Why would an Irish person wear a poppy ?

philologos · 29-10-2012 09:39PM

My name is URL wrote: »

The day the British stop brushing over the atrocities carried out by their own lot; and romanticizing wars & conflicts then I'll show some degree of respect for the Poppy and its wearers.

To be honest with you. This stuff just puts me into more and more disillusionment in terms of what many other Irish people think about Irish identity. It seems like to be Irish is point out how much you're not British. It's a bit ridiculous when one thinks about it objectively.

It would be a great day when we as Irish people can finally put what happened decades, or in many cases centuries ago in the past where they belong.

karma_ · 29-10-2012 09:43PM

Micky Dolenz wrote: »

The poppy represents all those lost.

I believe that the poppy does nothing more than to pay lip service to all those thousands butchered. If we truly wanted to honour those men then the only acceptable way to do so would be to stop sending young men and women off to fight in wars.

During the poppy season I always remind myself of Rudyard Kipling, who campaigned enthusiastically during WW1, going so far as to pull strings to get his young son commissioned to be an officer and send him off to war.

Unfortunately the last time he was seen was walking around in no mans land with his face blown off. Where's the honour in that?

Unfortunately for that old bastard Kipling, this STILL wasn't enough and he campaigned further for the war effort. Talk about insanity.

Lelantos · 29-10-2012 09:54PM

karma_ wrote: »

I believe that the poppy does nothing more than to pay lip service to all those thousands butchered. If we truly wanted to honour those men then the only acceptable way to do so would be to stop sending young men and women off to fight in wars.

During the poppy season I always remind myself of Rudyard Kipling, who campaigned enthusiastically during WW1, going so far as to pull strings to get his young son commissioned to be an officer and send him off to war.

Unfortunately the last time he was seen was walking around in no mans land with his face blown off. Where's the honour in that?

Unfortunately for that old bastard Kipling, this STILL wasn't enough and he campaigned further for the war effort. Talk about insanity.

Kiplings son wanted to fight, but was short sighted, Rudyard did pull some strings to get him in, but when he died he realised his mistake & wrote about it. But, still, this has nothing to do with wearing, or not wearing a poppy. If you don't wish to, fine, but if others do, then so be it. Not your place, or mine to say no.

Micky Dolenz · 29-10-2012 10:13PM

karma_ wrote: »

I believe that the poppy does nothing more than to pay lip service to all those thousands butchered. If we truly wanted to honour those men then the only acceptable way to do so would be to stop sending young men and women off to fight in wars.

During the poppy season I always remind myself of Rudyard Kipling, who campaigned enthusiastically during WW1, going so far as to pull strings to get his young son commissioned to be an officer and send him off to war.

Unfortunately the last time he was seen was walking around in no mans land with his face blown off. Where's the honour in that?

Unfortunately for that old bastard Kipling, this STILL wasn't enough and he campaigned further for the war effort. Talk about insanity.

As a continent, we have come light years in 50-100 years. By and large Europeans have learnt that the best way to proceed is in peace and unity with each other.

Our history is blood soaked for sure, with tens and hundreds of milillions souls lost. That's one positive thing about the EU. The alturnative should not be an option.

Visited this museum recently. http://www.greatwar.co.uk/ypres-salient/museum-in-flanders-fields.htm. The poppy isn't solely a British thing.

Nodin · 29-10-2012 10:24PM

philologos wrote: »

To be honest with you. This stuff just puts me into more and more disillusionment in terms of what many other Irish people think about Irish identity. It seems like to be Irish is point out how much you're not British. It's a bit ridiculous when one thinks about it objectively.

It would be a great day when we as Irish people can finally put what happened decades, or in many cases centuries ago in the past where they belong.

...where did he mention Ireland in that bit you quoted? Did you read my earlier posts on the thread....?

My name is URL · 29-10-2012 10:25PM

philologos wrote: »

To be honest with you. This stuff just puts me into more and more disillusionment in terms of what many other Irish people think about Irish identity. It seems like to be Irish is point out how much you're not British. It's a bit ridiculous when one thinks about it objectively.

It would be a great day when we as Irish people can finally put what happened decades, or in many cases centuries ago in the past where they belong.

As hard as it may be for you to believe, my opinions on the subject are not based on the fact that I am Irish. My own great-grandfather fought at Somme, and at the same time his brother was fighting for the IRB. They both fought their own fights for their own reasons.. neither of them necessarily represent my views or what I claim to stand for. My family have get togethers every year on the anniversary of their deaths. It's possible to remember and pay respect to your fallen ancestors without pandering to the overall perpetual systems that they were part of.

The Poppy or any other general form of mass 'remembrance' do not just represent the stuff we agree with and want to hang on to.. they also give the nod to the horrible atrocities carried out during the years; in the name of blind and willful ignorance patriotism.

philologos · 29-10-2012 10:38PM

My name is URL wrote: »

As hard as it may be for you to believe, my opinions on the subject are not based on the fact that I am Irish. My own great-grandfather fought at Somme, and at the same time his brother was fighting for the IRB. They both fought their own fights for their own reasons.. neither of them necessarily represent my views or what I claim to stand for. My family have get togethers every year on the anniversary of their deaths. It's possible to remember and pay respect to your fallen ancestors without pandering to the overall perpetual systems that they were part of.

The Poppy or any other general form of mass 'remembrance' do not just represent the stuff we agree with and want to hang on to.. they also give the nod to the horrible atrocities carried out during the years; in the name of blind and willful ignorance patriotism.

I know fine well what the poppy commemorates. I remember seeing it quite a bit while growing up. What was also useful was Remembrance Sunday where a key theme of the service was generally the futility and the tragedy of war. Contrary to another poster, it isn't just for soldiers. One could see this if they popped into their local Church of Ireland church on the 11th of November. It's not "pandering" to any system, contrary to how many people might want to claim that.

On this thread, we've seen the typical "I'm not Irish because I don't do this thing that a lot of British people do". Or the idea that if one wears a poppy that they are glorifying past violence against Irish people. This is what I find off putting about it all, and about how many Irish people create this "Irish" identity, that everyone most hold to if they are genuinely Irish. You can see it in many comments on this thread. The reality is there is very little definitive that you could say that is "truly Irish" in an objective manner.

The only "blind and willful ignorance" I see on this thread involves who are claiming that wearing the poppy isn't an Irish thing to do, and that it is an exclusively British thing to do. Neither are true.

Nodin · 29-10-2012 10:52PM

philologos wrote: »

I know fine well what the poppy commemorates. I remember seeing it quite a bit (..........)are true.

...however the poppy bought here fis sold by the Royal British legion funds ex-British service personel and remembers those killed in past conflicts, not just WWI and II.

Feathers · 29-10-2012 11:27PM

I do not wear a poppy, as I don't want to support British occupations, historical or on-going, either financially or symbolically.

philologos wrote: »

It seems like to be Irish is point out how much you're not British. It's a bit ridiculous when one thinks about it objectively.

It would be a great day when we as Irish people can finally put what happened decades, or in many cases centuries ago in the past where they belong.

It's strange that in an appeal to commerate war-dead, of which the biggest emotional draw for most people is the two world wars, people brush over British violence in Ireland 'decades' ago.

It's seems now to be Irish, you have to completely discount our history in order not to seem bitter. I find it strange that the British can commerorate the world wars and the US their independence and no-one bats an eyelid, but if anyone questions 'God save the Queen' being played in Croke Park, or the Queen's visit prior to any apology, the attitude is 'Get over it, that was years ago', even though veterans and people directly affected by these conflicts are still alive.

Fratton Fred · 29-10-2012 11:54PM

Micky Dolenz wrote: »

As a continent, we have come light years in 50-100 years. By and large Europeans have learnt that the best way to proceed is in peace and unity with each other.

Our history is blood soaked for sure, with tens and hundreds of milillions souls lost. That's one positive thing about the EU. The alturnative should not be an option.

Visited this museum recently. http://www.greatwar.co.uk/ypres-salient/museum-in-flanders-fields.htm. The poppy isn't solely a British thing.

Incredibly moving place isn't it.

don't think Irish people "get" the poppy the same way as British people do.

We had conscription, something which Ireland didn't experience. Many, if not most, of those young men who died in the slaughter at the Somme, Paschendale etc. were no different to the average After Hours poster, except they lived in a time where total all out war was a reality. Wearing a poppy and observing remembrance day is the only way I know to appropriately remember them.

It's a shame it is seen as a political symbol because it is a genuine attempt at remembering the futility and sacrifice of war and for the UK it acknowledges the dedication and courage of those service men and women who are involved in an ongoing and costly conflict.

If you don't want to wear one, fine, i won't argue that anyone should wear one, but i would ask that mine and other people's decision to wear one is respected.

Judgement Day · 30-10-2012 12:02AM

Feathers wrote: »

I do not wear a poppy, as I don't want to support British occupations, historical or on-going, either financially or symbolically.

It's strange that in an appeal to commerate war-dead, of which the biggest emotional draw for most people is the two world wars, people brush over British violence in Ireland 'decades' ago.

It's seems now to be Irish, you have to completely discount our history in order not to seem bitter. I find it strange that the British can commerorate the world wars and the US their independence and no-one bats an eyelid, but if anyone questions 'God save the Queen' being played in Croke Park, or the Queen's visit prior to any apology, the attitude is 'Get over it, that was years ago', even though veterans and people directly affected by these conflicts are still alive.

There's a certain irony in you posting from London (?) capital of a country protected by the very army you clear despise. Very pragmatic of you. Sleep safe in your bed. :rolleyes:

Feathers · 30-10-2012 12:21AM

Judgement Day wrote: »

There's a certain irony in you posting from London (?) capital of a country protected by the very army you clear despise. Very pragmatic of you. Sleep safe in your bed. :rolleyes:

Sure, knew this would come up. Personally, I draw the line at giving to the British Legion & don't think it's hypocritical of me to do so; there's a difference between living in the country & supporting its war effort. In the same way that I wouldn't see it as hypocritical to live here & honour our own war dead.

Regarding protection, personally I would've thought that the activities of the British military are probably making London less safe rather than more safe.

Jimoslimos · 30-10-2012 12:23AM

Fratton Fred wrote: »

It's a shame it is seen as a political symbol because it is a genuine attempt at remembering the futility and sacrifice of war and for the UK it acknowledges the dedication and courage of those service men and women who are involved in an ongoing and costly conflict.

I'm genuinely confused on how you can marry a symbol supposed to signify the futility of war with one supporting current troops in conflict.

Personally I can think of better ways to honour those who died in the wars than a tacky piece of red plastic. Endeavouring to ensure the likes of which never happens again would be a start, demanding valid reasons for sending troops to war, expecting the highest standard from those serving abroad and at home, etc,. Somehow popping a few bob in a RBL collection box seems the lazy and easy way out.

Fratton Fred · 30-10-2012 12:45AM

Jimoslimos wrote: »

I'm genuinely confused on how you can marry a symbol supposed to signify the futility of war with one supporting current troops in conflict.

Personally I can think of better ways to honour those who died in the wars than a tacky piece of red plastic. Endeavouring to ensure the likes of which never happens again would be a start, demanding valid reasons for sending troops to war, expecting the highest standard from those serving abroad and at home, etc,. Somehow popping a few bob in a RBL collection box seems the lazy and easy way out.

War is, unfortunately, a necessary evil at times. How else is the UN going to get anything done unless people are prepared to put on a blue beret and pick up a gun.

Nodin · 30-10-2012 01:30AM

Fratton Fred wrote: »

War is, unfortunately, a necessary evil at times. How else is the UN going to get anything done unless people are prepared to put on a blue beret and pick up a gun.

You'll find its not UN missions that people have a problem with.

Fratton Fred · 30-10-2012 08:42AM

Nodin wrote: »

You'll find its not UN missions that people have a problem with.

Really? Why all the mention of Afghanistan then?

philologos · 30-10-2012 09:52AM

Feathers wrote: »

It's strange that in an appeal to commerate war-dead, of which the biggest emotional draw for most people is the two world wars, people brush over British violence in Ireland 'decades' ago.

It's seems now to be Irish, you have to completely discount our history in order not to seem bitter. I find it strange that the British can commerorate the world wars and the US their independence and no-one bats an eyelid, but if anyone questions 'God save the Queen' being played in Croke Park, or the Queen's visit prior to any apology, the attitude is 'Get over it, that was years ago', even though veterans and people directly affected by these conflicts are still alive.

I think people brush over Irish violence against Britain when reviewing its history. It's not about discounting history, its looking at it honestly and objectively without being afraid to step over a few sacred cows on the way.

It seems like being skeptical of events such as the 1916 Easter Rising, the 1921 "War of Independence", Bobby Sands hunger strike in 1981 somehow means renouncing your Irish identity. Being willing to critically evaluate history is something that isn't possible without being condemned for not buying the propaganda.

NinjaK · 30-10-2012 09:53AM

A Gaelic Irishman wearing a poppy is like a Jew wearing a swastika.

Nodin · 30-10-2012 10:15AM

Fratton Fred wrote: »

Really? Why all the mention of Afghanistan then?

I've never mentioned it. Two people mentioned it, in 16 pages. Three, if we count you.

Nodin · 30-10-2012 10:26AM

philologos wrote: »

I think people brush over Irish violence against Britain when reviewing its history........

I WONDER WHY......ffs. Who was the aggressor there, do ye reckon?

Tell me, are you ok with the people involved with these conflicts and these incidents in particular receiving your cash?

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2011/apr/09/malaya-massacre-villagers-coverup

http://www.thenational.ae/news/world/africa/cyprus-torture-victim-still-seeking-uk-apology

http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2012/apr/23/british-empire-crimes-ignore-atrocities

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2012/feb/07/iraq-death-secret-detention-camp

Father Damo · 30-10-2012 10:26AM

Sound of Silence wrote: »

Two of my Great-Grandparents fought in the First World War with the British Military.

My Grandfather has never worn the Poppy to honour his Father's service, and has never really displayed any desire to. I think that most people honour their relatives as people, rather than as Soldiers, as it's their service as Parents and Family Members which are often their most valued qualities.

I think that wearing the Poppy often serves as tacit support for the some of the less admirable actions of the British Military, and for that reason I'm left a bit cold.

tbh there had been so many failed rebellions and associated suffering that by the 20th century many Irish people regarded the British army and clerical service as a source of employment from something they believed they would never get rid of, much like the Scottish. No to mention that in W.W I many Republicans openly advocated supporting the war effort in the belief that the British would owe us a favour for our assistance.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/defence/6937759/Official-2500-ex-servicemen-are-in-prison.html

Whatever about the post trumatic stress, a large proportion of them are simply knackerly little scrotes. With all due respect, most ambulance crews see more distressing scenes on arrival at god knows how many car accidents and murder scenes down the years than a soldier would in this day and age of most of the actual killing being commited by jet fighters and long distance guns, and to my knowledge few paramedics end up in jail blaming their nightmares for their predicament. I am not saying they have not witnessed some awful scenes but it is likely a cop out for most of them.

Fratton Fred · 30-10-2012 10:36AM

Nodin wrote: »

I've never mentioned it. Two people mentioned it, in 16 pages. Three, if we count you.

Then you should re -read the thread. Plenty of talk about ongoing conflicts and occupations.

Fratton Fred · 30-10-2012 10:39AM

Father Damo wrote: »

tbh there had been so many failed rebellions and associated suffering that by the 20th century many Irish people regarded the British army and clerical service as a source of employment from something they believed they would never get rid of, much like the Scottish. No to mention that in W.W I many Republicans openly advocated supporting the war effort in the belief that the British would owe us a favour for our assistance.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/defence/6937759/Official-2500-ex-servicemen-are-in-prison.html

Whatever about the post trumatic stress, a large proportion of them are simply knackerly little scrotes. With all due respect, most ambulance crews see more distressing scenes on arrival at god knows how many car accidents and murder scenes down the years than a soldier would in this day and age of most of the actual killing being commited by jet fighters and long distance guns, and to my knowledge few paramedics end up in jail blaming their nightmares for their predicament. I am not saying they have not witnessed some awful scenes but it is likely a cop out for most of them.

You should ask the military forum about this, see what their opinion is.

If you have the balls.

Nodin · 30-10-2012 10:41AM

Fratton Fred wrote: »

Then you should re -read the thread. Plenty of talk about ongoing conflicts and occupations.

There's a few. Only two mention Afghanistan specifically.

Manach · 30-10-2012 10:42AM

I'd respect ordinary soldiers of any hue, but my preference would be to wear a O.N.E. charity sticker denoting support of ex-Irish army personnel.

philologos · 30-10-2012 11:44AM

Nodin wrote: »

I WONDER WHY......ffs. Who was the aggressor there, do ye reckon?

Tell me, are you ok with the people involved with these conflicts and these incidents in particular receiving your cash?

In the Irish case its a mixed bag actually when we consider it honestly including the IRA bombing campaign in mainland Britain despite most people in Northern Ireland wanting to remain in the union or current paramilitary republican violence in Northern Ireland.

LordSutch · 30-10-2012 11:55AM

Madam wrote: »

I wouldn't imagine there'd be much of a 'top up' as there can't be that many Irishmen or women who have served in the British forces in recent years - least not in the last 40 or 50 years.

You'd be surprised how many men from the ROI have (and are currently) serving in Irish regiments. Regarding WWII veterans, well nowadays its mostly their next of kin/widows who benefit from the Irish Poppy appeal fund, not forgetting Leopardstown Park Hospital in south Dublin which does a great job with many of the elderly veterans.

Sheeps · 30-10-2012 12:43PM

NinjaK wrote: »

A Gaelic Irishman wearing a poppy is like a Jew wearing a swastika.

Your analogy is rubbish because there were no Jews fighting for Nazi Germany in Hitlers Army where as there were a great deal of Irish men who have served (with pride, and rightfully so) in the British armed forces through out history.

gallag · 30-10-2012 01:09PM

I often wonder if things would have been a lot worse for the nationalists in ni if it was not the British army fighting a guerilla war in its own territory. I would think things could have been a lot worse, sure there were bad choices but I can't help but think with the IRA bombing civilian and security forces without thought for any convention or caring for morals the British showed a lot of restraint. Could have been handled better for sure but I would think if it was a Russian or American or Chinese etc government fighting a guerilla war in its own territory things could have been a lot worse.

Surly even the most hardline nationalists understand the IRA forced the British into a dirty war, it's not like the said let's meet in a field and duke it out. I am sure the British would have rather got on with democracy with the hope of off loading the tax drain that is ni.

Anyone that disagrees could tell me how you would have fought against the IRA on a murder campaign without any collateral damage?

gobnaitolunacy · 30-10-2012 01:09PM

Sheeps wrote: »

Your analogy is rubbish because there were no Jews fighting for Nazi Germany in Hitlers Army where as there were a great deal of Irish men who have served (with pride, and rightfully so) in the British armed forces through out history.

Oh?
http://www.amazon.com/Lives-Hitlers-Jewish-Soldiers-Descent/dp/0700616381

Right, back to the thread.

Why would an Irish person wear a poppy ?

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