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Why would an Irish person wear a poppy ?
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There are people knocking about today who are older than the Irish state itself, you would expect a new state to have many problems in its infancy, Ireland will get there, and faster than most nations.
I think many people would agree that Ireland as a whole, NI included, has gone backwards in many respects since the 26 county state was established. I have no doubt that if all of Ireland had remained in the UK (even if that meant a devolved northern and southern governments ala 1920 GoI act) Ireland would have enjoyed much greater progress, development and prosperity.
The difficulties of war, poor governance, regressive and backward social policy and incompetence resulted in the state being an economic and social backwater for most of the 20th century.
I mean FFS ireland was the only European country to have a steadily declining population whereas practically every other place was increasing.
OFF TOPIC: I know but what always baffles me is why the UK Government and its forces gave up so easily in the war. I mean they were vastly superior in terms of manpower, experience, materiel and technology and were probably at their peak of their military power having just finished WWI. Why ddid they throw in the towel so easily when their opponent were largly pooly trained (if at all), poorly equiped farmer boys with nothing besides second hand small arms.
If they had fought for another 10 days, we'd be living in a vastly different Ireland.
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Sound of Silence wrote: »I'll be honest here and say that I have no idea what qualifies as anti-Irish any more. The lines between legitimate criticism and blind hatred have become so blurred that it's pretty pointless in calling it out. The topic itself evokes some kind of weird and twisted version of Poe's laws, where the lines between and parody and reality are pretty non-existent.
This might not be the case for everyone. I've spoken to a well known Unionist poster on this site who claims that being Anti-British essentially boils down to being "overly critical" of the UK.
What ultimately matters is respecting the views of individuals, as long as their capable of providing a reasonable arguement.
I'm curious as to why you keep bringing up Unionism in this discussion, particularly when you respond to my posts.
Sound of Silence wrote: »And whilst I've continued to address the inherent flaws in the British Military, you will notice that not once have I urged you or anyone else here to wear an Easter Lilly. Clearly that's what differentiates us two. I happen to understand that the Easter Lilly can often be an inherently political or emotionally charged symbol, even when some of it's advocates claim otherwise; and for that reason I will never wear it, nor shall I ever condescend to someone who refuses to honour the memory of "our Nation's martyrs".
I've not urged you to wear the poppy once. I said rather clearly I don't care if you don't wear it, that's your choice. What I do oppose is ignorant comments surrounding it.
I don't wear it to support the British military and I never have.Sound of Silence wrote: »What's interesting is that throughout your argument you've continually urged me to ignore the less admirable actions of the British Military in favour of it's seemingly more apparent triumphs. Has the irony of this evaded you completely? Forgive me, but I will continue to explain to you that the British Armed Forces have written their own history in Northern Ireland, quite often in blood, but most often in it's quite favourable approach to collusion.
Not at all. I've acknowledged that they've done things that were wrong. Most people on thread were doing that already. I'm interested in balance, fair and critical assessment of all sides.
I've already touched on this in my posts already.Sound of Silence wrote: »Whilst I can no doubt look admirably at the actions of service people both here in Ireland and in Britain during the First and Second World Wars, I simply can't ignore the conflict in Northern Ireland at a whim, especially when it's had such a profound and lasting impact on my Community.
It's by and large done, and much of it was instigated by the INLA / IRA / RIRA or whatever else they've branded themselves as. Looking at both sides and giving fair consideration is appropriate.
I don't claim and I haven't that British history is all rosy. Read my posts rather than what you want my posts to say.Sound of Silence wrote: »I've already addressed this point in a response to LordSutch.
I'm not going to trawl through posts to do so, but I wear it as an remembrance of past conflict, and the futility of war, not to "glorify Britain".Sound of Silence wrote: »I've already discussed the topic of Irish ethnicity with you before. I had even posted a link to one of my previous comments.
Why did you do that again? I'm as Irish as you are.Sound of Silence wrote: »When the Nationalist community is continually urged to ignore frankly huge swathes of Irish history in favour of a few select instances of British generosity, then it's going to be pretty difficult to begin reconciling our differences. The microcosm of Anglo-Irish relations which is the Stormont electorate will give you an idea of how painful and slow this dialogue continues to be.
I don't know why you keep bringing up "the nationalist" community. I support the 26 county republic.Sound of Silence wrote: »When people ask us, in the interest of a faux progressive attitude, to simply treat the whole topic with a nonchalant approach, I can't help but feel that the lives of all those lost during the Troubles are pretty much cheapened and forgotten. What has been learned? We've only managed to come this far by actually addressing issues, rather than ignoring them.
I think when it involves ignorant comments about wearing a poppy which is entirely unrelated to unionism.Utter rubiush.
I don't care how you regard my opinion of it to be honest.The Poppy is used by the British establishment as a powerful propaganda tool for "our brave lads" in Iraq or whatever imperialist jaunt they are off on. Its nothig less than a recruitment drive and an attempt to link the superheroes who are off murdering in the middle east, who murdered in Ireland, kenya etc by linking them and portraying them as the same as the people who fought in WW1 and WW2.
The reality is it's based on a Canadian's poem. It's used to remember the dead at war. That's all.If you really wanted to remember the "futility of war" you wouldnt wear a British Nationalist symbol like the poppy, which glorifies the British army but would instead wear something like the White Poppy.
Why? The red poppy is sufficient. It does what I need it to. I'm not so foaming at the mouth against the British army to do anything else. I don't wear it to glorify the British army, but to remember. That's all.Another thing, it takes an extraordinary amount of double think for people to refuse to wear Lilies because they have been "tainted" yet would wear poppies - if one is tainted the other surely is, or does the British army's hi-jinks in Kenya, Afghanistan, The North etc etc etc not matter?
I don't wear a lily because I don't see why the Easter Rising was such a great thing. It brought destruction to a city which largely didn't want it. If people think the Easter Rising is great, and so on, good on them. I don't share that view.0 -
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philologos wrote: »I'm curious as to why you keep bringing up Unionism in this discussion, particularly when you respond to my posts.
This is not the sole reason, but generally the Unionist Community tend to co-opt the commemorations in a manner that that seems to lend itself to a sort of Ulster-Scotch-centric "cultural expression", which in my view blurs the lines of integrity.
If it's not the traditional laying of the wreath by members of the Orange Order, it's bizarre displays like this that seems to shake the line of who's service is being celebrated : http://tinyurl.com/ca55uye
The fact that a significant number of poster on this thread have begun to attack the idea of Irish Independence as being something which is entirely suspect and unnatural, will give you an idea of where the more vocal advocates of the commemorative Poppy tend to come from when they hope to pitch the idea to the Irish. That's simply my opinion.Not at all. I've acknowledged that they've done things that were wrong. Most people on thread were doing that already. I'm interested in balance, fair and critical assessment of all sides.
It's by and large done, and much of it was instigated by the INLA / IRA / RIRA or whatever else they've branded themselves as. Looking at both sides and giving fair consideration is appropriate.
Congratulations, your interest in fair and critical assessment lasted all of three lines before you presented us with the ultimate culprit in a conflict so twisted and convoluted that most Historians are hesitant to touch it.I don't claim and I haven't that British history is all rosy. Read my posts rather than what you want my posts to say.
Okay, I must admit that this discussion is devolving incredibly quickly. On numerous occasions I've pointed out that my criticisms of the British Army are quite select and that I'm willing to show respect for those members of the Military who happened to have lost their lives during their service in both the First and Second World Wars, whether they happen to be Irish or English.
My objections arise due to the fact that the Remembrance Day Commemorations are inherently carried out without qualification. I would ultimately be honoring the lives of Soldiers who had continually found themselves to be significant players in the context of the Troubles.
I'm sure I can discover another way of honoring the dead of both World Wars which doesn't necessitate me wearing a Poppy.I'm not going to trawl through posts to do so, but I wear it as an remembrance of past conflict, and the futility of war, not to "glorify Britain".
Why did you do that again? I'm as Irish as you are.
http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=81374251&postcount=161
I don't recall questioning your Irishness.I don't know why you keep bringing up "the nationalist" community. I support the 26 county republic.
I believe that to be a Nationalist, one must at least be favorably disposed to the idea of a United Ireland. You can support the existence of the Irish Republic to some degree, but ultimately be Partitionist in nature, similar to the likes of Thomas Westropp Bennett and Conor Cruise O'Brien.
And before you say anything, I'm in no way claiming that you're not a Nationalist. I'm simply pointing something out in the interest of full disclosure.Why? The red poppy is sufficient. It does what I need it to. I'm not so foaming at the mouth against the British army to do anything else. I don't wear it to glorify the British army, but to remember. That's all.
If it's sufficient for you, then that's fine. It does not necessarily mean that I should also consider it to be a fair and acceptable compromise.I don't wear a lily because I don't see why the Easter Rising was such a great thing. It brought destruction to a city which largely didn't want it. If people think the Easter Rising is great, and so on, good on them. I don't share that view.
Bring the general outline of that argument to it's logical conclusion, then substitute the phrase "Easter Lilly" with "Commemorative Poppy", and the concern for the "Destruction of a City" with "violence and collusion" and you might begin to understand where I'm coming from.0
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