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Why would an Irish person wear a poppy ?

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Comments

  • #422
    Nodin
    Closed Accounts Posts: 46,938 ✭✭✭✭Nodin


    philologos wrote: »
    ..............

    Why? The red poppy is sufficient. It does what I need it to. I'm not so foaming at the mouth against the British army to do anything else. I don't wear it to glorify the British army, but to remember. That's all.



    I don't wear a lily because I don't see why the Easter Rising was such a great thing. It brought destruction to a city which largely didn't want it. If people think the Easter Rising is great, and so on, good on them. I don't share that view.

    But rather than wear a white poppy, you were a red one. You won't celebrate or remember a fight for independence, but will fund the veterans of brutal colonial regimes and condone imperialist nostalgia.

    Lovely.


  • #423
    golden lane
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,364 ✭✭✭golden lane


    Nodin wrote: »
    But rather than wear a white poppy, you were a red one. You won't celebrate or remember a fight for independence, but will fund the veterans of brutal colonial regimes and condone imperialist nostalgia.

    Lovely.

    it's amazing what one euro can do......

    what will happen if he buys two poppys............maybe another d-day landing........????


  • #424
    Nodin
    Closed Accounts Posts: 46,938 ✭✭✭✭Nodin


    golden lane wrote: »
    it's amazing what one euro can do......

    what will happen if he buys two poppys............maybe another d-day landing........????

    No, maybe some of it would go somebody who was involved in this...
    http://www.thenational.ae/news/world/africa/cyprus-torture-victim-still-seeking-uk-apology#page1

    or this
    http://edition.cnn.com/2012/10/05/world/europe/uk-kenya-colonial-case/index.html

    or various events up north.


  • #425
    Lelantos
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,612 ✭✭✭Lelantos


    Aodh Rua wrote: »







    The irony of all this worldview needs to be commented upon. The above people, and others here, seem to want Irish people to buy a red poppy from the Royal British Legion because it symbolises the "fight against Hitler".

    What all of them omit to mention is that the Royal British Legion, the most British nationalist of organisations, was a huge supporter of Adolf Hitler and the Nazi party, going as far as to organise hundreds of British Nazi sympathisers into a force known as the British Legion Volunteer Police Force to help the Nazis police the Sudetenland after Hitler invaded Czechoslovakia in 1938.

    Royal British Legion collaboration with Nazi Germany, 1938:

    Royal British Legion leaders meeting Nazi leaders in Germany, 1938

    Royal British Legion supporters training in London to fight for the Nazis, 1938

    This attempt by poppy promoters and the Royal British Legion to cover up this historical reality and rewrite the widespread pro-Nazis sympathies in British society prior to WWII should not be allowed to pass by people who are genuinely concerned with historical truth.
    Actually, my Adolf Hitler was in reply to something & you missed the point sunshine


  • #426
    Lelantos
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,612 ✭✭✭Lelantos


    Aodh Rua wrote: »







    The irony of all this worldview needs to be commented upon. The above people, and others here, seem to want Irish people to buy a red poppy from the Royal British Legion because it symbolises the "fight against Hitler".

    What all of them omit to mention is that the Royal British Legion, the most British nationalist of organisations, was a huge supporter of Adolf Hitler and the Nazi party, going as far as to organise hundreds of British Nazi sympathisers into a force known as the British Legion Volunteer Police Force to help the Nazis police the Sudetenland after Hitler invaded Czechoslovakia in 1938.

    Royal British Legion collaboration with Nazi Germany, 1938:

    Royal British Legion leaders meeting Nazi leaders in Germany, 1938

    Royal British Legion supporters training in London to fight for the Nazis, 1938

    This attempt by poppy promoters and the Royal British Legion to cover up this historical reality and rewrite the widespread pro-Nazis sympathies in British society prior to WWII should not be allowed to pass by people who are genuinely concerned with historical truth.
    Actually, my Adolf Hitler was in reply to something & you missed the point sunshine


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  • #427
    golden lane
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,364 ✭✭✭golden lane


    Nodin wrote: »
    No, maybe some of it would go somebody who was involved in this...
    http://www.thenational.ae/news/world/africa/cyprus-torture-victim-still-seeking-uk-apology#page1

    or this
    http://edition.cnn.com/2012/10/05/world/europe/uk-kenya-colonial-case/index.html

    or various events up north.

    yes, and they would be set up for life.......or, would you prefer to take away someones right to freely chose........just like the empires did.....

    stop wasting your time posting history.....it is no secret......what both sides did.......


  • #428
    Nodin
    Closed Accounts Posts: 46,938 ✭✭✭✭Nodin


    golden lane wrote: »
    yes, and they would be set up for life.......or, would you prefer to take away someones right to freely chose........just like the empires did.....

    stop wasting your time posting history.....it is no secret......what both sides did.......


    ....yep. Some shower thought they could go abroad, slaugher the natives, and essentially rob the place. Yet here we are in the 21st century, and we've people apologising for international muggings.


  • #429
    Aphex Tim
    Closed Accounts Posts: 31 ✭Aphex Tim


    seanhalpin wrote: »

    Interesting how the only country to be an economic success was South Africa. I'll leave it up to the readers to figure why that was the case as i'd be accused of something if I gave the reason.

    Go on ... tell us


  • #430
    golden lane
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,364 ✭✭✭golden lane


    Nodin wrote: »
    ....yep. Some shower thought they could go abroad, slaugher the natives, and essentially rob the place. Yet here we are in the 21st century, and we've people apologising for international muggings.

    such is life.....empires are far too many to try and count......so it's best not to bother......

    my grandfather and great grandfather were career soldiers in the british army (both dublin men)....somehow i fail to feel guilty.

    i had a relation killed in the birmingham bombings......i don't go around calling everybody murderers.....

    but, i do sincerely wish for a great future for my children and grandchildren....


  • #431
    seanhalpin
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 50 ✭✭seanhalpin


    bobbysands81 wrote: »
    Stunning ignorance, completely ignoring how Britain colonised these nations and how they maintained power there as well.

    Millions of people tortured, raped, imprisoned, murdered etc in the name of 'progress' and in taming the animals... but hey, they employed some of the locals as slaves so really they enlightened their colonies.

    You cannot blame Britain alone. We were part of the UK and were fully involved in any empire building endevours: 12 Irish Regiments founght in the boer wars.
    Fusiliers arch in Stephens green was built to commemorate Dublin soldiers who were killed in South Africa.
    The Royal Irish Regiment were also largely responsible for laying waste to 6000 zulus armed with spears and arrows.

    Also a Tipperary man, Michael O'Dwyer, was a Lietenant Governor of Punjab province in th 1910's. While there he presided over the Jallianwala Bagh massacre where up to a thousand civilians were slaughtered in a punishment reprisal over a recent revolt.

    So you cannot pin it all on the British, we had our hands in the pie too.


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  • #432
    seanhalpin
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 50 ✭✭seanhalpin


    Aphex Tim wrote: »
    Go on ... tell us

    They were just and knew how to run a country.


  • #433
    Nodin
    Closed Accounts Posts: 46,938 ✭✭✭✭Nodin


    seanhalpin wrote: »
    They were just and knew how to run a country.


    ..."just"? I'd suggest you read some South African history.


  • #434
    Aphex Tim
    Closed Accounts Posts: 31 ✭Aphex Tim


    seanhalpin wrote: »
    They were just and knew how to run a country.

    Crime of apartheid

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crime_of_apartheid


  • #435
    karma_
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 6,798 ✭✭✭karma_


    seanhalpin wrote: »
    They were just and knew how to run a country.

    Ahhh it was just the piss you were taking. Well, now I've seen it all on boards, just when I thought I'd already seen everything there comes a poster who tries to call an apartheid regime just. Perhaps StormFront would suit your palate better?


  • #436
    bobbysands81
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,229 ✭✭✭bobbysands81


    seanhalpin wrote: »
    You cannot blame Britain alone. We were part of the UK and were fully involved in any empire building endevours: 12 Irish Regiments founght in the boer wars.
    Fusiliers arch in Stephens green was built to commemorate Dublin soldiers who were killed in South Africa.
    The Royal Irish Regiment were also largely responsible for laying waste to 6000 zulus armed with spears and arrows.

    Also a Tipperary man, Michael O'Dwyer, was a Lietenant Governor of Punjab province in th 1910's. While there he presided over the Jallianwala Bagh massacre where up to a thousand civilians were slaughtered in a punishment reprisal over a recent revolt.

    So you cannot pin it all on the British, we had our hands in the pie too.

    All done in the name of the BRITISH Empire.


  • #437
    bobbysands81
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,229 ✭✭✭bobbysands81


    seanhalpin wrote: »

    I can tell you if were were under France or Spain, we wouldn't have enjoyed such liberties. We'd be begging to join the UK.

    Very selective memory. You conveniently forget how many Irish people have been killed by the hands of Brit forces.

    You seem to have the mindset of the abused wife always making excuses for the abusive husband after he hits her yet again.


  • #438
    Fratton Fred
    Closed Accounts Posts: 26,567 ✭✭✭✭Fratton Fred


    Nodin wrote: »

    No, maybe some of it would go somebody who was involved in this...
    http://www.thenational.ae/news/world/africa/cyprus-torture-victim-still-seeking-uk-apology#page1

    or this
    http://edition.cnn.com/2012/10/05/world/europe/uk-kenya-colonial-case/index.html

    or various events up north.

    You remind me of Scrat. He's the character in ice age that maniacally obsessed with the acorn.


  • #439
    Fratton Fred
    Closed Accounts Posts: 26,567 ✭✭✭✭Fratton Fred


    karma_ wrote: »
    As for the infrastructure, today Ireland has a better infrastructure than much of the UK and the US.

    you were doing ok up to this point :-P


  • #440
    golden lane
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,364 ✭✭✭golden lane


    bobbysands81 wrote: »
    Very selective memory. You conveniently forget how many Irish people have been killed by the hands of Brit forces.

    You seem to have the mindset of the abused wife always making excuses for the abusive husband after he hits her yet again.

    i am an irishman living in the uk......was it fair game for irishmen to kill my children.....????


  • #441
    bobbysands81
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,229 ✭✭✭bobbysands81


    golden lane wrote: »
    i am an irishman living in the uk......was it fair game for irishmen to kill my children.....????

    What a bizarre question. The answer is no by the way.

    What a strange angle you've come at this from.

    If someone attacks your children do you have the right to defend them?

    Also, do/would you wear a poppy?


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  • #442
    ejmaztec
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 24,309 ✭✭✭✭ejmaztec


    karma_ wrote: »
    You're holding Ireland to a different standard.

    1930's - The Great Depression - deepest depression of the 20th Century. Just about to kick-start WW2. Ireland was depressed before and after this period, and mass emigration.
    1950's - Much of Europe destroyed - rebuilding after the War - let's kick off the Korean War - Cold War ramps up. Ireland continues to be depressed, more mass emigration.
    1960's - The US still practice racial segregation, also starts fúckíng around in Vietnam, race riots galore. More depression and mass emigration.
    1980's - yup you guessed it, another Recession, unbeknownst to yourself a worldwide one again. Depressed again and more mass emigration.
    2000-2010 - Recession time again, this time it's a doozy which afflicts just about everyone. Ultimate depression, worse than many others due to it mostly self-inflicted, mass emigration again.

    As for the infrastructure, today Ireland has a better infrastructure than much of the UK and the US. That's hilarious

    :(


  • #443
    philologos
    Closed Accounts Posts: 22,479 ✭✭✭✭philologos


    Sound of Silence wrote: »
    This is not the sole reason, but generally the Unionist Community tend to co-opt the commemorations in a manner that that seems to lend itself to a sort of Ulster-Scotch-centric "cultural expression", which in my view blurs the lines of integrity.

    If it's not the traditional laying of the wreath by members of the Orange Order, it's bizarre displays like this that seems to shake the line of who's service is being celebrated : http://tinyurl.com/ca55uye

    I don't know why you're informing me of Ulster Scots culture or the Orange Order. Neither of which is influential in my thinking and certainly don't inform Irish people who do decide to wear the poppy in the Republic. The "unionist community" is also something that doesn't affect my thinking.
    Sound of Silence wrote: »
    The fact that a significant number of poster on this thread have begun to attack the idea of Irish Independence as being something which is entirely suspect and unnatural, will give you an idea of where the more vocal advocates of the commemorative Poppy tend to come from when they hope to pitch the idea to the Irish. That's simply my opinion.

    I don't attack Irish independence. I think that was achieved primarily through hard work in parliament, not by militant activity.

    The use of "they" is wrong. Irish people themselves wear poppies. The people who sell them in Ireland are for the most part Irish.
    Sound of Silence wrote: »
    Congratulations, your interest in fair and critical assessment lasted all of three lines before you presented us with the ultimate culprit in a conflict so twisted and convoluted that most Historians are hesitant to touch it.

    Not at all. I don't believe the IRA were the only party. I think that it is worth mentioning them when people blame Britain entirely for the Troubles though.
    Sound of Silence wrote: »
    I'm sure I can discover another way of honoring the dead of both World Wars which doesn't necessitate me wearing a Poppy.

    I've told you time and time again that I really don't care if you don't wear it.
    Sound of Silence wrote: »
    http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=81374251&postcount=161

    I don't recall questioning your Irishness.

    Why are you posting about ethnicity again? That's what I asked you. You've done this three times without explaining why you're doing this. Ethnicity has no role in my view of this as I'm about as Irish as anyone else posting.

    Please explain to me why you're posting this in response to me if you're going to do this again? :confused:
    Sound of Silence wrote: »
    I believe that to be a Nationalist, one must at least be favorably disposed to the idea of a United Ireland. You can support the existence of the Irish Republic to some degree, but ultimately be Partitionist in nature, similar to the likes of Thomas Westropp Bennett and Conor Cruise O'Brien.

    I support the people of Northern Ireland making up their own mind. It's none of my business. That doesn't make me unionist or nationalist, it just means I support their own democratic will. I don't think it's going to happen any time soon though.
    Sound of Silence wrote: »
    And before you say anything, I'm in no way claiming that you're not a Nationalist. I'm simply pointing something out in the interest of full disclosure.

    What are you saying about me then? :)

    I don't think you are fully disclosing anything. You've posted about ethnicity, unionism the Orange Order and anything else under the sun even after I've told you that neither affect my thinking.
    Sound of Silence wrote: »
    If it's sufficient for you, then that's fine. It does not necessarily mean that I should also consider it to be a fair and acceptable compromise.

    I never said you should. I've told you that multiple times. I don't care whether or not you do.
    Sound of Silence wrote: »
    Bring the general outline of that argument to it's logical conclusion, then substitute the phrase "Easter Lilly" with "Commemorative Poppy", and the concern for the "Destruction of a City" with "violence and collusion" and you might begin to understand where I'm coming from.

    It's not the concern. I don't consider the 1916 Rising as being hugely significant in securing Ireland's independence. I don't see it as being something that I would commemorate. Most Dubliners didn't want it at the time. I'm not hugely exercised by it, I just don't pay a whole lot of attention to it. I think there's a lot of propaganda surrounding it.

    Wearing the poppy does not mean that you support everything the British army did. What it does mean is that you'll remember those who died in the futility of war. At least that's how I understand it.


  • #444
    Nodin
    Closed Accounts Posts: 46,938 ✭✭✭✭Nodin


    philologos wrote: »

    It's not the concern. I don't consider the 1916 Rising as being hugely significant in securing Ireland's independence. I don't see it as being something that I would commemorate. Most Dubliners didn't want it at the time. I'm not hugely exercised by it, I just don't pay a whole lot of attention to it. I think there's a lot of propaganda surrounding it.

    Wearing the poppy does not mean that you support everything the British army did. What it does mean is that you'll remember those who died in the futility of war. At least that's how I understand it.

    Yeah, its shame you couldn't have your propaganda detector on a neutral setting.

    Your understanding is flawed. Art is open to intepretation, the stated aims of an organisation far less so.

    "Shoulder to shoulder with those who serve"

    "Providing welfare, comradeship, representation and Remembrance for the Armed Forces community"

    And the purpose of the "poppy appeal"?

    "Each year, we are humbled by the overwhelming amount of money raised during the Poppy Appeal, which funds life-changing projects in support of our Armed Forces. "
    http://www.britishlegion.org.uk/about-us/media-centre/news/poppy-appeal/poppy-appeal-2011-smashes-all-records-to-reach-%C2%A338-million


  • #445
    Japer
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 792 ✭✭✭Japer


    seanhalpin wrote: »
    You cannot blame Britain alone. We were part of the UK and were fully involved in any empire building endevours: 12 Irish Regiments founght in the boer wars.
    Fusiliers arch in Stephens green was built to commemorate Dublin soldiers who were killed in South Africa.
    The Royal Irish Regiment were also largely responsible for laying waste to 6000 zulus armed with spears and arrows.

    Also a Tipperary man, Michael O'Dwyer, was a Lietenant Governor of Punjab province in th 1910's. While there he presided over the Jallianwala Bagh massacre where up to a thousand civilians were slaughtered in a punishment reprisal over a recent revolt.

    So you cannot pin it all on the British, we had our hands in the pie too.

    Well said. Something like a third of the British administration in India was composed of Irish people, so we can hold our heads high in the knowledge we helped bring the British system of law and order, education, railways, engineering etc to the sub-continent.
    Hundreds of thousands of Irishmen served in the British forces over the years. Lots of Irish people served in American and Australian forces too, among other armies. Just because our government dids not play an active part in standing up to Nazism, coummunism etc does not mean we should ignore those who did. Many Irish people in British uniforms gave their lives fighting Nazism, so you can live in the peace and comfort you live in today.


  • #446
    Aodh Rua
    Closed Accounts Posts: 71 ✭✭Aodh Rua


    golden lane wrote: »
    i am an irishman living in the uk
    golden lane wrote: »
    they want the british out of norther ireland........i am the british, it is my country..

    :rolleyes:


  • #447
    M three
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,142 ✭✭✭M three


    Would I wear a poppy?
    **** no.
    For the same reason an english person wouldnt wear an easter lilly.

    Wheres that poll?


  • #448
    karma_
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 6,798 ✭✭✭karma_


    Fratton Fred wrote: »
    you were doing ok up to this point :-P

    It's not that controversial an opinion Fred, Ireland's infrastructure is modern, it outstrips anything we have up here in nordy land, that is a fact. I've not spent much time in the UK but I would hazard a guess much of the infrastructure is older. I have lived in the US and it's no secret that they need to heavily invest in their infrastructure for much of it is very old.


  • #449
    Aodh Rua
    Closed Accounts Posts: 71 ✭✭Aodh Rua


    philologos wrote: »
    Wearing the poppy does not mean that you support everything the British army did. What it does mean is that you'll remember those who died in the futility of war. At least that's how I understand it.

    Are you really trying to contend that wearing the Royal British Legion's red poppy means you commemorate all those who died in war, including Russian soldiers, IRA volunteers, ANC activists, Mau Mau insurgents, German soldiers...?

    If you really believe that, then you're wearing the wrong symbol because the RBL's red poppy specifically only commemorates those who fought for the British Empire/Commonwealth/state. Why are you trying to portray it as an inclusive commemoration of all victims of war, when even the RBL which produces the red poppy explicitly only commemorates the dead on the British (and not even the Allied - Russians are excluded) side?


  • #450
    Japer
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 792 ✭✭✭Japer


    the vast number of Irish people who served in wars - hundreds of thousands of them - did so by volunteering and by wearing British army / navy / air force uniforms. Relatively few died in Russian uniforms, although a father of a friend was an Irish man who served on the (British) arctic convoys which supplied Russia in her hour of need.


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  • #451
    Aodh Rua
    Closed Accounts Posts: 71 ✭✭Aodh Rua


    Japer wrote: »
    the vast number of Irish people who served in wars - hundreds of thousands of them - did so by volunteering and by wearing British army / navy / air force uniforms. Relatively few died in Russian uniforms, although a father of a friend was an Irish man who served on the (British) arctic convoys which supplied Russia in her hour of need.

    So, if they were Irish born and helped deny freedom to people somewhere in the world as a member of the British Empire's forces they should nevertheless be commemorated by Irish people simply because of their birth? It doesn't matter what humanity they inflicted in the name of British imperialism, they deserve commemoration due to some tribal/ethnic characteristic?

    Is that really the level of thought and ethics at work here?


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