer the point I made. Stop skirting around it. I have zero issues acknowledging that Kidney has made many mistakes.

Henderson looks to be getting the easiest introduction to the Ireland team of any player under Kidney, yet posters here don't mind. Why is that?

because SOB, Ferris, Dougall , Coughlan are injured
because Jennings has never featured under Kidney and neither has JOC
because POM, Heaslip, Henry and McLaughlin are all already in the squad.
because Dominic Ryan, Rhys Ruddock are not playing consistently
because Henderson was one of the most impressive players at the U20 6N this year, and has built on that with Ulster this season.
because Kidney had to pick a squad, and there's basically only 3 other back row players in Ireland left to pick. (Wilson & Muldoon & Faloon)
Because Kidney loves a 5.5 and this lad can play second row and 6.

In fact, you're giving out about people questioning Murray's involvement in the WC ahead of no other scrum half. Who do you reckon Henderson has been picked ahead of? Butler / DOC2?

bilston · 07-11-2012 9:15pm

Cpt_Blackbeard wrote: »

Answer the point I made. Stop skirting around it. I have zero issues acknowledging that Kidney has made many mistakes.

Henderson looks to be getting the easiest introduction to the Ireland team of any player under Kidney, yet posters here don't mind. Why is that?

Look Cpt you have a point about Henderson, however I posted here about 3 weeks ago that I had a suspicion that Kidney was going to fast track him. We'll find out tomorrow how quickly.

But I think there is, in some people's mind, a difference between Murray and Henderson. I think rightly or wrongly some people look at Henderson and see a potential star and because of that they are more open to his fast tracking.

Cpt_Blackbeard · 07-11-2012 9:18pm

Deleted User wrote: »

because SOB, Ferris, Dougall , Coughlan are injured
because Jennings has never featured under Kidney and neither has JOC
because POM, Heaslip, Henry and McLaughlin are all already in the squad.
because Dominic Ryan, Rhys Ruddock are not playing consistently
because Henderson was one of the most impressive players at the U20 6N this year, and has built on that with Ulster this season.
because Kidney had to pick a squad, and there's basically only 3 other back row players in Ireland left to pick. (Wilson & Muldoon & Faloon)
Because Kidney loves a 5.5 and this lad can play second row and 6.

In fact, you're giving out about people questioning Murray's involvement in the WC ahead of no other scrum half. Who do you reckon Henderson has been picked ahead of? Butler / DOC2?

Looking at the expected team for tomorrow, Henderson is going to be picked ahead of McLoughlin. There has also been calls for him to play ahead of POM. McCarthy and Ryan are both also more established 6s than Henderson.

I have no problem seeing Henderson involved on the weekend, but I haven't been the one complaining about Kidney picking great young players ahead of more established lads.

Tox56 · 07-11-2012 9:21pm

He may be young and we have yet to see him at the business end of the season, but in my mind Henderson has way more potential than Murray. Not that I don't think Murray could be a good player, but Henderson looks special.

Cpt_Blackbeard · 07-11-2012 9:24pm

Tox56 wrote: »

He may be young and we have yet to see him at the business end of the season, but in my mind Henderson has way more potential than Murray. Not that I don't think Murray could be a good player, but Henderson looks special.

I've no problem with that. My problem is with the blatant double standards which are applied to players from different provinces because posters hate Kidney and anything he has ever been closely linked with by proxy.

.ak · 07-11-2012 9:25pm

emmet has a good point, to simplify it; Henderson could be fast tracked into the squad because of injury, Murray was fast tracked into the squad for god knows why. I don't buy that Henderson is being picked ahead of Locky - Locky hasn't been 100% since coming back from his injury and could well be carrying a knock.

Also, you can't call people asking for Henderson to be called into the squad double standards when they were equally rebutting the call of Murray in the RWC - Henderson is currently lighting the world on fire in terms of 5.5 play - you couldn't say the same about Murray pre-RWC.

danthefan · 07-11-2012 9:29pm

.ak wrote: »

emmet has a good point, to simplify it; Henderson could be fast tracked into the squad because of injury, Murray was fast tracked into the squad for god knows why. I don't buy that Henderson is being picked ahead of Locky - Locky hasn't been 100% since coming back from his injury and could well be carrying a knock.

Also, you can't call people asking for Henderson to be called into the squad double standards when they were equally rebutting the call of Murray in the RWC - Henderson is currently lighting the world on fire in terms of 5.5 play - you couldn't say the same about Murray pre-RWC.

We all know why. It's because Kidney saw TOL mkII in him, and he's from Munster. There's no getting around it.

On Henderson my personal view is that he shouldn't start this game, but if he's in the 23 then I'd have no issue, he's some talent.

phog · 07-11-2012 9:30pm

MLC61 wrote: »

I am trying to remember if there was the same furore back in the late 80's and early 90's. I don' t think there was.
Simon Geoghegan was one of the most exciting players of his time and a definite crowd favourite. Jim Staples was an incredibly brave full back. There was no carping that they were born in the UK, lived there and played their rugby there.
Certainly with Brian Smith it was questioned and likewise Dion O'Cuinneagain but both were capped for other countries first.

Irish players were amateur or just becoming professional then, so no one was committed to making a career out of rugby like those that are now competing with Bent for an International spot. Provincial rugby was almost a past time.

Also, there was no internet, no 24X7 news frenzy and rugby was just another sport with a limited support base.

.ak · 07-11-2012 9:32pm

danthefan wrote: »

We all know why. It's because Kidney saw TOL mkII in him, and he's from Munster. There's no getting around it.

On Henderson my personal view is that he shouldn't start this game, but if he's in the 23 then I'd have no issue, he's some talent.

Aye, I don't think SA is the right game to start him, but as you say if he's on the bench I'd be watching him keenly if he comes on, as he's a great prospect to the future of Irish rugby.

brinty · 07-11-2012 9:41pm

So no POC now...i bet the non munsters are delighted...one less munster player in the team..
was just doing a quick look on the first choice team at the minute and all players considered...i.e no injuries or fitness etcetc
If people had to pick what would be the break down off the team????? i had 8 leinster 4 munster 3 Ulster..would that be fair???? Or would people still take issue with 4 munster players being involved??

DeDoc · 07-11-2012 9:44pm

phog wrote: »

Irish players were amateur or just becoming professional then, so no one was committed to making a career out of rugby like those that are now competing with Bent for an International spot. Provincial rugby was almost a past time.

Also, there was no internet, no 24X7 news frenzy and rugby was just another sport with a limited support base.

There are some major differences:

- In the case of Staples, Geoghegan etc they all played for Connacht (and London Irish when the both parts of that club name meant something)
- With the likes of Maggs etc - they had declared and were being watched regularly in what was the main playing ground for our internationals at the time (i.e. in the English league).

I think peoples main issue with Bent is that it was a piece of speculative business by Leinster, with the only person who has (maybe) seen him play live being Greg Feek. None of the Irish set-up have ever even seen the guy play and suddenly he is in a match day squad. I think that sucks, and it sends out a bad message - what is a guy like Loughney supposed to think?
I hope Bent has a blinder and turns out to be a great player with a long Irish career, but until he's actually played a game or two I'd prefer Tony Buckley

Heroditas · 07-11-2012 9:47pm

brinty wrote: »

So no POC now...i bet the non munsters are delighted...one less munster player in the team..
was just doing a quick look on the first choice team at the minute and all players considered...i.e no injuries or fitness etcetc
If people had to pick what would be the break down off the team????? i had 8 leinster 4 munster 3 Ulster..would that be fair???? Or would people still take issue with 4 munster players being involved??

You need some new material.

brinty · 07-11-2012 9:51pm

Heroditas wrote: »

You need some new material.

Heroditas...thats an honest and genuine question

I want whats best for the Irish jersey

Everyone seems to want to Munster bash..and its ok for them to say the like of Murray is sh1t and doesn't deserve what he's had and Kidney is a joke...

Just trying to be a bit balanced...

goreyguy · 07-11-2012 9:53pm

Murray isn't Ireland best SH. anyone with eyes can see that.

Ireland Team Talk/Gossip/Rumour Thread

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