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Why would an Irish person wear a poppy ?

1…6791112…54

Comments

  • #242
    Sheeps
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,763 ✭✭✭Sheeps


    gobnaitolunacy wrote: »
    Oh?
    http://www.amazon.com/Lives-Hitlers-Jewish-Soldiers-Descent/dp/0700616381

    Right, back to the thread.

    My point is that Jews fighting for Hitler is ultimately a paradox where as Irish men fighting for the British Army is not.


  • #243
    Sound of Silence
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,192 ✭✭✭Sound of Silence


    It would seem that an Irishman's worth is measured by what he does for Britain.

    Certain posters on this forum have little positive things to say about Ireland and the Irish, and often hope to ignore or disregard the crimes of our former ruler, but the moment it's discovered that an Irishman fought for Queen and Country, they are treated with the utmost respect and admiration.

    The Irish have traditionally fought on many sides of many conflicts, and their deaths have often gone unnoticed and unrecorded; but for their families, their memory will continue to live on. I imagine that for this, they don't need a plastic Poppy or any other piece of memorabilia.

    This is without mentioning the fact that the Poppy often carries a Political and emotional weight both here in the North as well as the South. Wearing it often serves as tacit approval of the less than admirable actions of the British forces against people who are still mourning the death of loved ones. In essence, the Easter Lilly would be as welcome in the Shankhill as the Poppy would be in Derry or Ballymurphy.


  • #244
    old hippy
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 9,441 ✭✭✭old hippy


    Irishmen fought on both sides of the Boer war, the Spanish Civil War, the American Civil War...

    War is hell. Time to move on, uber patriots or otherwise.


  • #245
    golden lane
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,364 ✭✭✭golden lane


    the black and tans.......were mostly from scotland and wales.....

    what a complicated world we live in.......


  • #246
    Chuck Stone
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13,029 ✭✭✭✭Chuck Stone


    gallag wrote: »
    the British showed a lot of restraint.

    I'll play.

    They British didn't have much choice but to be 'restrained' (if you'd call their behaviour restrained at all). They didn't want the conflict spilling into Britain any more than it already had.

    I'd imagine scenes of the British army getting 'South American' with the natives would have just driven more and more people into the IRA both in Ireland and Britain with the diaspora working from abroad to supply it with cash and weaponry.

    A large scale insurgency in civilised Britain in the 20th Century? No, no that just wouldn't do.


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  • #247
    old hippy
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 9,441 ✭✭✭old hippy


    golden lane wrote: »
    the black and tans.......were mostly from scotland and wales.....

    what a complicated world we live in.......

    Not really. We're human. We dispute territories and ideologies, we like to do battle and make money.


  • #248
    philologos
    Closed Accounts Posts: 22,479 ✭✭✭✭philologos


    Sound of Silence wrote: »
    It would seem that an Irishman's worth is measured by what he does for Britain.

    Certain posters on this forum have little positive things to say about Ireland and the Irish, and often hope to ignore or disregard the crimes of our former ruler, but the moment it's discovered that an Irishman fought for Queen and Country, they are treated with the utmost respect and admiration.

    The Irish have traditionally fought on many sides of many conflicts, and their deaths have often gone unnoticed and unrecorded; but for their families, their memory will continue to live on. I imagine that for this, they don't need a plastic Poppy or any other piece of memorabilia.

    This is without mentioning the fact that the Poppy often carries a Political and emotional weight both here in the North as well as the South. Wearing it often serves as tacit approval of the less than admirable actions of the British forces against people who are still mourning the death of loved ones. In essence, the Easter Lilly would be as welcome in the Shankhill as the Poppy would be in Derry or Ballymurphy.

    Again if you actually read the posts on this thread you'd have learned that the poppy is an internationally used symbol not just in Britain.

    As for your claim that some posters haven't been complementary to Irish people or Ireland that's nonsense. I'm Irish myself. What I am opposed to is imposing a limited understanding of Irish history and how Irish people should understand other nations. That narrow understanding of saying you can't do X, Y and Z and still be Irish is what turns me off. I don't have to accept a biased approach to Irish history or wear rose tinted glasses.


  • #249
    golden lane
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,364 ✭✭✭golden lane


    old hippy wrote: »
    Not really. We're human. We dispute territories and ideologies, we like to do battle and make money.


    in custers seventh cavalry........protestants were more likely to be the leaders, and catholic's the rank and file.....


  • #250
    bobbysands81
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,229 ✭✭✭bobbysands81


    gallag wrote: »
    I often wonder if things would have been a lot worse for the nationalists in ni if it was not the British army fighting a guerilla war in its own territory. I would think things could have been a lot worse, sure there were bad choices but I can't help but think with the IRA bombing civilian and security forces without thought for any convention or caring for morals the British showed a lot of restraint. Could have been handled better for sure but I would think if it was a Russian or American or Chinese etc government fighting a guerilla war in its own territory things could have been a lot worse.

    Surly even the most hardline nationalists understand the IRA forced the British into a dirty war, it's not like the said let's meet in a field and duke it out. I am sure the British would have rather got on with democracy with the hope of off loading the tax drain that is ni.

    Anyone that disagrees could tell me how you would have fought against the IRA on a murder campaign without any collateral damage?

    'The IRA forced the British into a dirty war'.

    So you think the IRA started the war?

    Here's a strange hypothesis... maybe if Britain had not invaded Ireland then there would have been no war.

    Jeez, you've obviously no understanding of what happened up the north.


  • #251
    bobbysands81
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,229 ✭✭✭bobbysands81


    Irish Republicans died so Irish people could have freedoms such as to wear a poppy if they want to.


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  • #252
    Iwasfrozen
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 16,250 ✭✭✭✭Iwasfrozen


    bobbysands81 wrote: »
    Irish Republicans died so Irish people could have freedoms such as to wear a poppy if they want to.
    We had that freedom anyway. Irish republicans died so they could draw a convex line on the map from Derry to Newry.


  • #253
    Sheeps
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,763 ✭✭✭Sheeps


    bobbysands81 wrote: »
    'The IRA forced the British into a dirty war'.

    So you think the IRA started the war?

    Here's a strange hypothesis... maybe if Britain had not invaded Ireland then there would have been no war.

    Jeez, you've obviously no understanding of what happened up the north.

    Trust someone with bobby sands in their username to come up with that kind of shite.


  • #254
    Sound of Silence
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,192 ✭✭✭Sound of Silence


    gallag wrote: »
    Anyone that disagrees could tell me how you would have fought against the IRA on a murder campaign without any collateral damage?

    Your point is entirely irrelevant to the thread, but I will entertain it.

    I think the most appropriate and sensible thing to do would have been to address the views of the NICRA in a civilised and restrained manner. What the British did do was to assist Loyalist mobs in attacking and terrorising the most popular and pacifist Nationalist movement in Northern Ireland, then effectively end their eight year long protest for Civil Rights in a hail of gunfire in Derry. You argue that the "British were forced to fight dirty", yet this one action provided the PIRA with it's greatest recruitment tool.

    Unionists in Stormont could also have begun to pave the road to peace and reconciliation by not throwing the Sunningdale Agreement out the window, which would've provided an avenue for Power-Sharing in the North. The Agreement itself was supported by a significant proportion of the Nationalist electorate, when the SDLP were still Northern Ireland's largest Nationalist Party by a huge margin.

    Operation Demetrius, or internment without trial, was also a huge misstep by the British Government in 1971. Not only was it a catalyst for the acceleration of radical Republicanism, but it was also widely condemned as "inhumane and degrading" as well as "torture" by the European Court for Human Rights. Of the almost 2,000 people who were interned without trial, often with little or no evidence to support their imprisonment, only 100 were Protestants. Brian Faulkner, the then Minister for Northern Ireland, had insisted that Unionists and suspected Loyalist Paramilitaries be excluded from the trawl. It could hardly be considered equal policing.

    I could go on further but, as I said, it's irrelevant to the thread.


  • #255
    bobbysands81
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,229 ✭✭✭bobbysands81


    Sheeps wrote: »

    Trust someone with bobby sands in their username to come up with that kind of shite.

    So my username somehow invalidates my point? How so?


  • #256
    bobbysands81
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,229 ✭✭✭bobbysands81


    Iwasfrozen wrote: »
    We had that freedom anyway. Irish republicans died so they could draw a convex line on the map from Derry to Newry.

    If we were all equal what was the Civil Rights Movement all about?


  • #257
    Iwasfrozen
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 16,250 ✭✭✭✭Iwasfrozen


    bobbysands81 wrote: »
    If we were all equal what was the Civil Rights Movement all about?
    I never said everyone was equal. I said people already had the right to wear a poppy. Irish republicans had nothing to do with it. But it's not "we" I don't live in the UK.


  • #258
    old hippy
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 9,441 ✭✭✭old hippy


    When I read threads and arguments like this one, I am made yet more certain that The Republic and NI/6 counties will never be united. Sure, people south of the border aren't even united. ;)

    But that's good, though, isn't it? Despite it being sad to see the same old arguments trotted out again and again ad infinuitum... it's good that we all hold differing opinions...

    To me, Ireland is already united. We have the 26 counties and that's fine. Let the 6 counties go their own way, be apart from the UK but not part of us.


  • #259
    bobbysands81
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,229 ✭✭✭bobbysands81


    Iwasfrozen wrote: »
    I never said everyone was equal. I said people already had the right to wear a poppy. Irish republicans had nothing to do with it. But it's not "we" I don't live in the UK.

    Neither do I, I'm Irish.


  • #260
    Jimoslimos
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,930 ✭✭✭Jimoslimos


    Fratton Fred wrote: »

    Really? Why all the mention of Afghanistan then?
    You do know the difference between the UN and NATO?


  • #261
    bobbysands81
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,229 ✭✭✭bobbysands81


    Iwasfrozen wrote: »
    I never said everyone was equal. I said people already had the right to wear a poppy. Irish republicans had nothing to do with it. But it's not "we" I don't live in the UK.

    Irish Republicans had everything to do with the writing of our Constitution which confers our freedoms on us.


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  • #262
    Sound of Silence
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,192 ✭✭✭Sound of Silence


    philologos wrote: »
    Again if you actually read the posts on this thread you'd have learned that the poppy is an internationally used symbol not just in Britain.

    And by that I assume you mean the Commonwealth of Nations.
    As for your claim that some posters haven't been complementary to Irish people or Ireland that's nonsense. I'm Irish myself. What I am opposed to is imposing a limited understanding of Irish history and how Irish people should understand other nations. That narrow understanding of saying you can't do X, Y and Z and still be Irish is what turns me off. I don't have to accept a biased approach to Irish history or wear rose tinted glasses.

    I believe you are being incredibly myopic. It seems that you are very limited in your ability to understand the perspective that other people might have. I'm stating that wearing a Poppy in my local area would be considered highly offensive, as there are people here who have actually had family members and friends killed and harassed by the British Army.

    My wearing of the Poppy would be considered tacit support of this fact, regardless of the pretences that the Royal Legion operates under.

    It's simply insensitive. What's so hard to understand about that?

    Instead you've confused my opposition to the wearing of the Poppy with an attack on Irish ethnicity. I've went into detail on my views regarding Irish ethnicity in some of my previous posts, here:

    http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=81374251&postcount=161


  • #263
    Sound of Silence
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,192 ✭✭✭Sound of Silence


    old hippy wrote: »
    To me, Ireland is already united. We have the 26 counties and that's fine. Let the 6 counties go their own way, be apart from the UK but not part of us.

    I believe only a few people posting on this thread are from the North, including myself. It seems that the argument is arising between people living in the South, as well as a few English posters thrown in for good measure.


  • #264
    Iwasfrozen
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 16,250 ✭✭✭✭Iwasfrozen


    bobbysands81 wrote: »
    Irish Republicans had everything to do with the writing of our Constitution which confers our freedoms on us.
    Then if you live in the Republic why did you say the civil rights movement gave you the right to wear a poppy? The civil rights movement only took place in Northern Ireland and they weren't too interested in poppies.


  • #265
    getz
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,255 ✭✭✭getz


    golden lane wrote: »
    in custers seventh cavalry........protestants were more likely to be the leaders, and catholic's the rank and file.....
    custer was a catholic


  • #266
    old hippy
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 9,441 ✭✭✭old hippy


    Sound of Silence wrote: »
    I believe only a few people posting on this thread are from the North, including myself. It seems that the argument is arising between people living in the South, as well as a few English posters thrown in for good measure.

    Well, why not give everyone a say - nobody's going to agree at the end of the day.


  • #267
    Sheeps
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,763 ✭✭✭Sheeps


    bobbysands81 wrote: »
    So my username somehow invalidates my point? How so?

    I associate the fact that you made a concious decision to include bobby sands in your username when signing up to boards.ie and the fact that you probably thought it was a good idea, with the type of person that you are. I was not commenting on the point you made (or didn't make for that matter).

    Your comment that Britain started the war of Irish Independence is absolutely absurd, by the way. It's a complete fallacy. It makes absolutely no sense.


  • #268
    bobbysands81
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,229 ✭✭✭bobbysands81


    Iwasfrozen wrote: »
    Then if you live in the Republic why did you say the civil rights movement gave you the right to wear a poppy? The civil rights movement only took place in Northern Ireland and they weren't too interested in poppies.

    In trying to jump in quickly you didn't read my post properly.


  • #269
    philologos
    Closed Accounts Posts: 22,479 ✭✭✭✭philologos


    Sound of Silence wrote: »

    And by that I assume you mean the Commonwealth of Nations.



    I believe you are being incredibly myopic. It seems that you are very limited in your ability to understand the perspective that other people might have. I'm stating that wearing a Poppy in my local area would be considered highly offensive, as there are people here who have actually had family members and friends killed and harassed by the British Army.

    My wearing of the Poppy would be considered tacit support of this fact, regardless of the pretences that the Royal Legion operates under.

    It's simply insensitive. What's so hard to understand about that?

    Instead you've confused my opposition to the wearing of the Poppy with an attack on Irish ethnicity. I've went into detail on my views regarding Irish ethnicity in some of my previous posts, here:

    http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=81374251&postcount=161

    There's nothing myopic about it. The poppy is used globally (not just in commonwealth) to remember the dead at war.

    As for it being offensive, sometimes things will he offensive and you have to step over a few sacred cows in the process. The raw fact of the matter is that the IRA had a role in this conflict as did other militants at the start of the 20th century and even before. In many ways it was a war of two sides. Brushing over IRA instigated violence is and shouldn't be appropriate when we're actually considering the reality of what happened irrespective of who that offends.

    In terms of the poppy, it was something noticed quite a bit when I was growing up in Ireland even if it was a minority practice. It's not just a British thing to do.


  • #270
    Iwasfrozen
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 16,250 ✭✭✭✭Iwasfrozen


    bobbysands81 wrote: »
    In trying to jump in quickly you didn't read my post properly.
    I read it pretty clearly "Irish Republicans died so Irish people could have freedoms such as to wear a poppy if they want to." We had that freedom anyway.


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  • #271
    getz
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,255 ✭✭✭getz


    old hippy wrote: »
    Well, why not give everyone a say - nobody's going to agree at the end of the day.
    i believe the bets are out this year if the irish president will be wearing a poppy this year,at the moment he is in belfast giving a talk for the british council at queens university ,president higgins lecture will concentrate on how ireland will emerge from a difficult past with culture as one of the engines of growth,i think he has got his hands full


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